Mountain Flying Training near Denver

1200AGL

1200AGL

Pre-takeoff checklist
Joined
Jul 20, 2010
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149
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Santa Barbara, CA
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Display name:
Paul
I'll be visiting a friend in Denver during the last weekend of September. As a flatlander who's never set foot in Colorado before, I'm thinking about extending the trip to get some mountain flying training (Leadville is on my bucket list). According to Google, KAPA and Jeffco are both ~30 minutes from my buddy's place. I'd need to rent an airplane there.

I see that the Colorado Pilot's Association has a list of approved instructors, but I'd really appreciate any recommendations for an instructor/outfit.
 
John Bowman at Western Air, BJC Howard McClure is also there but suggest John is the first choice. Book well in advance since John tends to be busy.
 
Another vote for Western Air- I finished my PPL there in May with my instructor Tony Moreno (great CFII). I have been very satisfied with the service and instruction I have gotten. Western Air's competitive advantage in my opinion/experience are the CFI's- I got the distinct impression that they are there because they love to teach and I haven't met one yet who seems to be just building time. They also have a nice R182 on the line that would be great in the mountains, along with a nice 180HP conversion 172N. I usually fly the 180HP 172, but I will be transitioning to the R182 soon.
 
another vote for John ...

double your pleasure and go with the Citabria ... :D
 
Western Air's mountain course is good; I flew with Howard. I'd recommend going with the least powerful/capable airplane they have...you'll get more out of the course that way and really learn to milk the airplane for everything it's got.
 
Wow, I never expected a unanimous response. Thanks, all!
I'll give Western Air a call.
 
And yet another recomendation for John Bowman at Western Air. He is a very experienced Mtn pilot. Tell him Tony sent you...

and BTW John owns a 150hp/150 that is on lease back at Western. If you are light enough it is a real hoot to fly in the mountains. It is what I did my Mtn Flying Course in.
 
I called Western Air this afternoon. I'm scheduled to fly with Howard in one of their C172N's. I'm really looking forward to this course. Thanks.
 
1200AGL said:
I called Western Air this afternoon. I'm scheduled to fly with Howard in one of their C172N's. I'm really looking forward to this course. Thanks.
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Better hope it's ZC rather than 47E. I took my pp checkride in E and it's a gutless 'hawk. ZC has a climb prop (or at least more of a climb prop than E) and will perform at least a little bit. I don't know about D. It was offline with a prop strike when I was there.

Follow the preflight checklist with Howard, he night not so somebody on board should. If you ask how I know this I'll reply by PM. Don't get me wrong, Howard knows more about flying than I ever will, but I've seen something...
 
Clark1961 said:
Better hope it's ZC rather than 47E. I took my pp checkride in E and it's a gutless 'hawk. ZC has a climb prop (or at least more of a climb prop than E) and will perform at least a little bit.
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I wrote down N5091E.

Follow the preflight checklist with Howard, he night not so somebody on board should. If you ask how I know this I'll reply by PM. Don't get me wrong, Howard knows more about flying than I ever will, but I've seen something...
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Thanks for the heads-up. Anything I need to be concerned about? In any event, I'll make certain that we do a thorough preflight.
 
1200AGL said:
I wrote down N5091E.



Thanks for the heads-up. Anything I need to be concerned about? In any event, I'll make certain that we do a thorough preflight.
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91E is a 180 hp bird so not a factory N. It'll do fine in the hills.

Nothing special with Howard, just do the complete pre-flight checklist. He'll trust you to look at everything so don't let him down. Be sure you look at the fuel selector. ;)
 
I've flown with three of the folks on that list and know five of them.

Out of that list, Jer/ Eberhard is tough but fair, and quite fun to fly with. He's too far north for me to get up with him as often as I'd like. He's also quite addicted to backcountry flying and loves a good XC adventure.

http://www.jerslash.net/ - photo section is fun. He'll be at OSH with Cessnas 2 Oshkosh if you are going to be there and want to meet/talk to him about plans.

Some of the folks on that list are very busy with various aviation endeavors. Larry Camden is booked solid with accelerated Instrument and multi-engine transition students, for example. I see him launching in a Seneca all the time from a couple hangars over from ours.

Rob Duncan has been busy with touring around with a TBM Avenger and running Airbase One. I haven't flown with him (yet).

Bruce Hulley hasn't been able to hold a medical for years, but is a capable instructor for someone who's 100% up for all duties as PIC. He had some more medical challenges this year and I don't know if he's back to flying yet. I've flown with him and he's got a lot of knowledge in his head. Lots of years of mountain flying. Very "stream of consciousness" style.

