Mulit time building programs

[Danos]

I see a lot of muliti engine time building programs that look great but they're all trying to sell something. Does anyone have any experience with any of these programs? If so what should I be on the lookout for? I already found that most of the rates are dry and half the time is safety pilot time. Trying to get things lined up. Thanks.

 

[KennyFlys]

I can't recall the exact numbers but... my school has a deal where one can buy a ten hour block and the regular $218 an hour is dropped down to an effective $198 per hour. I may be off on the lesser amount but it may be only $188. The rates are wet.

You can fly it alone or you could work it with a safety pilot. If you're trying to build say fifty hours of multi PIC, it would be a nice addition to have some other time as SIC, acting as safety pilot. To top it, while the partner is acting as safety pilot, you get to log simulated instrument.

I present this only as how it works for some. To rent the Duchess from my school, one has to have either 50 multi-engine or receive twenty hours of ME training at that school. I'm sure there are similar requirements at other schools.

I'd think if you looked around, you might find a similar deal nearby.

 

[poadeleted20]

Seems like you've already figured out that there ain't no such thing as a free lunch. Keep on reading the fine print.

 

[Teller1900]

If you find something cheap in the New England area, let me know and I'll fly with you...I need to get my 2,000TT as quick as possible! FWIW, I went to ATP (they're all about the multi-time). They're probably on the expensive side if you're just wanting the twin time and not a half dozen ratings.

 

[Teller1900]

If you're trying to build say fifty hours of multi PIC, it would be a nice addition to have some other time as SIC, acting as safety pilot.

It's not SIC time unless the a/c is certified for two pilots and the SIC is a required crew member. With a single-pilot certified plane, it's either you both log PIC (one as PIC and the one under the hood is the "sole manipulator of the controls) or only one logs PIC and no one gets SIC.

To top it, while the partner is acting as safety pilot, you get to log simulated instrument.

Just make sure he's not reading a book while you're under the hood!

 

[flyingcheesehead]

It's not SIC time unless the a/c is certified for two pilots and the SIC is a required crew member. With a single-pilot certified plane, it's either you both log PIC (one as PIC and the one under the hood is the "sole manipulator of the controls) or only one logs PIC and no one gets SIC.

Uhhh...

Go read 61.51(f)(2) and 91.109(b)(1), and justify your statements... Or let us know what you learned.

Signed,

A guy who's glad the 1.2 SIC in his logbook is legal.

 

[KennyFlys]

Oh cool. I don't have to argue the safety pilot issue! Go get 'em, Kent!

Tis okay, Matt. That's such an oft misunderstood FAR, it's nearly insane. I'd be suspect if someone had had a lot of SP time in singles but ME represents significant expense and the other pilot using a hood significantly adds to its benefit.

 

[poadeleted20]

A lot of those programs have people building ME time by putting the pilot flying under the hood and having the pilot not fly act as PIC, allowing both pilots to log ME PIC time simultaneously (at least, as long as the pilot flying is hooded). Note that this requires the safety pilot to be fully PIC qualified and current as opposed to merely having requisite category/class ratings and a current medical to log it as SIC time. Personally, I'm not sure the safety pilot is getting very valuable PIC experience, and I have no idea how the airlines view such time, but per the regs Ed quoted (as confirmed by the FAA Chief Counsel's office), it is legal to do it this way.

 

[jwriteclub]

My comment on the original question is that there will be a range in the rates. Chances are that if you are looking at 150-170/hr wet multi time, the plane will be a dog, but it will probably be legit. $150 or less/hr (wet) multi and there's got to be something you don't see.

