Mulit time building programs

wabower said:
Dude. You gotta get oh whiney-ass "somebody should be getting paid" wannabe low-time pilot BS. The operators are going to do what they perceive to be in their best interest and that they can serl to their POI. The morality play might work for sharing the swing at grade-school recess, but doesn't work a the airport.
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There are some shady operators out their who's best interest is contrary to the best interest of other parties involved. Since when is disliking a program that takes a job and sells it to someone instead of paying a professional to do it, "whiney-ass, wannabe low-time pilot BS?" I know plenty of high-time, older career pilots who rib on these kind of programs all of the time.
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
Doesn't matter. Pay for job is pay for job, it will follow the pilot through his career. Pilots aren't stupid. Don't pay for seat that should have an employed pilot in it.
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LOL, "follow through his career", to what detriment? At this point., most chief pilots started in a 'pay for your job' program through Flight Safety or Com Air 20 years ago. "Do they have the necessary numbers and certificates? Will they work for peanuts? Will they let us abuse them?" Answer those three questions "yes" and nothing else matters.
 
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rmriter said:
Hey Guys,

I am a Chief Pilot for a company that runs King Airs in California. I have set up a training program for teaching First Officer duties. My web site is at kingairfirstofficer.com. I charge $200 per flight hour for instruction and $75 for ground. My trips are usually international, and/or landing at very busy airports. When you are qualified I am able to provide the high altitude endorsement, a letter of training as a first officer, and a letter of recommendation as being a First Officer with the companies I work for.

This way your not only building up flight time, but also getting the turbine time as well.

Best, Rob
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It is my understanding there was a similar program operating here (KFCM). It came under scrutiny when they had a highly-publicized crash that took the life of Senator Paul Wellstone, his wife and their political entourage. I think it came to end thereafter, but I could be wrong.
 
How is that economically different to the pilot than requiring the pilot to sign a note for his training that ostensibly "should be" paid by the employer?

KSCessnaDriver said:
Doesn't matter. Pay for job is pay for job, it will follow the pilot through his career. Pilots aren't stupid. Don't pay for seat that should have an employed pilot in it.
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wabower said:
How is that economically different to the pilot than requiring the pilot to sign a note for his training that ostensibly "should be" paid by the employer?
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It's not. Both are methods used to prey on young, inexperienced pilots.
 
GCA319 said:
Actually, the real downside to this method is that you are stealing a seat from somebody who should be getting paid to do this job, but is being undercut by someone paying for it.
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I'm guessing that the seat will just be empty if he can't find anyone to pay. A C90 is a single-pilot airplane. I won't comment on whether I think it's good or bad, but it is the free market.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
When multi time building with me, 8+. It's amazing how the normal response is "I don't feel like flying that long in a day."

Danos was the best candidate for this. "Hey, I'm going to Cozumel in the Aztec and need someone to do the trip with me." 30 flights hours in a 48 hour time period, there and back.
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I'll go when I get the rating! Be a few months though
 
I think it's shameful that pilots pay to work. The King Air time is probably worthless except for the occasional dead-leg, so in reality you're probably paying $1,000 per loggable hour. Pilots to pay to work are ruining the industry for those of us who would actually like to make money at our jobs. Just because we enjoy flying doesn't mean we should do it for free, especially with the investment put into the training up to CMEL.
 
Huh? Are we suspending the law of supply and demand just for pilots or does everybody else get a piece of this entitlement?

Z06_Mir said:
I think it's shameful that pilots pay to work. The King Air time is probably worthless except for the occasional dead-leg, so in reality you're probably paying $1,000 per loggable hour. Pilots to pay to work are ruining the industry for those of us who would actually like to make money at our jobs. Just because we enjoy flying doesn't mean we should do it for free, especially with the investment put into the training up to CMEL.
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wabower said:
Huh? Are we suspending the law of supply and demand just for pilots or does everybody else get a piece of this entitlement?
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I don't know, but I heard it now comes with health care. :D
 
Henning said:
Cougars or Turkey Vultures?
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I had to look up turkey vultures, that's one I hadn't heard!

As for who they were... :D

dell30rb said:
I'll go when I get the rating! Be a few months though
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Having a multi isn't required since I'm an MEI, but I think you get more out of the experience once you have your multi. Not to mention you get to log PIC then.
 
wabower said:
If that's true why does SWA require a 737 type rating to get a class date?
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Because by the time you have the class date, you have the job. Pay for training is much different than pay for job. Thankfully somebody who does a pay to fly a C90 as PIC deal is probably too poor to get many hours, in which case it becomes obvious as to how the time was acquired
 
wabower said:
Huh? Are we suspending the law of supply and demand just for pilots or does everybody else get a piece of this entitlement?
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Yep.... It's just supply and demand, folks.

If a pilot is paying for flight time, the other option is probably for that pilot not to fly at all. Should we expect him to just give up?

Nobody hires without experience. You can't get experience if you aren't hired....
 
dans2992 said:
Yep.... It's just supply and demand, folks.

