Mountain Flying

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Unregistered

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oday i was mountain flying, it was a beautfull day, until we crossed the rockey mountain divide, before i knew it we were yellow lining in a da40 . we encountered severe turbulence, i immediately pitched up and decreased throttle, i notice we were in the yellow arc and tried to slow us a quickly as possible, without putting a load on the plane. My dog was in the back, as well as a friend. i slowed as quickly as possible while battling the roll of the aircraft ( trying to roll hard to the left) we encountered a 2000ft/min down draft while we slowed but got out of it. I was scared, we slowed and battled the turbulence the rest of the way home. we made it home safe, however, i never encountered anything like the conditions i experienced today. glad we made it!
 
glad you worked through this, good job.
 
Unregistered, nice to meet you. I guess not everyone can handle the criticism with their actions. I do agree it gets rough and can detract from trying to learn a lesson.

Either way, your experience is one of the reasons I want to get some mountain flying training before heading north. Glad you are safe.
 
1. Go take a mountain flying class
2. Go fly with a CFI that specializes in mountain flying and not a 10 hr wonder who took the AOPA online course
3. READ the winds aloft report
4. If you don't have the power, avoid the hills in the winter. That's when the winds are the worst
5. Learn how geography and ridges affect winds
 
this picture was taken by a friend in his glider in the wave near Boulder a few weeks ago. FL310.

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murphey said:
1. Go take a mountain flying class
2. Go fly with a CFI that specializes in mountain flying and not a 10 hr wonder who took the AOPA online course
3. READ the winds aloft report
4. If you don't have the power, avoid the hills in the winter. That's when the winds are the worst
5. Learn how geography and ridges affect winds
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I know all of that, taken the courses, have plenty of time in the mountains, the winds aloft were not what they were forested, in fact, they were off by ~50 knots, there was no visible Mountain wave and the rotors hadn't quiet formed.
 
Unregistered said:
i slowed as quickly as possible while battling the roll of the aircraft ( trying to roll hard to the left) we encountered a 2000ft/min down draft while we slowed but got out of it. I was scared, we slowed and battled the turbulence the rest of the way home. we made it home safe, however, i never encountered anything like the conditions i experienced today. glad we made it!
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I am assuming you liked the 2000ft/min downdraft, as you slowed the plane down to remain in the downdraft longer.

I don't see what the scare was if you were having fun and extending the time you were in the downdraft.

Life's fun, enjoy it.
 
The purpose of slowing the plane down wasn't to remain in the down draft longer, it was to slow the plane to maneuvering speed to prevent over stressing the aircraft in the SEVERE TURBULENCE. I had the altitude to spare, however, what would have absolutely killed us is if the plane had broken apart.
 
Unregistered said:
The purpose of slowing the plane down wasn't to remain in the down draft longer, it was to slow the plane to maneuvering speed to prevent over stressing the aircraft in the SEVERE TURBULENCE. I had the altitude to spare, however, what would have absolutely killed us is if the plane had broken apart.
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True that ... you might want to connect with a CFI that does acrobatics just in case on top of the mountain course you already completed. If you live near the mountains, eventually you'll be placed into a 90* uncommanded bank that is increasing ... your choice then is to see if you can arrest it vs. taking it on around in the roll. I've had two and both were at night just to make things more interesting.
 
WOW - that was a close call. Glad you made it. Thanks for the post.
Yep – never get complacent while flying.
 
dans2992 said:
FL310 in a glider!? Must be an interesting setup. Does he get an RVSM exception from ATC?
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See all those lenticular clouds?

That's his setup. He's surfing mountain waves.

He'll need pressurized oxygen and a very warm jacket at that altitude. And I'm sure special permission -- kinda hard to follow an IFR flight plan in a glider.
 
There is a wave window in boulder, waivered airspace that can be opened for VFR glider altitude flights. Not sure what the top of it is. No IFR traffic allowed in the wave window when it is active. RVSM rules apply outside the wave window so he would have to have been on an IFR flight plan and below FL280 to be outside the wave window and above FL180
 
danhagan said:
True that ... you might want to connect with a CFI that does acrobatics just in case on top of the mountain course you already completed. If you live near the mountains, eventually you'll be placed into a 90* uncommanded bank that is increasing ... your choice then is to see if you can arrest it vs. taking it on around in the roll. I've had two and both were at night just to make things more interesting.
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Holy crap. I guess I never thought of something like that happening except when people are doing aerobatics.