~ Christopher

 

[tonycondon]

A lot of those programs have people building ME time by putting the pilot flying under the hood and having the pilot not fly act as PIC, allowing both pilots to log ME PIC time simultaneously (at least, as long as the pilot flying is hooded). Note that this requires the safety pilot to be fully PIC qualified and current as opposed to merely having requisite category/class ratings and a current medical to log it as SIC time. Personally, I'm not sure the safety pilot is getting very valuable PIC experience, and I have no idea how the airlines view such time, but per the regs Ed quoted (as confirmed by the FAA Chief Counsel's office), it is legal to do it this way.

since the people going through ATP and the like (like our own Matt Teller) are getting airline jobs, that time must be good enough for them. Maybe Matt can comment on the value of the PIC time gotten in this environment. After reading extensively on his blog and talking to him about the training regiment that he went through, i think it was a good preparation for his commercial and eventual airline job.

 

[poadeleted20]

since the people going through ATP and the like (like our own Matt Teller) are getting airline jobs, that time must be good enough for them.

I don't believe ATP uses the hood-swapping system to build time -- I think their 75 hours of ME XC time is all left-seat, and the rest is built working as an MEI.

 

[tonycondon]

hmm i always figured since they flew the seminoles with two students in them, that they used the hood so both could log it. i guess matt will just have to chime in here and set me straight.

 

[Teller1900]

hmm i always figured since they flew the seminoles with two students in them, that they used the hood so both could log it. i guess matt will just have to chime in here and set me straight.

In the words of Ed McMahon "You are correct, sir!" In the ATP program, once you finish your instrument rating, you go through 5 hours in the sim and 3 hours in the plane of CRM and dual pilot training. In the sim it's all about diagnosing and handling failures as a two pilot crew (everything from slow engine over temp to total com failures, and pretty much everything else the sim can do). In the plane it's more like a LOFT flight...with an instructor you fly one way (I went from PHX to YUM) in the left seat as the FP only - he handles the radios and navigation. Then on the way back, you do everything from the right seat to get used to things over there.

Once you're done and signed off from that, you're released to ATP "Dispatch" and turned lose on your cross countries. Every morning by 0730 you call in, they give you a partner, a tail number, and a destination. From there it's up to you and your partner to get the plane ready, do the preflight, get filed, and get in the air by 0930ish. Everything is flown as a two pilot crew, with the PF "under the hood" and the PNF handling the radios, GPSs, charts, etc. It's up to you and your partner to decide who sits in which seat, but this whole thing is designed to foster good CRM, verbal checklist usage, and use of callouts (ATP's callouts are very similar to what we use here at CJC, so they seem to be basing them on what some airlines use).

The 75 hours isn't all as the PF, though. As Tony said, it's half PF and half NFP. The PF is always supposed to be under the hood, and logs time from the Out/In hobbs (engine hobbs) and the PNF logs time from the Off/On hobbs (tied to the squat switch on new planes and an aerodynamic switch next to the pitot tube on the older planes). I don't think they'd be nearly as profitable as they are if they had to give 75 hours to everyone that comes through there, and I think they got some kind of insurance break for being able to always say that there's two pilots in the planes.

Once you're done with the cross countries you have, I think, 3-5 hours with an instructor again before going up for your commercial multi ride.

 

[siegelaviation]

I don't believe ATP uses the hood-swapping system to build time -- I think their 75 hours of ME XC time is all left-seat, and the rest is built working as an MEI.

As far as I know, they use safety pilot time. And some of their quoted multi time is spent in a BATD or AATD.

 

[Teller1900]

As far as I know, they use safety pilot time. And some of their quoted multi time is spent in a BATD or AATD.

20 Hours are done in "the box."

EDIT: Ok, for whatever reason it won't take the link for the pictures of the Frasca we used at KIWA, so here's the original blog page where I showed the pictures, if you're curious...about halfway down the page.

 

[Chairboy]

On another board, I once read about an interesting time-building operation in twins down in the Gulf of Mexico I think. They charged some low rate that came out to like $50-100 an hour or something cheap like that, and you sit in the left seat and fly an oil rig inspection route. The oil company has their pilot/CFI in the right seat, they meet an insurance requirement for two crew, and you get super cheap twin time. The downside, of course, is not that you're building 100+ hours, you're building the same hour 100 times. Clever.

 

[jwriteclub]

That is actually interesting.