Others on the list I've met and worked with in CAP but haven't had a chance to fly with, such as Bill Standerfer. Haven't seen him in quite a while. Not sure what he's up to.

Have heard good things about the folks up at KBJC who were already mentioned also, and I think there's a number of younger "next generation" younger CFIs who are good but not on that list who CPA would probably recommend if you dropped them a line. (Website is a bit dated on that page, I think.)

September/October we start to get our couple of weeks of almost continuous high winds (usually end of September early October) and that can curtail mountain flights for a couple of weeks. It also starts to cool down a bit so that's helpful for Density Altitude considerations.

Not sure who's handling it, but someone's tending the CPA Facebook "user"/page. You can reach the organization there too.
 
Clark1961 said:
91E is a 180 hp bird so not a factory N. It'll do fine in the hills.

Nothing special with Howard, just do the complete pre-flight checklist. He'll trust you to look at everything so don't let him down. Be sure you look at the fuel selector. ;)
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OK. I will not allow myself to be rushed through my usual, annoyingly deliberate, rental airplane preflight ritual. :)

September/October we start to get our couple of weeks of almost continuous high winds (usually end of September early October) and that can curtail mountain flights for a couple of weeks. It also starts to cool down a bit so that's helpful for Density Altitude considerations.
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The continuous high winds need to start in October this year ;)
I don't have control over the trip date, but I built in 1.5 days of slack into my travel plans for weather.

I'd be lying if I said I wasn't a bit concerned about the winds. I was told that 30 knots in any direction would not be unusual where we're going. I don't have much experience flying in really gnarly crosswinds, though I'm going to make it my mission to go up with a CFI on the worst crosswind days I can find between now and then.

I was advised to read Fletcher Anderson's Flying the Mountains beforehand. Got it on order now.
 
denverpilot said:
I've flown with three of the folks on that list and know five of them.

Out of that list, Jer/ Eberhard is tough but fair, and quite fun to fly with. He's too far north for me to get up with him as often as I'd like. He's also quite addicted to backcountry flying and loves a good XC adventure.

http://www.jerslash.net/ - photo section is fun. He'll be at OSH with Cessnas 2 Oshkosh if you are going to be there and want to meet/talk to him about plans.
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Jer/ was the other pilot on our trip to Edwards AFB last fall. "Addicted to backcountry" doesn't begin to describe him.
Rob Duncan has been busy with touring around with a TBM Avenger and running Airbase One. I haven't flown with him (yet).
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Flew in his Cessna 185 to OSH last year. Definitely memorable!
Bruce Hulley hasn't been able to hold a medical for years, but is a capable instructor for someone who's 100% up for all duties as PIC. He had some more medical challenges this year and I don't know if he's back to flying yet. I've flown with him and he's got a lot of knowledge in his head. Lots of years of mountain flying. Very "stream of consciousness" style.
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He's flying but not as PIC.
Have heard good things about the folks up at KBJC who were already mentioned also, and I think there's a number of younger "next generation" younger CFIs who are good but not on that list who CPA would probably recommend if you dropped them a line. (Website is a bit dated on that page, I think.)

September/October we start to get our couple of weeks of almost continuous high winds (usually end of September early October) and that can curtail mountain flights for a couple of weeks. It also starts to cool down a bit so that's helpful for Density Altitude considerations.

Not sure who's handling it, but someone's tending the CPA Facebook "user"/page. You can reach the organization there too.
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OK - I'm your CPA contact, always ready to answer questions. I'm responsible for the Facebook page as well as a few other things.

But I vote for John over at Western Skyways also.
 
1200AGL said:
I'll be visiting a friend in Denver during the last weekend of September. As a flatlander who's never set foot in Colorado before, I'm thinking about extending the trip to get some mountain flying training (Leadville is on my bucket list). According to Google, KAPA and Jeffco are both ~30 minutes from my buddy's place. I'd need to rent an airplane there.

I see that the Colorado Pilot's Association has a list of approved instructors, but I'd really appreciate any recommendations for an instructor/outfit.
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Paul

Give us a couple days notice when you'll be arriving out here and it'll be another excuse....er...reason to have a CO-POA lunch/dinner/flyin someplace. Hm...Leadville sounds good. When you finish your flight to LXV, stop off in Salida (get gas) and we'll plan to have lunch there.
 
murphey said:
Paul

Give us a couple days notice when you'll be arriving out here and it'll be another excuse....er...reason to have a CO-POA lunch/dinner/flyin someplace. Hm...Leadville sounds good. When you finish your flight to LXV, stop off in Salida (get gas) and we'll plan to have lunch there.
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Will do. It would be cool to meet up when I'm out there.

I don't know what's on the agenda for the flying day, yet, but I'll post the details when I find out.
 