Are most GA planes capable of doing rolls without going past a certain number of G's and stressing/breaking up?
 
danhagan said:
True that ... you might want to connect with a CFI that does acrobatics just in case on top of the mountain course you already completed. If you live near the mountains, eventually you'll be placed into a 90* uncommanded bank that is increasing ... your choice then is to see if you can arrest it vs. taking it on around in the roll. I've had two and both were at night just to make things more interesting.
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And/Or a glider lesson!
 
LoneAspen said:
Holy crap. I guess I never thought of something like that happening except when people are doing aerobatics.

Are most GA planes capable of doing rolls without going past a certain number of G's and stressing/breaking up?
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yes! takes training and u gotta keep the plane at low g loads, the less dihedral the easier
 
Unregistered said:
oday i was mountain flying, it was a beautfull day, until we crossed the rockey mountain divide, before i knew it we were yellow lining in a da40 . we encountered severe turbulence, i immediately pitched up and decreased throttle, i notice we were in the yellow arc and tried to slow us a quickly as possible, without putting a load on the plane. My dog was in the back, as well as a friend. i slowed as quickly as possible while battling the roll of the aircraft ( trying to roll hard to the left) we encountered a 2000ft/min down draft while we slowed but got out of it. I was scared, we slowed and battled the turbulence the rest of the way home. we made it home safe, however, i never encountered anything like the conditions i experienced today. glad we made it!
Click to expand...

Glad you mad it too. A few questions: What was the lesson learned? What's the "rockey mountain divide"? What's the definition of severe turbulence? What are you doing flying in the mountains when the lennies are several thousand feet thick and the rotors stretch out over the plains?
 
Clark1961 said:
Glad you mad it too. A few questions: What was the lesson learned? What's the "rockey mountain divide"? What's the definition of severe turbulence? What are you doing flying in the mountains when the lennies are several thousand feet thick and the rotors stretch out over the plains?
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Probably the biggest lesson I learned was that the sky may not alway give you the indications of the nasty weather that actually exists, especially over the mountains, as well as the forecasted winds aloft can't always be trusted. I refer to the continental divide as the Rocky Mountain divide. My definition of severe turbulence is turbulence which makes control of the aircraft extremely difficult, and smash my head on the ceiling. If you read he follow up comments you would have noticed that the clouds were almost non existent , there were no lennies or rotor clouds. Those photos were not mine and were taken on a different day.
 
Unregistered said:
Probably the biggest lesson I learned was that the sky may not alway give you the indications of the nasty weather that actually exists, especially over the mountains, as well as the forecasted winds aloft can't always be trusted. I refer to the continental divide as the Rocky Mountain divide. My definition of severe turbulence is turbulence which makes control of the aircraft extremely difficult, and smash my head on the ceiling. If you read he follow up comments you would have noticed that the clouds were almost non existent , there were no lennies or rotor clouds. Those photos were not mine and were taken on a different day.
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I drove I-70 yesterday and there were plenty of lennies therefore I think you aren't being truthful. And by the way, I chose to drive rather than fly because many aspects of the forecasts for Monday and Tuesday were not favorable to flight in light aircraft over those mountains. Dude, you had a front setting right over the Front Range! This time of year the weather frequently is bad enough that light aircraft flights over the mountains are really not a good idea. I'm not saying that such flights can't be done but expect a rough ride and plan accordingly. Frequently climbing is a good 'out' and it helps to have that option open. In other words have oxygen available and enough aircraft performance to get above 16,000 feet. You want to be at least 1/2 the valley depth above the tallest peaks in your vicinity. You'll still experience wave but in general the turbulence isn't a problem. Be willing to hold pitch and give up or accept altitude in the wave since it is far more powerful than your aircraft.

Your definition of severe turbulence is not in agreement with the widely accepted and published definition. Hitting your head just means that you probably didn't have your lap belt adjusted properly.
 