~ Christopher

 

[ntbjounin]

well, now that fuel costs an arm and BOTH legs.... what have you all found on multi time building programs? I've seen APPP, $10,000 for 100 hrs.... i guess that seems ok, but i only need like 40 hrs. yes i could buy the $5000 for 50 hrs, but anyone else find anything better?

or is there anyone out there with a twin who just wants to fly around with me while i pay for gas? i'll fly to you in order to fly with you! (im in dallas)

 

[TMetzinger]

It's not SIC time unless the a/c is certified for two pilots and the SIC is a required crew member. With a single-pilot certified plane, it's either you both log PIC (one as PIC and the one under the hood is the "sole manipulator of the controls) or only one logs PIC and no one gets SIC.
just make sure he's not reading a book while you're under the hood!

I imagine others have chimed in, but this is incorrect.

A pilot can log SIC time whenever he is acting as SIC in an airplane that requires two crewmembers. He can also log SIC when the regulations under which the flight is conducted require two crewmembers, even if the airplane does not.
From 61.51(f):
Logging second-in-command flight time. A person may log second-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person:
(1) Is qualified in accordance with the second-in-command requirements of § 61.55 of this part, and occupies a crewmember station in an aircraft that requires more than one pilot by the aircraft's type certificate; or
(2) Holds the appropriate category, class, and instrument rating (if an instrument rating is required for the flight) for the aircraft being flown, and more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is being conducted.

Simulated instrument flying is one of the times the regs require two crew, so the safety pilot can be acting as PIC and logging PIC, or not be acting as PIC and log SIC. If you're flying under part 135 and your op specs require two pilots, even though the airplane doesn't, your SIC gets to log SIC too.

 

[KennyFlys]

Simulated instrument flying is one of the times the regs require two crew, so the safety pilot can be acting as PIC and logging PIC, or not be acting as PIC and log SIC.

ATP was loading up students with safety pilot time. It got to the point ASA was auditing logbooks upon the initial interview. More than a few times, total time was knocked down by a substantial number as a result of the audit. The airlines are getting tighter again so they may be back to auditing the logbooks.

Some safety pilot is fine, but a hundred hours?

 

[Danos]

well, now that fuel costs an arm and BOTH legs.... what have you all found on multi time building programs? I've seen APPP, $10,000 for 100 hrs.... i guess that seems ok, but i only need like 40 hrs. yes i could buy the $5000 for 50 hrs, but anyone else find anything better?

or is there anyone out there with a twin who just wants to fly around with me while i pay for gas? i'll fly to you in order to fly with you! (im in dallas)

It's looking like I got a gig that will allow me to build multi time fast but I'll have to skip town for a while. If it all goes as planned I'll be leaving in about a month. Let me know if you're willing to relocate and I'll find out if they need anyone else if/when I get in.

 

[TMetzinger]

ATP was loading up students with safety pilot time. It got to the point ASA was auditing logbooks upon the initial interview. More than a few times, total time was knocked down by a substantial number as a result of the audit. The airlines are getting tighter again so they may be back to auditing the logbooks.

Some safety pilot is fine, but a hundred hours?

I agree that 100 hours of safety pilot time in a year or even two may not be worth much to the airlines.

Most of the Majors call for turbine PIC time, as the time when you were captain and signing for the airplane. Even though you're in perfect compliance to log all the time you spent flying the airplane as PIC (while acting as SIC), they'll discount it.

It's their line, they can make up their rules. A digital logbook is helpful here as you can have the "FAA" version according to 61.51, and then have other versions to meet the supplemental requirements of whoever is reviewing the logs.

 

[teich]

It's looking like I got a gig that will allow me to build multi time fast but I'll have to skip town for a while. If it all goes as planned I'll be leaving in about a month. Let me know if you're willing to relocate and I'll find out if they need anyone else if/when I get in.

What area is this in and what's the time frame that you're looking at?

