Multi checkride without published Vmc?

denverpilot

denverpilot

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DenverPilot
Wonder what triggered this change... FAA Instrument ACS June 2018 update...

"All applicants without a multiengine airplane center thrust limitation will now be required to supply an airplane with a published VMC when accomplishing the test in a multiengine airplane."

So what airplane do you suppose someone showed up in -- that didn't have one -- for an Instrument rating ride?

By the way, almost all of the ACS documents got updates that apply on June 11, for various things, in case folks didn't notice... every one of these documents...

 
Other than maybe a Skymaster, the only ME planes that I can think of that don’t have a ‘published’ VMC would be warbirds like the B-25 or maybe some jets?
 
MauleSkinner said:
Somebody had a 337, or maybe an Aero Commander?
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Maybe that's what they're saying, someone had a standard ME and they showed up for an instrument ride in a centerline thrust airplane, and FAA now says "nope" on that?

Makes sense I suppose...
 
denverpilot said:
Maybe that's what they're saying, someone had a standard ME and they showed up for an instrument ride in a centerline thrust airplane, and FAA now says "nope" on that?

Makes sense I suppose...
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That would make sense. If they already had gotten the ME before the instrument rating.
 
Fearless Tower said:
That would make sense. If they already had gotten the ME before the instrument rating.
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Yeah but why? What does having a published VMC have to do with the instrument checkride? It’s not like the IR eliminates the centerline thrust restriction.
 
denverpilot said:
Maybe that's what they're saying, someone had a standard ME and they showed up for an instrument ride in a centerline thrust airplane, and FAA now says "nope" on that?

Makes sense I suppose...
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I would suspect there was always an "assumption" that somebody without a centerline thrust limitation wouldn't be flying a centerline thrust airplane when they added instrument privileges. Either somebody showed up with a centerline thrust airplane and the question was asked, or somebody just discovered a loophole that they wanted to plug.
 
Banjo33 said:
Yeah but why? What does having a published VMC have to do with the instrument checkride? It’s not like the IR eliminates the centerline thrust restriction.
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You have to do a single engine approach as part of the ME Instrument checkride.
 
Banjo33 said:
Yeah but why? What does having a published VMC have to do with the instrument checkride? It’s not like the IR eliminates the centerline thrust restriction.
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I think Nate got it right. Vmc is the FAAs convoluted way of saying if you have a ME without the centreline thrust limitation you can't do your instrument ride in a centreline thrust airplane.
 
Banjo33 said:
Yeah but why? What does having a published VMC have to do with the instrument checkride? It’s not like the IR eliminates the centerline thrust restriction.
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The checkride involves engine-out operations, even if you already hold a VFR multi. It's necessary to demonstrate those skills on instruments if you're going to have those privileges.
 
Fearless Tower said:
You have to do a single engine approach as part of the ME Instrument checkride.
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But if you have an IR and ME with centerline thrust restriction, don’t you have to do a single engine approach to remove the centerline thrust restriction (and get the VMC demo)?

Edit to add the rest of my thought: in that case, you’d still be limited to centerline only, even if you added the IR.
 
GRG55 said:
I think Nate got it right. Vmc is the FAAs convoluted way of saying if you have a ME without the centreline thrust limitation you can't do your instrument ride in a centreline thrust airplane.
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Ah...that makes sense. Wasn’t reading it that way.
 
Banjo33 said:
But if you have an IR and ME with centerline thrust restriction, don’t you have to do a single engine approach to remove the centerline thrust restriction (and get the VMC demo)?
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I don't think so. The ME centreline thrust restriction remains and your multi IFR privileges are also similarly restricted as a result. If one owns a 337 and that is the only multi one plans to fly this limitation may be fine for them.
 
GRG55 said:
I don't think so. The centreline thrust restriction remains and you multi IFR privileges are also restricted as a result.
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Yeah, I went back and edited that post as that was the rest of the thought I was working on. My stream of consciousness was moving faster than I could type on my phone, lol.
 
Banjo33 said:
Yeah, I went back and edited that post as that was the rest of the thought I was working on. My stream of consciousness was moving faster than I could type on my phone, lol.
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And I posted my last one and then read yours. Sorry! :oops:
 
denverpilot said:
Wonder what triggered this change... FAA Instrument ACS June 2018 update...

"All applicants without a multiengine airplane center thrust limitation will now be required to supply an airplane with a published VMC when accomplishing the test in a multiengine airplane."

So what airplane do you suppose someone showed up in -- that didn't have one -- for an Instrument rating ride?
Click to expand...

Someone probably had a regular multi rating and showed up for their instrument ride in a mixmaster... Or someone at the FAA realized that would be possible and squashed that (remote) possibility.

