MSF as an aid in learning to fly

Chesterspal

Chesterspal

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Chesterspal
Hell to all. My first post.

A bit of background... took flying lessons for several months back in 1986, passed the written and soloed, got my student certificate then had to give up for various "life" reasons. Now, semi-retired and in excellent health, I want to complete what I started, buy a small single and enjoy life while I can. Just me and my little dog, Chester.

I recently watched a few Youtube videos using this Microsoft Flight Sim program where the fellow had a yoke attached to a table and plastic rudder pedals on the floor. Appeared to be very effective and quite real in its operation. I also watched a video where a guy, who only had practiced on one of these, was able to take off and land a single (commercial pilot sitting in the next seat) all on his own with no real flight time at all.

Now, I'm not going to attempt this, even though I have time in a plane... but my question is this... Can one use such a system to basically re-learn much of what was forgotten and even go well beyond such that the actual real flying time can be reduced from what many flight schools say is 60 to 70 hours to closer to the FAA minimum of 40 hours to earn a PPL?

At something like $220/hour for training in a single where I live, this would be a big advantage.

Finally, can/would the school frown on someone using one of these sims as a way to get a leg up on their training for such a purpose.

Please understand...I'm not trying to cut corners, here, as I'm sure some will suspect. I'm simply interested in getting to the PPL in the most effective and economical way possible.

Thanks for any help and advice you can provide. Much appreciated!
 
I think it can help. Just remember there is no 'reset' button when flying a real plane.
 
I bought the yoke and throttle body and control switches to do the same for my instrument.
For me it was not as useful as I thought it would be.
220/h seems steep to me all in, where you flying out of or what kind of plane??
For what you’ll spend in the setup that’s going to be 1-2 hours of flying. I’d rather fly. In hr beginning a lot is learning that feel which is hard to get on the sim. For me working on the Instrument it helped with timing and procedures.
 
IK04 said:
Motorcycle Safety Foundation? Wrong vehicle.
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Microsoft Flight Simulator, mixed up two letters apparently.

My home sim taught me nothing but bad habits. My first CFI didn't care that I had a flight sim, nor that I flew model airplanes. It didn't take long for me to figure out why.

Also, non-commercial flight sim physics are horrible. I didn't realize it until I started practicing the impossible turn scenario and made the runway every single time.

There are some pros, but not a lot translate into real flying. The only thing I use X-Plane for now is to play around with new ForeFlight features on the ground.
 
I have only used PC based flight simulators for practicing instrument procedures. ...And landing on the White House lawn, of course.
 
IK04 said:
I have only used PC based flight simulators for practicing instrument procedures. ...And landing on the White House lawn, of course.
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That would be a lot more fun if it was a better sim!!!
 
Timely thread....I’m currently in process of moving a bunch of stuff out of my home in SC in preparation for sale...including a lightly used Saitek yoke and rudder pedal systems and MFS-X software.
Will give away FREE (if someone pays shipping or picks up) to a current PPL student who will promise to pass it forward to another student at some future juncture. I’m pretty convinced that once up and flying with his/her new Certificate said student will be ready to pass it on.

Just PM me to initiate the handoff from me.
 
I’m not a CFI by any means only a pre checkride student. I’ve been an avid flight simmer since I was about 8 using an old Commodore 64.

I used it for learning VOR nav and I also flew my long xc 5 or 6 times in it before I actually flew it. Don’t use it to learn stick and rudder skills. It can help with other stuff though if you use it right.
 
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MFS can be useful to maintain or improve your "scan," but as far as learning to actually develop a feel for the controls or actually flying a plane I've found it pretty useless, ESPECIALLY landing. For learning VOR navigation, ILS/glideslope capture, etc., practicing partial panel scans, etc., it can be helpful. In terms of learning to fly an airplane, it's a detriment... it trains you to focus on a very small portion of your eyes' field of view. Once you get in an airplane, your instructor will CONSTANTLY be reminding you to get your eyes off your instruments, take in the big picture outside the airplane, and learn to gauge your attitude by the the horizon and how it appears in your view out the windscreen.
 
