Mountain flying course

polaris

polaris

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polaris
I am thinking of taking a week off work next May to do a mountain flying course in Denver. I live in the Midwest, so there are no mountains here. I am doing this because I want to one day fly west. I don't know when that would be, but next May would be the only time in the foreseeable future that I would be able to get a full week off work to devote to this.

The question is: Is this worth it if I don't know when I will be flying in the mountains next? Are basic mountain flying skills such that once you learn them and take good notes and ask good questions, you keep them for life? Obviously the more you fly in the mountains, the better you get at it. But I am wondering if I should be doing mountain flying courses every year, every other year, etc. to keep proficient.
 
polaris said:
I am thinking of taking a week off work next May to do a mountain flying course in Denver. I live in the Midwest, so there are no mountains here. I am doing this because I want to one day fly west. I don't know when that would be, but next May would be the only time in the foreseeable future that I would be able to get a full week off work to devote to this.

The question is: Is this worth it if I don't know when I will be flying in the mountains next? Are basic mountain flying skills such that once you learn them and take good notes and ask good questions, you keep them for life? Obviously the more you fly in the mountains, the better you get at it. But I am wondering if I should be doing mountain flying courses every year, every other year, etc. to keep proficient.
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I'm sure it's worth it and hopefully Murphey will chime in here to tell you when the Colorado Pilot's Association class is held. Otherwise you can hire a private instructor. I'm sure people will have suggestions...
 
The Colorado Pilots Assoc course will be in early June. Full day of ground followed by full day (4-5 hours) of flying. It counts as a BFR. Even if you're not planning on flying RSN (Real Soon Now) in mountains it helps. Improvements include understanding performance of your aircraft, spot and precise landings, emergency landings.

Local schools offer mountain flying courses. Independence has a 4 hour ground program. (McAir or Western) have a ground school but it's more geared to locals since it meets once a week for a few weeks.

These courses are specific to Colorado and to some extent New Mexico, mountains and weather. Welcome to geography! Planning on flying in California? The fundamentals are the same but the grography and weather are very different, so take a class there.

New Mexico Pilots Assoc conduct similar course to CPA. Don't know about Wyoming. These are not backcountry courses. For that you go to McCall's in Idaho.

Keep watching the websites

www.Coloradopilots.org
www.nmpilots.org

Editorial comment: those of us that live out here find the AOPA mountain course absolutely laughable. I'm waiting for a flatlander who runs into trouble (filling a 172 with 4 people and ran into trouble at Steamboat) to claim "but I took the AOPA online course and know all about mountain flying!"
 
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polaris said:
The question is: Is this worth it if I don't know when I will be flying in the mountains next? Are basic mountain flying skills such that once you learn them and take good notes and ask good questions, you keep them for life? Obviously the more you fly in the mountains, the better you get at it. But I am wondering if I should be doing mountain flying courses every year, every other year, etc. to keep proficient.
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Yeah, it's worth doing even if you don't know when you'll use it. I did mine at specialty flight training in Boulder. Very happy with the results.

There are some good books on the subject also (eg imeson) that will help you reinforce the stuff.

But, yeah, if it's been a year or two since you've flown in the mountains and you don't have a lot of experience, then a tune-up flight with a CFI is good insurance.

Another thing that I found *very* helpful was flying approaches to the airports I was planning in a simulator. Very cool to be familiar with the topology and recognize features even though it's your first time arriving at a particular airport.

My favorite example of this was flying into West Yellowstone, which isn't a challenging environment by any stretch, but there's a lot of hills that look quite similar and one gap that I wanted to use to get through. Having flown it a couple times in the sim it was a piece of cake to find it in real life.
 
rwellner98 said:
Yeah, it's worth doing even if you don't know when you'll use it. I did mine at specialty flight training in Boulder. Very happy with the results.

There are some good books on the subject also (eg imeson) that will help you reinforce the stuff.

But, yeah, if it's been a year or two since you've flown in the mountains and you don't have a lot of experience, then a tune-up flight with a CFI is good insurance.

Another thing that I found *very* helpful was flying approaches to the airports I was planning in a simulator. Very cool to be familiar with the topology and recognize features even though it's your first time arriving at a particular airport.

My favorite example of this was flying into West Yellowstone, which isn't a challenging environment by any stretch, but there's a lot of hills that look quite similar and one gap that I wanted to use to get through. Having flown it a couple times in the sim it was a piece of cake to find it in real life.
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I did the exact same thing before I made the trip to West Yellowstone! I agree it really helps!
 
Thanks for the great tips, guys! I was actually considering hiring a private instructor at Western, since I heard good things about them.