If a pilot is paying for flight time, the other option is probably for that pilot not to fly at all. Should we expect him to just give up?

Nobody hires without experience. You can't get experience if you aren't hired....
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There are other models out there actually, look at how Lufthansa gets their pilots and how much those kids pay....
 
Employers don't pay for pilot training for three reasons:

1. They can hire pilots without incurring the cost.

2. They know that pilots will screw them and take another job in a heartbeat
if they get a better offer.

3. They know that employment contracts are unenforceable and worthless in court.
 
DavidWhite said:
I'm intrigued. What are the hour requirements?
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Hour requirements :rofl: These types of operations just care that the check clears.

Its similar to the 250hr pilots who buy a big type rating.
Every cheif pilot will see it for what it is, a paid "nanny ride" and they ain't going to give you a job flying that type just because of your time "riding" (not flying) in a C90 or whatever.

IMO build the time for real, rent a trainer twin and shot gun some hours with a buddy, go get you a starter FLYING JOB.

Once you have the hours the COMPANY will pay to type you, or train you in a C90 or whatever.


Don't waist your money and the time of the HR folks who will have to look in your logbook and listen to you tell them how you're a C90 "First Officer"...
 
wabower said:
Employers don't pay for pilot training for three reasons:

1. They can hire pilots without incurring the cost.

2. They know that pilots will screw them and take another job in a heartbeat
if they get a better offer.

3. They know that employment contracts are unenforceable and worthless in court.
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Funny, I've never paid for training, employers have always covered it, maybe it's because they want their aircraft flown in a certain manner...

And for retention, that's easy, pay fairly and run a good ship, look at places like CalFire and Jet Works, they take care of their guys, train em' and not many people jump ship.
 
In what types are you rated?
NineThreeKilo said:
Funny, I've never paid for training, employers have always covered it, maybe it's because they want their aircraft flown in a certain manner...

And for retention, that's easy, pay fairly and run a good ship, look at places like CalFire and Jet Works, they take care of their guys, train em' and not many people jump ship.
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wabower said:
In what types are you rated?
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In my corner of the industry there arent many aircraft in use that require a type rating.

As for training, had a good amount of training when I first got into AG, good amount of money spent on training for the C208B and recently one company which has been barking up my tree wants to send me to Toronto for twin otter training... all of this covered by the employer(s)

Any company that is SOOO cheap as to not invest thier employees and in pilot training is not a company you would want to work for anyway.

Are they too cheap or broke? (one tends to follow the other)

Do they maintain their aircraft or "defer" things they shouldn't?

Are my paychecks going to bounce?

Is the atmosphere going to suck?

These are the types of questions that go through my head when a company isn't willing to invest in their pilots / invest in saftey and invest in their own business.


Long and short, NEVER pay for a job, dont fly for cheap/broke operations, build your experience and find a REAL company to work for.
 
None, but only have three. Got enough sim time/experience in another dozen or so to qualify for 91 SIC, but have only done so in a few planes owned by friends.

Types are Citation 500 (all models up to the 560 Excel) 650 (III, VI, VII) and G-V (350-450-G550.) I paid for the check ride in the Citation 500.

Henning said:
How many type ratings did you pay for out of pocket?
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wabower said:
None, but only have three. Got enough sim time/experience in another dozen or so to qualify for 91 SIC, but have only done so in a few planes owned by friends.

Types are Citation 500 (all models up to the 560 Excel) 650 (III, VI, VII) and G-V (350-450-G550.) I paid for the check ride in the Citation 500.
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So, employers paid for them, gotcha.
 
Mine were all part of other business transactions and relationships, none from coming up through the pilot ranks. Totally different dynamics and no comparison to the market.

I'm flying whenever and wherever I want to go, and nowhere when anybody else wants to go.

NineThreeKilo said:
Then when Henning asked how many you paid for




:dunno:


How many hours are you logging a month on average?
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You can be assured that nobody else really gives a rats what you think about this subject, especially with your limited experience and background on the subject.

If the right job shows up, and if one of the conditions is paying for the training, you'll have a decision to make. If your response is NWJ regarding training costs, you'll get to keep on doing whatever you're doing and somebody else will get the job.

Whether job turns out to be great or not-so-great is another imponderable that nobody knows up front. If it turns out good, whoever gets it will probably be happy they bought the training. If it turns out bad, having the training might or might not create another opportunity that wouldn't have been available before. If it turns out really bad, they might end up with a cancelled check for the training and no job. Some days chicken, some days feathers.


NineThreeKilo said:
Then when Henning asked how many you paid for




:dunno:


How many hours are you logging a month on average?
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NineThreeKilo said:
In my corner of the industry there arent many aircraft in use that require a type rating.

As for training, had a good amount of training when I first got into AG, good amount of money spent on training for the C208B and recently one company which has been barking up my tree wants to send me to Toronto for twin otter training... all of this covered by the employer(s)

Any company that is SOOO cheap as to not invest thier employees and in pilot training is not a company you would want to work for anyway.