Hi.
Chesterspal said:
Can one use such a system to basically re-learn much of what was forgotten and even go well beyond such that the actual real flying time can be reduced
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Yes, go for it.
Get some rudder pedals, and a Jstick, Yoke is not necessary, and keep in mind some of the indicators, like the AI is not very accurate, in the sim you can pitch 20 deg during TO and still fly, in the real flight you will likely stall, note to self, do not allow yourself to pitch above 12 deg during TO and accept what ever speed even if not like in the real acft. That is one of the worst habits you can get from MSFSX, or most sims.
Do not allow yourself to get into bad habits, treat it as if it was real flight, no crashes, no coffee brakes, no fancy jet Top gun stuff. There are some bad habits you can get into, that can be hard to correct, we call it negative learning transfer, most of the navigation, procedures, keep your thinking going, etc. it will be helpful.
If your CFI sees something that is from the sim he / she will inform you and tell you how to correct it, just let them know that you are using a sim and which one.
Sims have been approved for logged hours, and shown to be very helpful especially in the IFR training, but it can help in most phases / types of flight.
 
TennVolsPilot39 said:
I’m not a CFI by any means only a pre checkride student. I’ve been an avid flight simmer since I was about 8 using an old Commodore 64.

I used it for learning VOR nav and I also flew my long xc 5 or 6 times in it before I actually flew it. Don’t use it to learn stick and rudder skills. It can help with other stuff though if you use it right.
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TennVols Pilot has it right. I am a CFI. The problems with the sims is even with several monitors and pedals and a yoke, It is very hard to see what you are doing and the feel of the controls is usually either non-existent or just wrong.

Learning the VOR is an excellent thing to use a simlator for assuming the plane you are training one has one, but you only need the sim and a cheap Joy Stick to do that. You can set up the autopilot to do most of the flying and you don’t need to see outside at all. If you can get the same or similar radios and/or GPS that the plane you are training in it can help a lot with learning how to operate the avionics, but it won’t help much with the actual flying. Linking the Flight Simulator to the Electronic Flight Bag (IPad/Tablet) can be very useful as well but again if you spend more than $150 on the whole setup you spent it on stuff you don’t need, assuming you already have an adequate computer. A good instructor that is familiar with these kinds of sims can guide you thorough what will help and what wont. It just depends on how familiar the instructor is with them. At a minimum It is a fun toy, at best It can help you with following checklists, and learning avionics and your EFB.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
There are parts of learning to fly that MSF can help with, but not much. Most of private pilot is more about the feel of the stick and rudder, how the airplane moves, how it reacts to you. A desktop flight game, even with a yoke, will just not replicate the things that you need to learn. Meanwhile, you can pick up some bad habits from the computer.

My advice is not to do it until after you solo. By that time, the primacy of learning will already have happened.
 
I use Xplane for instrument proficiency, and yeah, it helps a lot. . .yoke, and pedals, but cheap ones. For the muscle-memory for basic flight training, probably not so much. IMHO, desktop sims are better suited as instrument proficiency tools, vice learning how to fly. I dropped MSF quite a while back, in favor of Xplane, and it was the right thing to do - better mimics the aircraft and avionics I fly.

Disagree with the bad habits notion - haven't seen it it anyone else or myself: people are quick to say other people will get bad habits, but that doesn't apply to them, of course. If you have an IQ above room temp, using a sim won't hurt or hinder working on your PPL. Really, that's urban myth nonsense.
 