One of you mentioned that Wyoming flying is different. I wanted some options down the line. Pardon me if this is a stupid question as I am a flatlander, but is the topography/weather in the Yellowstone/Western SD area that much different from the Colorado-area Rockies? I guess what I am asking is -- if I want to fly in Wyoming AND Colorado in the future, is it better that I take a course somewhere other than Western at Denver? I was leaning Denver because I have friends there, and I have a nonstop flight to DIA.
 
polaris said:
One of you mentioned that Wyoming flying is different. I wanted some options down the line. Pardon me if this is a stupid question as I am a flatlander, but is the topography/weather in the Yellowstone/Western SD area that much different from the Colorado-area Rockies? I guess what I am asking is -- if I want to fly in Wyoming AND Colorado in the future, is it better that I take a course somewhere other than Western at Denver? I was leaning Denver because I have friends there, and I have a nonstop flight to DIA.
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A course with Western in Denver can be oriented however you like not that Wyoming flying is significantly different from Colorado. It gets colder sooner the further north ya go, other than that samey, samey.
 
Definitely worth it, make sure to take good notes to review when you do eventually go up.

Mountain flying is amazing.
 
Theres nothing quite like the odd feeling of being 10k+MSL and barely 1K AGL.
 
polaris said:
Thanks for the great tips, guys! I was actually considering hiring a private instructor at Western, since I heard good things about them.

One of you mentioned that Wyoming flying is different. I wanted some options down the line. Pardon me if this is a stupid question as I am a flatlander, but is the topography/weather in the Yellowstone/Western SD area that much different from the Colorado-area Rockies? I guess what I am asking is -- if I want to fly in Wyoming AND Colorado in the future, is it better that I take a course somewhere other than Western at Denver? I was leaning Denver because I have friends there, and I have a nonstop flight to DIA.
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John Bowman is you use Western. Many of the folks on this list have flown with him.
 
polaris said:
The question is: Is this worth it if I don't know when I will be flying in the mountains next? Are basic mountain flying skills such that once you learn them and take good notes and ask good questions, you keep them for life? Obviously the more you fly in the mountains, the better you get at it. But I am wondering if I should be doing mountain flying courses every year, every other year, etc. to keep proficient.
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I think once would give you what you need for basics. If you're around mountains a LOT, there's always going to be that one trip that was a little "different". For high DA operations, that'll stick fast and you'll find that some operations that looked good during calculations resulted in a higher "pucker" factor then you'd like.

For the ridge wind items, forecast winds and what you get will vary sometimes drastically. THIS is the area you want exposure to escape massive downdrafts, avoid extreme TB, etc.
 
Or come to Idaho, the premier backcountry flying state in the lower 48. There are several mountain courses with some of the best instructors in the buisiness to choose from. The best are at McCall with strips ranging from Ho Hum to Holy S@$*t in an hour radius. Don
 
From Chicago, airfare to Idaho will cost $200 more (and require a stopover). And I'd have to rent a car and drive for 2 hours to McCall. Is this worth it? Should I go to Idaho instead of Colorado for the full experience? Would doing the backcountry program in Idaho suffice for regular mountain flying?
 
polaris said:
From Chicago, airfare to Idaho will cost $200 more (and require a stopover). And I'd have to rent a car and drive for 2 hours to McCall. Is this worth it? Should I go to Idaho instead of Colorado for the full experience? Would doing the backcountry program in Idaho suffice for regular mountain flying?
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Yes, you should go to Idaho. It is well worth it. Colorado pales in comparison to Idaho as far as mountain airports go.

http://www.mountaincanyonflying.com/
 
polaris said:
From Chicago, airfare to Idaho will cost $200 more (and require a stopover). And I'd have to rent a car and drive for 2 hours to McCall. Is this worth it? Should I go to Idaho instead of Colorado for the full experience? Would doing the backcountry program in Idaho suffice for regular mountain flying?
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It really depends on the type of flying you're going to do and where. If back country and dirt, then McCall's is the best. If you're always going to be on paved runways but at high altitude, McCall's or Colorado Pilots or New Mexico Pilots.
 
Put it this way.

If you took a Mt flying course in Idaho you would be good to go in Colorado.

If you took a Mt flying course in Colorado, it would be worthless for the canyons in Idaho.
 
Thanks guys. I want to do this in mid-May. McCall told me that is on the fringe of acceptable weather season. What do you guys think about that? I won't be able to do the seminar, so I'd have to pay out of pocket for the non-seminar prices -- $250/hr for instruction only. Is that the standard rate for mt instruction?
 
kgruber said:
Put it this way.

If you took a Mt flying course in Idaho you would be good to go in Colorado.

If you took a Mt flying course in Colorado, it would be worthless for the canyons in Idaho.
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You could look at it another way and say that neither the mountains nor the airports in Idaho are nearly the altitude of those in Colorado so it depends what the OP is looking for.
 
Are there Idaho-like canyons within flyable distance from Denver? So I can go there during my training in Denver?
 
polaris said:
Are there Idaho-like canyons within flyable distance from Denver? So I can go there during my training in Denver?
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The thing is, in Idaho there are backcountry dirt strips that you can land on. Not so much so in Colorado, especially public ones, unless someone else has suggestions.
 
It's hard to find CFIs who have worked in real mountain ops (non lil hill flying), I think the easiest way to learn about Mt flying is go up on a few flights with a CFIG in a glider, fly some bowls and waves and work some ridges.

It'll probably teach you way more then the local self proclaimed Cessna CFI mountain expert :yes:
 
kgruber said:
Colorado pales in comparison to Idaho as far as mountain airports go.