Banjo33 said:
Yeah but why? What does having a published VMC have to do with the instrument checkride? It’s not like the IR eliminates the centerline thrust restriction.
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No, but if someone had an unrestricted multi rating and then bought a mixmaster and tried to get their instrument added on, I can see how the FAA would want to avoid that. To avoid a "multiengine vfr only" restriction, one must either take their instrument ride in a twin (if already multi rated) or shoot an all-engines approach and an engine-out approach on the multi checkride (if already instrument rated).

There is no "instrument rating limited to centerline thrust" limitation, so they're merely covering the rare/unlikely possibility that a VFR multi-rated pilot *without* the centerline thrust restriction would take the instrument ride in a centerline-thrust airplane, thus "cheating" on the instrument ride.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
There is no "instrument rating limited to centerline thrust" limitation, so they're merely covering the rare/unlikely possibility that a VFR multi-rated pilot *without* the centerline thrust restriction would take the instrument ride in a centerline-thrust airplane, thus "cheating" on the instrument ride.
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There's no "not valid for PIC in conventional gear airplanes" limitation, but I've seen that on a certificate. ;)
 
I believe it had to do with Air Cam multi training. If I’m not mistaken, it is not considered center line thrust, but does not have a Vmc either.
 
MauleSkinner said:
There's no "not valid for PIC in conventional gear airplanes" limitation, but I've seen that on a certificate. ;)
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Ummmm... How does that even make sense? Tailwheel isn't even a rating...

Brad Z said:
I believe it had to do with Air Cam multi training. If I’m not mistaken, it is not considered center line thrust, but does not have a Vmc either.
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Those are one and the same. No Vmc = centerline thrust, even if it's not literally on the centerline. For example, the F/A-18 Hornet is considered centerline thrust even though the engines are side by side because they're so close together that there's no Vmc.
 
Brad Z said:
I believe it had to do with Air Cam multi training. If I’m not mistaken, it is not considered center line thrust, but does not have a Vmc either.
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The Air Cam Flight manual list a Vmc of 43mph.
 
Brad Z said:
I believe it had to do with Air Cam multi training. If I’m not mistaken, it is not considered center line thrust, but does not have a Vmc either.
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Doubtful. You can’t fly IFR in an Air Cam which would preclude doing an instrument checkride in one.


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flyingcheesehead said:
Ummmm... How does that even make sense? Tailwheel isn't even a rating...
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Rolled a vintage taildragger up into a ball, 709 ride didn't go well, but they decided to let him keep his certificate.

Edit...here's the ratings/limitations portion of his certificate from themFAA web site:
Ratings:
PRIVATE PILOT
AIRPLANE SINGLE ENGINE LAND
AIRPLANE MULTIENGINE LAND
INSTRUMENT AIRPLANE


Limits:
NOT VALID FOR FLIGHT IN CONVENTIONAL GEAR EQUIPPED AIRPLANES.
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Speaking of loopholes, by doing my initial multi as a multi ATP I didn't have to get a instructor sign off, or do a VMC demo as I recall.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Those are one and the same. No Vmc = centerline thrust, even if it's not literally on the centerline. For example, the F/A-18 Hornet is considered centerline thrust even though the engines are side by side because they're so close together that there's no Vmc.
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No Vmc is not what was quoted in the original post. It appears that the FAA is closing a loophole for airplanes that are not considered centerline thrust that do not have a PUBLISHED Vmc (but may still in fact have a minimum controllable speed OEI).

I’m not sure what airplanes are available that do not have centerline thrust and no published Vmc, but there must be some. They are likely old airplanes, like what Fearless Tower alluded to.

There is likely a specific situation or school this was targeted at. I can’t imagine that there are too many multis without centerline thrust and without a published Vmc that are regularly used in training and for checkrides.
 
mondtster said:
I’m not sure what airplanes are available that do not have centerline thrust and no published Vmc, but there must be some. They are likely old airplanes, like what Fearless Tower alluded to.

There is likely a specific situation or school this was targeted at. I can’t imagine that there are too many multis without centerline thrust and without a published Vmc that are regularly used in training and for checkrides.
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I don't think that's it. Requiring a published Vmc is probably the only way, or at least the bureaucratic way, of ensuring it's NOT centerline thrust, since Vmc would be a type certification requirement. Without it, then it would be up to the DPE to decide whether an airplane is centerline thrust or not--potentially a subjective decision.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
For example, the F/A-18 Hornet is considered centerline thrust even though the engines are side by side because they're so close together that there's no Vmc.
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The F/A-18, at least pre-E/F/G models, had vicious single engine departure characteristics if you let it get away from you. The Hornet ME centerline thrust rating came about because the NATOPS manual "published" a maximum angle of attack rather than a minimum airspeed with one engine inoperative and the FAA, in its infinite wisdom, did not recognize this as representative of a minimum controllable airspeed.

Nauga,
whose doughnut is yellow
 
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