The value of home flight simulation is probably under-estimated by the community. It can help from something as simple to learning to read an altimeter, to helping memorize the steps involving in performing a stall and recovery (even if the stall itself is not accurate), to improving a pilot's intuition in assessing where the aircraft is on the pitch + power = performance equation. I've even had students use it (under close supervision) to practice engine-outs when they were having trouble judging the airplane's glide performance.
  • What happens when you add or reduce power out of a single-engine airplane? The nose rises or drops. Same thing on the sim.
  • What happens when you extend flaps on a Cessna? The nose rises. Same thing on the sim.
  • What happens when you turn without increasing back-elevator? The airplane loses altitude. The sim replicates that too, of course.
  • What happens when you roll the airplane with aileron and don't add rudder? Or use too much rudder? The ball will slide outside the cage. Same thing on the sim.
These kinds of little things are taken for granted by experienced pilots, thus experienced pilots say the sim is "useless" when this isn't true. When students struggle, it's the "basics" of flying—such as the ones bulleted above—that they struggle with.

Just learn to fly in the actual airplane, practice what you learn in the sim. In that order.

As an I aside I see zero practical difference in realism between MSFS and X-Plane. The only caveat is you have to realize there is a "realism" setting on MSFS which unfortunately defaults to "easy" (meaning not realistic) but this setting can be fixed in two seconds. Set correctly there is no difference.
 
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The issue I have with the previous two posts is that student pilots need to learn to keep their eyes primarily OUTSIDE the plane and learn to judge the coordination of their turns using their buttometer. Using MSFS early and/or frequently during flight training, by definition, trains the user to focus on instrument readouts and an approximately 20 degree field of view instead of focusing outside the airplane, using peripheral vision, and keeping your head on a swivel. These are bad habits. Fess up...has anyone ever actually done clearing turns prior to maneuvers in a sim?
As I've already stated, sims certainly do have a place, but their strength lies in learning navigation and instrument practice. To the immediately previous poster's credit, he did state that you should learn in the airplane first, then practice in the sim afterwards. That is good advice, but it kind of negates his four bullet points. If you learn those things in the airplane first, the sim's response models are inaccurate, you're judging a lot of them by relying on instruments to an undesireable amount, and using a tiny fraction of a realistic sight area, is the sim really helping you learn those control and performance bullet points for your airplane, or for the sim?
I say these things out of personal experience as a low time ppsel with an excellent flight instructor and as a user of MSFS. To this day, I still have some trouble occasionally with the proper interaction between aileron and rudder on crosswind landings to stay perfectly lined up on touchdown (and, on my home field, virtually every landing is a crosswind landing).
Just for kicks, fueled by this discussion, yesterday I used MSFS to save a flight that had me on final, then did twenty landings that consistently improved in less time than I spend doing two in the plane...and a lot less money. If that substantially improves my technique in the real airplane, I'll be surprised but delighted, and will report back here and humbly eat my hat.
 
Learn to fly a real airplane. Twice a week lessons is nearly ideal for neural reinforcement. Sims are great for learning systems and honing procedures but not that useful for developing flight control feel. You will not learn how to make crosswind landings in a sim.
 
If you think flight sims can’t help you, you aren’t doing it right. Flight sims are primarily procedures trainers. Are they going to help you learn steep turns? No. VOR Navigation? Hell yes. Using your GPS? Yes.

I have the A2A Cherokee and RXP GTN650, which is exactly the same as my real world setup. I’m an instrument student now and it is a fabulous help for that. But for PPL training you can use it to ingrain things like pre-takeoff checklist use, what to do on your takeoff roll (“power in, right rudder, oil pressure good, airspeed alive...”), turning off the fuel pump 1,000 feet agl. And pre-landing checklists, focusing on your airspeeds for approach, the pattern, etc. And cross-country navigation. Grab your sectional and fly your cross countries. Cross checking instruments during all phases of flight. Even things like procedures for slow flight: power to 1,500, maintain altitude, first notch, second notch, power in to 1,800, etc. You can go over the procedures once you learn them.

It’s of tremendous use of you know how to use it.
 