 

[rmriter]

Hey Guys,

I am a Chief Pilot for a company that runs King Airs in California. I have set up a training program for teaching First Officer duties. My web site is at kingairfirstofficer.com. I charge $200 per flight hour for instruction and $75 for ground. My trips are usually international, and/or landing at very busy airports. When you are qualified I am able to provide the high altitude endorsement, a letter of training as a first officer, and a letter of recommendation as being a First Officer with the companies I work for.

This way your not only building up flight time, but also getting the turbine time as well.

Best, Rob

 

[DavidWhite]

Hey Guys,

I am a Chief Pilot for a company that runs King Airs in California. I have set up a training program for teaching First Officer duties. My web site is at kingairfirstofficer.com. I charge $200 per flight hour for instruction and $75 for ground. My trips are usually international, and/or landing at very busy airports. When you are qualified I am able to provide the high altitude endorsement, a letter of training as a first officer, and a letter of recommendation as being a First Officer with the companies I work for.

This way your not only building up flight time, but also getting the turbine time as well.

Best, Rob

I'm intrigued. What are the hour requirements?

 

[rmriter]

I'm intrigued. What are the hour requirements?

You need to have at least your Multi-engine rating. This way you can log PIC as the C90 is under the type rating requirement of 12,500 lbs.

 

[Henning]

You need to have at least your Multi-engine rating. This way you can log PIC as the C90 is under the type rating requirement of 12,500 lbs.

So, you are renting the candidates a King Air for $200hr? Are you having them fly deadhead legs of charters for $200hr? I looked at your website and I'm interested, just trying to figure out your structure and how you are giving PIC time in the operation of a single pilot aircraft.

 

[wabower]

What's the reasonable expection of hours per day?

 

[bbchien]

Well I sure doubt the 135 certificate allow you to flight train on revenue flights. That leaves dead legs only.

 

[Ted]

What's the reasonable expection of hours per day?

When multi time building with me, 8+. It's amazing how the normal response is "I don't feel like flying that long in a day."

Danos was the best candidate for this. "Hey, I'm going to Cozumel in the Aztec and need someone to do the trip with me." 30 flights hours in a 48 hour time period, there and back.

 

[Henning]

When multi time building with me, 8+. It's amazing how the normal response is "I don't feel like flying that long in a day."

Danos was the best candidate for this. "Hey, I'm going to Cozumel in the Aztec and need someone to do the trip with me." 30 flights hours in a 48 hour time period, there and back.

You need someone on long days, give a shout.

 

[wabower]

Just trying to get a feel for the economics. The trainee would reasonably expect to incur lodging and travel expenses to wherever the plane is based, so if a pilot wanted to accumulate 20 hours would that take two days or two weeks?

Along the same lines, if a m/e-rated pilot is sitting in the right seat and the pilot tells him to engage the autopilot and he pushes the buttons to do so, is he the sole manipulator for time logging purposes while the autopilot is engaged?

When multi time building with me, 8+. It's amazing how the normal response is "I don't feel like flying that long in a day."

Danos was the best candidate for this. "Hey, I'm going to Cozumel in the Aztec and need someone to do the trip with me." 30 flights hours in a 48 hour time period, there and back.

 

[Ted]

Just trying to get a feel for the economics. The trainee would reasonably expect to incur lodging and travel expenses to wherever the plane is based, so if a pilot wanted to accumulate 20 hours would that take two days or two weeks?

Along the same lines, if a m/e-rated pilot is sitting in the right seat and the pilot tells him to engage the autopilot and he pushes the buttons to do so, is he the sole manipulator for time logging purposes while the autopilot is engaged?

The way I always worked it was "This is when I'm flying. Show up, you'll get 8-16 hours in 1-2 days." Danos had the pleasure (or horror) of spending the 30 hours in the Aztec with me in a 48 hour period.