Clark1961 said:
I drove I-70 yesterday and there were plenty of lennies therefore I think you aren't being truthful. And by the way, I chose to drive rather than fly because many aspects of the forecasts for Monday and Tuesday were not favorable to flight in light aircraft over those mountains. Dude, you had a front setting right over the Front Range! This time of year the weather frequently is bad enough that light aircraft flights over the mountains are really not a good idea. I'm not saying that such flights can't be done but expect a rough ride and plan accordingly. Frequently climbing is a good 'out' and it helps to have that option open. In other words have oxygen available and enough aircraft performance to get above 16,000 feet. You want to be at least 1/2 the valley depth above the tallest peaks in your vicinity. You'll still experience wave but in general the turbulence isn't a problem. Be willing to hold pitch and give up or accept altitude in the wave since it is far more powerful than your aircraft.

Your definition of severe turbulence is not in agreement with the widely accepted and published definition. Hitting your head just means that you probably didn't have your lap belt adjusted properly.
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My flight was on Sunday FYI, and the definition we use in the navy is "Severe turbulence: Turbulence that causes large, abrupt changes in altitude and/or attitude. It usually causes large variations in indicated airspeed. Aircraft may be momentarily out of control."
Thanks for your feedback!
 
Clark1961 said:
Glad you mad it too. A few questions: What was the lesson learned? What's the "rockey mountain divide"? What's the definition of severe turbulence? What are you doing flying in the mountains when the lennies are several thousand feet thick and the rotors stretch out over the plains?
Click to expand...

OP already pointed out it was Rollins Pass, meaning coming back from the
Granby area to the Front Range. Unless you own the DA40, the only rentals I know of are Aspen Flying Club & JEFA's. But I'm often wrong about stuff. Frequently, in fact.

But the important question -- how did the dog do? Is it willing to go flying with you again?
 
murphey said:
OP already pointed out it was Rollins Pass, meaning coming back from the
Granby area to the Front Range. Unless you own the DA40, the only rentals I know of are Aspen Flying Club & JEFA's. But I'm often wrong about stuff. Frequently, in fact.

But the important question -- how did the dog do? Is it willing to go flying with you again?
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We both know the OP is full of it on claiming the forecast was benign. No way I was going flying in the mountains this weekend. And I certainly don't own a DA-40...
 
Clark1961 said:
We both know the OP is full of it on claiming the forecast was benign. No way I was going flying in the mountains this weekend. And I certainly don't own a DA-40...
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Actually the weather on sunday was fantastic, at least until about 1pm. How do I know this? Because I flew a 737 to Atlanta that day, and the forcast was promising. OP don't let people like clark try to bring you down. If I wasn't working Id probably be exploring the mountains too.
 
murphey said:
OP already pointed out it was Rollins Pass, meaning coming back from the
Granby area to the Front Range. Unless you own the DA40, the only rentals I know of are Aspen Flying Club & JEFA's. But I'm often wrong about stuff. Frequently, in fact.

But the important question -- how did the dog do? Is it willing to go flying with you again?
Click to expand...

He was fine, a little nervious but I'm sure he would love to get back up there
:)
 
Clark1961 said:
We both know the OP is full of it on claiming the forecast was benign. No way I was going flying in the mountains this weekend. And I certainly don't own a DA-40...
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Sorry, I was referring the the OP and the DA-40. Few of the experienced mountain CFIs recommend Rollins or any of the higher passes between Nov & April with a lower powered airplane (e.g. 180 HP or less). Which is why I haven't been able to finish the flying part of the moutain class from last fall. Most of the mountain CFIs were busy flying flood duty.
 
murphey said:
Sorry, I was referring the the OP and the DA-40. Few of the experienced mountain CFIs recommend Rollins or any of the higher passes between Nov & April with a lower powered airplane (e.g. 180 HP or less). Which is why I haven't been able to finish the flying part of the moutain class from last fall. Most of the mountain CFIs were busy flying flood duty.
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Speaking of mountain CFIs in Colorado, does anybody have any experience with Alpine Flight Training, or what appears to be their sister website Mountain CFI, near Vail (KEGE)?
 
Clark1961 said:
I drove I-70 yesterday and there were plenty of lennies therefore I think you aren't being truthful.
Click to expand...

Clark1961 said:
We both know the OP is full of it on claiming the forecast was benign.
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Uhh, Clark... It'd be a lot more productive if you didn't come right out and call the OP a liar. Maybe his viewing of the forecast WAS benign because he wasn't experienced enough in that area to look for the right things. And you called him a liar twice before you even got the time frame right.