I used flight sim when I was working on my private and I think I had 45 hours in my book when my checkride was done. A yoke and throttles are nice but not required IMO. A set of rudder pedals and a joystick with a throttle control is all you really need. No matter what types of controls you use, you're not going to learn any of the 'feel' of how to fly. Its not going to teach you any stick and rudder skills in other words.

But if you use it as a procedures trainer, it can really make your time in the plane more productive. It can also work well for practicing flight planning and learning the antique modes of navigation like VOR and NDB.
 
Funny Story,
I had a student a few years ago that was really into Flight simulator. He was awesome at the radio navigation.

For our Night cross country he planned a flight down an airway to an intersecting airway off another VOR. Since we were just flying straight level on the airway I put him under the hood for about 15 minutes before we got to the interesection. About 5 minutes from the intersection I took him off the hood. As we passed the interesection I watched the VOR needle swing from right to left and he did not make a course change, about 5 minutes later he noticed the needle was deflected the wrong way and turned to the on course heading he had planned. A few minutes later he clicked the mic to turn on the runway lights and they lit up right ahead of him. He proceeded to descend and land.

He called flight service and closed his flight plan, We debriefed the flight and took a break, as he was about to file his flight plan for the return flight I invited him outside and showed him the sign on the FBO building that said “Wecome to Jerome” KJER, Our destination was KGNG.

Advised that he should have researched the airport a bit better, He would have known the FBO’s are on opposite sides of the runway. He should have also backed up his visual ques with his instruments. If he had corrected and put himself back on the airway he would not have had an issue.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
Juliet Hotel said:
I used flight sim when I was working on my private and I think I had 45 hours in my book when my checkride was done. A yoke and throttles are nice but not required IMO. A set of rudder pedals and a joystick with a throttle control is all you really need. No matter what types of controls you use, you're not going to learn any of the 'feel' of how to fly. Its not going to teach you any stick and rudder skills in other words.

But if you use it as a procedures trainer, it can really make your time in the plane more productive. It can also work well for practicing flight planning and learning the antique modes of navigation like VOR and NDB.
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I would agree with this for the most part. JH seems to be describing a flight sim used more as a hands-on aid to "airmchair" flying, where instead of just sitting in a chair and going through procedures, checklists, settings, and tasks entirely in your head, the sim adds at least an element of actual "doing" rather than all internal "visualizing." The only caveat, as I've already said a bunch of times, is that the sim trains you to rely on instruments, small sight pictures, and unrealistic performances for given control inputs, rather than big pictures and feel.
 
bflynn said:
A desktop flight game, even with a yoke, will just not replicate the things that you need to learn. Meanwhile, you can pick up some bad habits from the computer......My advice is not to do it until after you solo. By that time, the primacy of learning will already have happened.
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That's what I saw when I was an instructor. The student can pick up some bad habits that are hard to correct. Primacy is a powerful force.
 
Welcome back!!

I remember in the good ol'days when I had to spend a few hours reteaching future pilots who had "a whole buncha Xplane time logged." First lernt, is the hardest unlernt. FAA even says that. My favorite student was the one who had zero time behind any yoke.

But since OP has some time logged in real live aeroplanes, I bet you will be amazed how fast the rust knocks off! Go find out how much you remember in a real live aeroplane. My opinion is that sims have there place, waaaay down the road in advanced IR training. My opinion is also that if one is going to mess around with technology (trying to get perhiphrials working on a PC, oh the hilarity!) one might as well spend that money on 2 used gopros and strap them on the plane. One looking out of the airplane from behind the pilots (with audio recorded) and one looking from the wing tip or the like from your shoulders forward. Rewind the tapes and see what the flight was about. Better to review what was learned, or not learned, rather than to build bad habits and reinforcing them in a sim. YMMV, and this is only my opinion. I do the same with my cameras and I'm amazed at what I notice me doing - good and not as good as I would like.
 