The specifics of how much I've let the person with me fly and log are varied depending on my mood, the person, which plane we're in, etc. But in the Aztec my typical mode was to let the time builder fly left seat and do all the flying, including takeoffs and landings. Expect a good lesson with systems, failures, engine management, etc. en route, plus weather as appropriate. In the 310, I do all takeoffs and landings as a rule, usually put the time builder right seat and make him/her hand fly the whole trip, or at least most of it. Figure the same lessons en route. Figure have a certain amount of time at least watching me fly when I'm tired of someone trying to kill me. A pretty excellent value for the price of free that I've normally charged (just asking they make a donation to Cloud Nine at some point). What's amazing is how few takers I get.

I figure the 310's gear is of greater concern, meanwhile the Aztec was pretty much indestructible. That's the main reason for the difference in SOP.

Edit: yes, the perspective student/time builder needs to show up at the airport, so figure travel is on his dime. Lodging (if required) is usually handled by a stay at the Hotel Tedifornia.

 

[Ted]

You need someone on long days, give a shout.

I might just do that.

 

[Dr. O]

Jounin, I am sure that to you your offer sounds reasonable.
As a twin owner I assure you that fuel is only part of my hourly operating expenses.
Every hour flown is two hours of TBO engine time, i.e. another 40 bucks that has to go into the pot..
Every trip is another series of door slamming, and yoke yanking, and gyro grinding, oil changing, brake pads breaking, bearings wearing, and hours towards the next 100 hour adventure in throwing AMU's around like they are play money.
Then there is the issue of insurance and liability.
Plus - unless you are paying me handsomely to sit and watch you man handle my airplane, ain't no way I'm sitting there, eyes glazed, wishing to hell I was somewhere else.
Other than that, great idea.

 

[wabower]

Denny, Allen's post is five years old. He's flying Lears and Citations now.

Jounin, I am sure that to you your offer sounds reasonable.
As a twin owner I assure you that fuel is only part of my hourly operating expenses.
Every hour flown is two hours of TBO engine time, i.e. another 40 bucks that has to go into the pot..
Every trip is another series of door slamming, and yoke yanking, and gyro grinding, oil changing, brake pads breaking, bearings wearing, and hours towards the next 100 hour adventure in throwing AMU's around like they are play money.
Then there is the issue of insurance and liability.
Plus - unless you are paying me handsomely to sit and watch you man handle my airplane, ain't no way I'm sitting there, eyes glazed, wishing to hell I was somewhere else.
Other than that, great idea.

 

[Ted]

Denny, Allen's post is five years old. He's flying Lears and Citations now.

Yep, his Lear 25 trip to Estonia left me very jealous. I haven't flown a plane that crappy over such a perilous route for at least 4 years.

 

[GCA319]

On another board, I once read about an interesting time-building operation in twins down in the Gulf of Mexico I think. They charged some low rate that came out to like $50-100 an hour or something cheap like that, and you sit in the left seat and fly an oil rig inspection route. The oil company has their pilot/CFI in the right seat, they meet an insurance requirement for two crew, and you get super cheap twin time. The downside, of course, is not that you're building 100+ hours, you're building the same hour 100 times. Clever.

Actually, the real downside to this method is that you are stealing a seat from somebody who should be getting paid to do this job, but is being undercut by someone paying for it.

 

[wabower]

Dude. You gotta get over that whiney-ass "somebody should be getting paid" wannabe low-time pilot BS. The operators are going to do what they perceive to be in their best interest and that they can sell to their POI. The morality play might work for sharing the swing at grade-school recess, but doesn't work at the airport.

Actually, the real downside to this method is that you are stealing a seat from somebody who should be getting paid to do this job, but is being undercut by someone paying for it.

 

[KSCessnaDriver]

Dude. You gotta get over that whiney-ass "somebody should be getting paid" wannabe low-time pilot BS. The operators are going to do what they perceive to be in their best interest and that they can sell to their POI. The morality play might work for sharing the swing at grade-school recess, but doesn't work at the airport.

Doesn't matter. Pay for job is pay for job, it will follow the pilot through his career. Pilots aren't stupid. Don't pay for seat that should have an employed pilot in it.