Just talked to Jer/ - it's not mountain flying but he has open seats in his 206 going to OSH via the Cessnas 2 Oshkosh group so he's leaving on Friday.

Anyone who wants to be part of a mass arrival once in their lives, could give him a ring and talk about splitting costs.

He's staying until Sunday following.

He's also on the hunt for someone who's returning to DEN area from OSH on Wednesday (mid-week) for a ride for someone else in his family.
 
If all goes as planned, I'll get into Denver tomorrow morning. The schedule got shuffled around a bit and it turns out that I'll be flying with John Bowman. I am really looking forward to this training.

I've been flying gliders most of the summer and have only managed to log a few hours of airplane time, so hopefully my skills will be up to the task.

Paul
 
Tell John that Tony from Steamboat says hi!
 
1200AGL said:
If all goes as planned, I'll get into Denver tomorrow morning. The schedule got shuffled around a bit and it turns out that I'll be flying with John Bowman. I am really looking forward to this training.

I've been flying gliders most of the summer and have only managed to log a few hours of airplane time, so hopefully my skills will be up to the task.

Paul
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So, does this mean we need a CO-POA dinner/lunch/whatever? How about Wed dinner? If you're flying with John, you're on the west side of town. Do we have a quorum? Or minyan? Or even a minion?
 
I need minions. Know any? ;)

We talking the 28th (this week) or next?

If this week, I have to be home between 7P-8P to handle a volunteer job, so I'm out.

If next week there is supposedly some pilot group that meets at Maggie Smith's Irish Pub at Arapahoe and Peoria (northwest corner, other side of Arapahoe from KAPA) every first Wednesday of the month. I haven't been to it yet.
 
denverpilot said:
I need minions. Know any? ;)

We talking the 28th (this week) or next?

If this week, I have to be home between 7P-8P to handle a volunteer job, so I'm out.

If next week there is supposedly some pilot group that meets at Maggie Smith's Irish Pub at Arapahoe and Peoria (northwest corner, other side of Arapahoe from KAPA) every first Wednesday of the month. I haven't been to it yet.
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I'm assuming this week. Depends how long Paul will be in the area. Thursday? Friday?
 
I won't be around on the 28th (tomorrow) but Thursday or Friday are possibilities.
 
denverpilot said:
I need minions. Know any? ;)

We talking the 28th (this week) or next?

If this week, I have to be home between 7P-8P to handle a volunteer job, so I'm out.

If next week there is supposedly some pilot group that meets at Maggie Smith's Irish Pub at Arapahoe and Peoria (northwest corner, other side of Arapahoe from KAPA) every first Wednesday of the month. I haven't been to it yet.
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There is indeed a pilot group that meets at Maggie Smith's the first Wednesday of the month.
 
I'm heading out of town Friday noon, too. Thursday evening is fully booked tending the smoker - preparing lunch for 30 of our closest camping friends.
 
And I'm stuck in town with no engine....but it did show up yesterday, all nicely painted and boxed up like a gift basket! Wonder how long to install it, test run it, then spend 3 hours burning in the rings....

Rats - and September was incredibly fantastic flying weather...
 
murphey said:
And I'm stuck in town with no engine....but it did show up yesterday, all nicely painted and boxed up like a gift basket! Wonder how long to install it, test run it, then spend 3 hours burning in the rings....

Rats - and September was incredibly fantastic flying weather...
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From coffin corner? <insert maniacal laugh here>

Yup, weather has been nice - no wind to speak of in the mountains - and I was stuck in Wyoming.
 
stagecoachco said:
And yet another recomendation for John Bowman at Western Air. He is a very experienced Mtn pilot. Tell him Tony sent you...

and BTW John owns a 150hp/150 that is on lease back at Western. If you are light enough it is a real hoot to fly in the mountains. It is what I did my Mtn Flying Course in.
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I wonder how much this costs. A trip I wanted to do in CA has turned into people telling me I need mountain flying training. So the immediate thoughts would be CA but if I could go to CO instead, why not? How many days / hours / weeks does it take? I would love to fly a 150 in the mountains. I fly a 152 here anyways.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
A trip I wanted to do in CA has turned into people telling me I need mountain flying training.
Click to expand...
You know what... Here's a suggestion: ignore those people. Mountain training is all about the weather and knowing when to quit. Is mountain training going to teach you good judgement? No! Of course, the tips you get at those courses are precious, but nothing should preclude you going to to Sierra foothills in your 152 and learning how winds blow over the ridges and the like. In fact, Cali is the best this way, since the altitudes grow from sea level to oxigen level. I wish I were so lucky with a playground.