Eric, not sure a FAA endorsement is a "plus"; I just don't think the net result of using a sim, even for a primary student, is negative. But I could be wrong. It has happened before. I do think it's a good IR tool, no doubt.

Not that it proves anything, either way, but I had a CAP cadet on an orientation ride some years back (hold all flames, I left CAP long ago!) and he was young and a real shorty . . .I had him flying in the right seat, and he had the numbers nailed, heading, altitude, locked in on turns, etc. It gradually dawned on me he couldn't possibly see over the glare shield, and was flying totally by reference to the instruments. Which does kinda reinforce both sides of the above arguments - MFS hadn't trained him to look outside, but it sure did teach to fly with precision. . .it was against the rules, but I let him have the landing; he greased it, of course. I decided it would be wrong to slap him. . .
 
Why do you say it makes you reply on reading the instruments? The videos I've seen show a very detailed panorama of the cockpit window and all that is outside. Moving the controls affects the angle of horizon, banking, height, etc. as in a real plane.
 
bflynn said:
A desktop flight game, even with a yoke, will just not replicate the things that you need to learn. Meanwhile, you can pick up some bad habits from the computer.
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I don't see this as a flaw of flight sim, I see it as a flaw of the student. I used flight sim extensively from before my very first lesson and I didn't have any bad habits that needed to be broken. But I started with reading books. Books that described things like the control surfaces and how they worked. Then I went into flight sim and flew the plane with my view outside the plane and I could see the control surfaces move and I could see the effect that movement had on the plane. And that helped make the material I reading in the book gel together for me. This was before I ever set foot on the airport the first time.

When I showed up at the first lesson and the instructor showed me the instruments in the panel, I was already familiar with them. Yep that's an airspeed indicator, it functions via ram air through that tube (whose name I wasn't yet sure how to pronounce) under the wing and it shows airspeed which is not ground speed because wind exists. I had already read that in the book and watched it work in flight sim so it was much easier to absorb and digest during that first lesson. Yep that's an altimeter, read it sort of like a clock, little hand is thousands, big hand is hundreds, little knob adjusts for barometric pressure changes. Had already read it the book, had already played with it and seen it work in flight sim. So I didn't have to stare at it and focus on it and think about what it was showing me during those first lessons. I could glance at it and go yep 1500' got it and I could go back to focusing on the nose and its relationship to the horizon. My use of the software only helped me and made me more prepared for my lessons.

I will agree that used with the wrong perspective or approach, someone could pick up some bad habits or learn some things wrong with flight sim. But that is not unique to flight sim. That could be said of almost any kind of self directed study. They could read a book and interpret things incorrectly. They could read and absorb any one a billion different facts or concepts on the internet that are just plain wrong. That is a potential pitfall of all self directed study.

Approached and used correctly and with a realistic perspective for what it can and cannot do, I see no harm in using it during all phases of training. The key is understanding what it will and will not be able to show you.
 
"Bad habits" is a scapegoat that I hear often used by pilots who aren't instructors. All but the best students exhibit bad habits that come from nowhere apparent (from their personality I guess) even if they walk into fight training a blank slate. Not trimming, tight grips, looking at the wrong thing, the list is endless. If this wasn't the case the average student could complete training in 40 hours instead of the more typical 70.
 
For VFR training, the focus should be on visual flight, not instruments. Students who play with flight sims before learning to fly invariably focus more on the panel than what’s outside the window.

Primacy of learning means these students will revert to playing the video game when something goes wrong rather than flying the airplane.
 
bflynn said:
For VFR training, the focus should be on visual flight, not instruments. Students who play with flight sims before learning to fly invariably focus more on the panel than what’s outside the window.

Primacy of learning means these students will revert to playing the video game when something goes wrong rather than flying the airplane.
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There's having a debate and then there's posting the same opinion multiple times hoping that you'll drown out other opinions. Do you have anything new to add?