Are they too cheap or broke? (one tends to follow the other)

Do they maintain their aircraft or "defer" things they shouldn't?

Are my paychecks going to bounce?

Is the atmosphere going to suck?

These are the types of questions that go through my head when a company isn't willing to invest in their pilots / invest in saftey and invest in their own business.


Long and short, NEVER pay for a job, dont fly for cheap/broke operations, build your experience and find a REAL company to work for.
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wabower said:
You can be assured that nobody else really gives a rats what you think about this subject, especially with your limited experience and background on the subject.
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Sounds like someone needs a hug

wabower said:
especially with your limited experience and background on the subject.
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So you skirted that question I always enjoy asking you, seeing how little experience I have, do tell, guru of the inter web, how many hours do you log per month?
 
NineThreeKilo;1269140]
Sounds like someone needs a hug.
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Not nearly as badly as somebody needs to get over himself.


So you skirted that question I always enjoy asking you, seeing how little experience I have, do tell, guru of the inter web, how many hours do you log per month?
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Again doofus-boy, all I want to fly and whenever and wherever I want to go. ~30 hours is the most for any month this year. OOC, are you looking for a log-book measuring contest that you can't win?

The 40+ pilots I've hired have probably averaged ~250 hours per year in the King Air, Citation and Gulfstream jobs they currently hold, based on what they tell me from time to time.
 
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wabower said:
NineThreeKilo;1269140]



Not nearly as badly as somebody needs to get over himself.




Again doofus-boy, all I want to fly and whenever and wherever I want to go. ~30 hours is the most for any month this year. OOC, are you looking for a log-book measuring contest that you can't win?

The 40+ pilots I've hired have probably averaged ~250 hours per year in the King Air, Citation and Gulfstream jobs they currently hold, based on what they tell me from time to time.
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So your opinion here is from the vantage point of a non-working pilot who, as you stated, never worked through the ranks as a pro pilot...

And honestly measuring a hardly currant pilots old hours is right up there with wearing your old highschool varsity jacket as a adult, you very well could have been a AWSOME hobby pilot back in the day, but with what youre logging now and as you've stated you never honestly worked for a living as a pilot... Well let's just say you ain't swinging the 12" you think you are :rolleyes:
 
Someday you may figure out that doing things because you want to rather than because you have to isn't all bad, and doing them on your terms is even better.

And maybe you'll figure out the pay and working conditions in some parts of the aviation industry are orders of magnitude better than whatever comforts you may find on sheepskin seats.

I understand that in your case it's a long shot that you'll ever understand much of anything, but keep trying long enough and maybe some of the easy stuff will soak in.

NineThreeKilo said:
So your opinion here is from the vantage point of a non-working pilot who, as you stated, never worked through the ranks as a pro pilot...

And honestly measuring a hardly currant pilots old hours is right up there with wearing your old highschool varsity jacket as a adult, you very well could have been a AWSOME hobby pilot back in the day, but with what youre logging now and as you've stated you never honestly worked for a living as a pilot... It's not all that impressive.
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wabower said:
Someday you may figure out that doing things because you want to rather than because you have to isn't all bad, and doing them on your terms is even better.

And maybe you'll figure out the pay and working conditions in some parts of the aviation industry are orders of magnitude better than whatever comforts you may find on sheepskin seats.

I understand that in your case it's a long shot that you'll ever understand much of anything, but keep trying long enough and maybe some of the easy stuff will soak in.
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Well a couple cars, a bike, plane, all free and clear, good chunk put away and no debt, I can't complain about what flying was brought me, again I'm not playing the airline game, I do what I enjoy for a living, my customers and employers are happy, I'm able to do what I want. Guess I have much to learn eh?!

Well I'll leave ya alone, don't want to be accused of elder abuse
 
Safe to assume that's the same plane you complained about not being able to fly because you work all the time?

Since you seem to be concerned about monthly time logged, how much have you booked this year going places you wanted to go with no time constraints or other obligations?

NineThreeKilo said:
Well a couple cars, a bike, plane, all free and clear, good chunk put away and no debt, I can't complain about what flying was brought me, again I'm not playing the airline game, I do what I enjoy for a living, my customers and employers are happy, I'm able to do what I want. Guess I have much to learn eh?!

Well I'll leave ya alone, don't want to be accused of elder abuse
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NineThreeKilo said:
Well I'll leave ya alone, don't want to be accused of elder abuse
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I've learned he's like the old airport bum and to ignore him as such. Once in a while, they have a good thought, but most of the time they just spout BS.
 
Tell us about all the fun you're having flying your plane.



KSCessnaDriver said:
I've learned he's like the old airport bum and to ignore him as such. Once in a while, they have a good thought, but most of the time they just spout BS.
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RotorAndWing said:
I think that desk earned enough money to afford several really nice airplanes, along with several other perks. :rolleyes:

Life's a journey, not a destination.
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Not to mention the desk he had ended up having him log more work-related flying hours a year than a number of professional pilots I know.
 
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