PoA is supposed to be the front porch of aviation. Let's not be an example of why aviation is shrinking.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Uhh, Clark... It'd be a lot more productive if you didn't come right out and call the OP a liar. Maybe his viewing of the forecast WAS benign because he wasn't experienced enough in that area to look for the right things. And you called him a liar twice before you even got the time frame right.

PoA is supposed to be the front porch of aviation. Let's not be an example of why aviation is shrinking.
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Thanks I'm not a liar, but I could always you advice, aviation is a community, a family, and everyone can always learn something.... United cap what kind of briefing do you guys get in the airlines?
 
Our briefings take about 45min and include EVERYTHING! Listen I didn't get to where I am today by not strecthing my legs and exploring, when I departed KDEN on Sunday, winds from 12000 to 16000 were approximately 30 knots from 300, (we save everything in case **** goes wrong) , Anyway Rollings pass was suppose to be at 25 from 290, I would have gone mountain flying too. Don't let people who are inexperienced try to bring you down because they are afraid to experience weather. My mountain flying limits in a small plane are 35-40 knots depending on direction, I bet you had a fantastic updraft on the way over :) Always remember where there is sink there is lift, usually not to far away. " BLUE SKIES ON SUNDAY, HARDLY A CLOUD OUT THERE, SHOULD BE A NICE RiIDE" thats what my dispatcher told me, we got some light chop but then again we were in a 737-400. You lived right? It sounded like you knew what the risks were, excess airspeed and countered, you will be fine, always have decending terrain, which is easy to do departing the divide.
 
If my memory serves me right from last June when I took my Mtn flying course, stay on the ground if winds 25 knots or higher, never fly after 12 and many do not fly IFR or at night in the mountains.

Unitedcap, not intending on questioning your experience at all but I'm staying on ground when winds at 12k exceed 25. Not worth the ride but everyone has different comfort levels . After living here in mountains for a year I enjoy checking out the clouds (lennies) and confirming the winds loft after observing them. Until the course I truly didn't appreciate what they represent. In the flat lands of Oklahoma it was always crazy windy but pretty benign.
 
Jthamilton said:
If my memory serves me right from last June when I took my Mtn flying course, stay on the ground if winds 25 knots or higher, never fly after 12 and many do not fly IFR or at night in the mountains.

Unitedcap, not intending on questioning your experience at all but I'm staying on ground when winds at 12k exceed 25. Not worth the ride but everyone has different comfort levels . After living here in mountains for a year I enjoy checking out the clouds (lennies) and confirming the winds loft after observing them. Until the course I truly didn't appreciate what they represent. In the flat lands of Oklahoma it was always crazy windy but pretty benign.
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Not flying after 12 in the summer time is a good rule of thumb, due to density altitude, in winter, or early spring you can get away with it. As a beginner mountain flyer I suggest not flying with winds over 25knots, however, it is
Extremely hard to forcast winds in the mountains. Thus, you will get put in situations with winds above forcast, thus it is good to have expierence, lennies could be a great source of lift ( with o2 ) however, I will attest that their were very few lennies over the boukder area on Sunday. You need to learn how to use lift to your advantage and on the windward side of lennies is an extreme amount if lift ( glider expierence) same with on the rising side of rotors. True mountain fly you need to adapt to conditions and use those conditions to your advantage. If you ask any meteorologist, if you can develop a models, to correctly forcast winds in the mountains,you will win a Nobel prize, and become extremely wealthy.

The rule with ifr in the mountains is DO NOT FLY IFR with single engine or at night single engine or light twin.
 
Hawaii is always windy too usually around 30knkts, BUT they don't have the gust factor or wind shear, and that's what gets people in trouble
 
But if you have a chance , take a full moon night flight over the mountains in late April, ONLY IF WEATHER PERMITS, it's amazing , almost day vfr with the reflection of moon on snow, it's an expierence that it recommend . SPECTACULAR.
 
Unitedcap said:
The rule with ifr in the mountains is DO NOT FLY IFR with single engine or at night single engine or light twin.
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Of course you mean IMC, not IFR. Nothing wrong with filing and accepting a clearance for a flight over the mountains as long as you have the performance to maintain MEA. It's also handy to get a clearance when the destination is Denver and it's below VFR minimums but the mountains are clear. Approach fits you in much better with center putting you where Approach wants you rather than just popping up IFR on the west side of town.

That said, lots of folks have left their aircraft and their lives in the mountains when they've gone tried single and twin IMC. It happens almost every year.
 
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