Students who don't play with flight sims might focus on the instruments too much too. That's not unique to flight sims and as I recall you aren't an instructor and have no experience on which to base your opinion.

"Don't use ______ because you might do it improperly" can apply to many things. The solution is to use it properly instead of not at all.
 
bflynn said:
For VFR training, the focus should be on visual flight, not instruments. Students who play with flight sims before learning to fly invariably focus more on the panel than what’s outside the window.

Primacy of learning means these students will revert to playing the video game when something goes wrong rather than flying the airplane.
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I didn't have any trouble with focusing on the instruments too much nor with not looking out the window enough during my training. Guess your definition of invariably is different than mine.
 
Consumer desktop sims are worse than worthless for learning basic airmanship, handling and maneuvers. Control responses and sensory cues are too unrealistic. I've yet to see a desktop sim that accurately reproduces pitch response and trim feel. On the other hand, consumer sims do have some value for IMC training, and can be very helpful for procedures and navigation practice.

A couple of days ago I planned a rather complex VFR route weaving around, over and under various sectors of Class B and Class D airspace in the Phoenix area. The night before the flight I "flew" it in X-Plane 11, using the same Foreflight display I use in the airplane. The real flight was a snap, since I had "been there" already.

Beyond that, I have fun "flying" X-Plane to places I've not been to before and likely never will, or to go back to places where I've flown in the past. The VFR scenery is outstanding, very realistic.
 
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Juliet Hotel said:
I didn't have any trouble with focusing on the instruments too much nor with not looking out the window enough during my training. Guess your definition of invariably is different than mine.
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I would consider a VR setup a high priority. The 3D depth perception surround-view is quite real. X-plane supports VR. Another one I recently discovered is flyinside-fsx, which seems more fluid than X-plane under VR. Bad habits can be learned from anywhere. Tailwheel pilots would say tricycle pilots have bad habits. Glider pilot would say power plane pilots have bad habits. The list is endless. Don't worry about it, and do what you can at the moment.
 
Juliet Hotel said:
I didn't have any trouble with focusing on the instruments too much nor with not looking out the window enough during my training. Guess your definition of invariably is different than mine.
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My definition comes from a group instructors who have taught hundreds of students. They agree that they can always tell the students who have played the video game first because they are overly focused inside the cockpit. Great for IFR...not so good for see and avoid.
 
bflynn said:
My definition comes from a group instructors who have taught hundreds of students. They agree that they can always tell the students who have played the video game first because they are overly focused inside the cockpit. Great for IFR...not so good for see and avoid.
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So they go from "this student looks at the instruments too much" to "this student must have played flight simulator at home" to "students who play flight simulator at home look at the instruments too much". That's a nice example of the logical fallacy called begging the question. In other words, circular reasoning.
 
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dmspilot said:
So they go from "this student looks at the instruments too much" to "this student must have played flight simulator at home" to "students who play flight simulator at home look at the instruments too much". That's a nice example of the logical fallacy called begging the question. In other words, circular reasoning.
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I was an instructor too, and found "bad habits" instilled by flight simulators.

There are Seven Learning Factors that instructors, in Canada at least, are taught while earning the rating. Primacy is one of the most powerful, and it says that things first learned are the most difficult to correct if they're wrong. Hence the overfocus on the panel by simmers. They didn't get the physical feel and sounds of the airplane--wind noise and all--so they had to rely on the gauges for everything, including airspeed and slip/skid. They carry that into the cockpit, and it hampers them.

Relationship is another factor. Learn the simple stuff first, moving to more complex as the basic stuff is mastered. A simmer just can't wait to try complex maneuvers on the sim, and the sim lets him get away with it. Sims don't crash easily enough. Crosswind landings in the sims I flew were a joke, leading the "pilot" to think the flight's over as soon as the wheels are on the ground. Big mistake, and it breaks a lot of real airplanes.

Seven Learning Factors: https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/publications/tp4818-parti-factors-5436.htm
 
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