It is all common sense: do not get into a situation where you have no exit. Always imagine an immediate turn, engine off, away from the raising terrain, ensure you can complete it. If your turn circle is greater than the gap do not go into it! If the winds funnel through the gap, do not go into it! If the weather deteriorates, run away and land at once. The rest is just details, like: fly up along the slope, fly down across the slope, or do not fly on center of the gap, fly to a side, and so on.

Denverites on this board always like to scare us up with the crash stories, but 90% of the time it's the same thing, over and over again: suicide. Flew into a narrow canyon under cloud cover, in howling winds, made a wrong turn, *splat*. Whyyyyyyy!
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
I wonder how much this costs. A trip I wanted to do in CA has turned into people telling me I need mountain flying training. So the immediate thoughts would be CA but if I could go to CO instead, why not? How many days / hours / weeks does it take? I would love to fly a 150 in the mountains. I fly a 152 here anyways.
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No fixed amount. I got two formal sessions of mountain training, one when I did my HP/complex endorsement in a Bonanza, and a second when I did a mandatory 5 hours of dual in my Arrow for insurance purposes when I bought it. Figure 5 - 10 hours to get proficient as a minimum, plus some ground.
 
zaitcev said:
You know what... Here's a suggestion: ignore those people. Mountain training is all about the weather and knowing when to quit. Is mountain training going to teach you good judgement? No! Of course, the tips you get at those courses are precious, but nothing should preclude you going to to Sierra foothills in your 152 and learning how winds blow over the ridges and the like. In fact, Cali is the best this way, since the altitudes grow from sea level to oxigen level. I wish I were so lucky with a playground.

It is all common sense: do not get into a situation where you have no exit. Always imagine an immediate turn, engine off, away from the raising terrain, ensure you can complete it. If your turn circle is greater than the gap do not go into it! If the winds funnel through the gap, do not go into it! If the weather deteriorates, run away and land at once. The rest is just details, like: fly up along the slope, fly down across the slope, or do not fly on center of the gap, fly to a side, and so on.

Denverites on this board always like to scare us up with the crash stories, but 90% of the time it's the same thing, over and over again: suicide. Flew into a narrow canyon under cloud cover, in howling winds, made a wrong turn, *splat*. Whyyyyyyy!
Click to expand...

Thanks. Just found out the airport I want to go to is under 5,000 feet. Close to 4,950 but technically that is not what my agreement says.

The flight school I currently rent the 172 from has a "high altitude check out" rule with regards to landing at 5,000+ elevation airports.

Lake Tahoe IS more than 5,000 but another school at my airport doesn't have any rules and claims to have newer 172s for about the same price.
 
Buy Sparky's book on mountain flying, wroth it (can't clear the brain-fart on the title however)
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
I wonder how much this costs. A trip I wanted to do in CA has turned into people telling me I need mountain flying training. So the immediate thoughts would be CA but if I could go to CO instead, why not? How many days / hours / weeks does it take? I would love to fly a 150 in the mountains. I fly a 152 here anyways.
Click to expand...

I'm sure you can find good mountain flight training in CA. That said, John Bowman can present and fly a very nice course in a day. Since mountain flying is usually done early it's best to do the ground portion on one day and fly the next.

Ask around locally for good mountain flight instruction before jumping on a plane for Denver (unless you just want to visit anyway). Maybe you could catch Mari (everskyward) on a trip out there (SF) some time. She may defer on formal training in "little planes" ;) but she's spent as much single engine piston time in the hills as anybody.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
Thanks. Just found out the airport I want to go to is under 5,000 feet. Close to 4,950 but technically that is not what my agreement says.

The flight school I currently rent the 172 from has a "high altitude check out" rule with regards to landing at 5,000+ elevation airports.

Lake Tahoe IS more than 5,000 but another school at my airport doesn't have any rules and claims to have newer 172s for about the same price.
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Peter means well but perhaps takes some things for granted. There's good reason for a high altitude airport check-out. Engine operation is different since you have to lean for max power during the run-up on normally aspirated engines. Ground speeds are higher and runway requirements are longer. It's good to go over these things with an instructor when you learn to fly at sea level. These things aren't specific to mountain flight, just high density altitude operations.
 
Clark1961 said:
I'm sure you can find good mountain flight training in CA. That said, John Bowman can present and fly a very nice course in a day. Since mountain flying is usually done early it's best to do the ground portion on one day and fly the next.

Ask around locally for good mountain flight instruction before jumping on a plane for Denver (unless you just want to visit anyway). Maybe you could catch Mari (everskyward) on a trip out there (SF) some time. She may defer on formal training in "little planes" ;) but she's spent as much single engine piston time in the hills as anybody.
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Thanks Clark - I am meeting Mari (hopefully) in October! When I see her I will ask.
 
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