If you took a Mt flying course in Idaho you would be good to go in Colorado.

If you took a Mt flying course in Colorado, it would be worthless for the canyons in Idaho.
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Such generalizations could prove harmful for flatlanders not exposed to mountain flying. There may be a confusion between mountain flying and backcountry flying.

Colorado has plenty of airports located at 7,000-8,000 feet elevation, 2 airports are above 9,000 feet MSL. Density altitudes at many airports reach 9k-12k almost daily during summertime. For many airplanes such density altitudes are not even charted in the POH performance tables. Real life aircraft performance, even with turbos, often results in more adrenalin than lift and speed. High DA aircraft performance needs to be experienced to be believed.

Colorado mountains (and valleys) are quite a bit higher compared to Idaho. Most flights into the mountains should involve oxygen planning and SpO2 monitoring. Depending on winds aloft, some ridges have to be crossed at above 14k, which is quite taxing on many normally aspirated piston singles and twins. Mountain wave effects are present through most of the year. And to top it off, Colorado high altitude mountain weather is a very serious business.

Mountains are unforgiving. Quality mountain flying instruction is essential for anyone who comes to our mountains for the first time. Good books (Sparky Imeson, Geeting and Woerner) help too.

Please take it seriously.
 
Apelsin Elise said:
Such generalizations could prove harmful for flatlanders not exposed to mountain flying. There may be a confusion between mountain flying and backcountry flying.

Colorado has plenty of airports located at 7,000-8,000 feet elevation, 2 airports are above 9,000 feet MSL. Density altitudes at many airports reach 9k-12k almost daily during summertime. For many airplanes such density altitudes are not even charted in the POH performance tables. Real life aircraft performance, even with turbos, often results in more adrenalin than lift and speed. High DA aircraft performance needs to be experienced to be believed.

Colorado mountains (and valleys) are quite a bit higher compared to Idaho. Most flights into the mountains should involve oxygen planning and SpO2 monitoring. Depending on winds aloft, some ridges have to be crossed at above 14k, which is quite taxing on many normally aspirated piston singles and twins. Mountain wave effects are present through most of the year. And to top it off, Colorado high altitude mountain weather is a very serious business.

Mountains are unforgiving. Quality mountain flying instruction is essential for anyone who comes to our mountains for the first time. Good books (Sparky Imeson, Geeting and Woerner) help too.

Please take it seriously.
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What in the world are you talking about? Are you saying there is no high density altitude in Idaho?

You're the one to get serious. Maybe you needed to sit around the fire with Sparky, like I regularly did.

Yea right, backcountry flying in Idaho is at sea level. Get real!
 
That's not what he was saying at all.

CPA talks about their course as being mountain flying to normal paved airports with lots of information about how to navigate successfully through the Rockies and show you specific places and passes.

Idaho is more of that with unimproved airstrip ops tacked on.

If you have no need for (or insurance that won't allow) learning unimproved backcountry airstrip techniques, or an aircraft that can only handle the tamest of them, then either place is similar.

Heck areas of a number of other States are good too in smaller doses.

Sparky started here and moved to Idaho. Then crashed twice and killed himself. We call miss him.

Most of us still wonder what really happened. Lots of rumors, nothing I've bothered to try to confirm. His book is still an excellent primer.
 
kgruber said:
Yea right, backcountry flying in Idaho is at sea level.
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Yes, for me it is. My home base airport is at 5,600 MSL. This is my sea level. Everything below is underwater :)

Seriously, I was addressing your comment that "if you took a Mt flying course in Idaho you would be good to go in Colorado". I beg to differ and I have explained why. Higher airport elevations, higher DA, oxygen requirements, different weather.

The opposite is also true: Colorado has no unimproved mountain strips (with public access anyway) and thus can not be used effectively in preparation to flying in Idaho backcountry.

I never met Mr. Imeson, but I do not consider the fact to be disqualifying from this discussion. I have flown in both Colorado and Idaho though.
 
denverpilot said:
Idaho is more of that with unimproved airstrip ops tacked on.

If you have no need for (or insurance that won't allow) learning unimproved backcountry airstrip techniques, or an aircraft that can only handle the tamest of them, then either place is similar.

.
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Small nit to pick, but those techniques WILL make you a better pilot at every airport, not just unimproved backcountry techniques.

"Colorado mountain flying" is centered around how to AVOID impact with the earth. "Idaho backcountry flying" is centered around how to EXACTLY impact earth, where you want to, with doses of avoidance, as required.
 
kgruber said:
What in the world are you talking about? Are you saying there is no high density altitude in Idaho?

You're the one to get serious. Maybe you needed to sit around the fire with Sparky, like I regularly did.

Yea right, backcountry flying in Idaho is at sea level. Get real!
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What I find interesting is this discussion is rapidly turning into high-wing/low-wing. As pointed out by many people, there is a very distinct difference between paved airports at high altitude and backcountry flying. Backcountry does not always include high altitude. Backcountry does not always mean mountains & canyons. Some of the techniques are the same but there are many backcountry fields that are not in rugged canyons, not at high altitude.

Leadville is a paved, almost 10K MSL, 6400 ft long runway and wide valley at each end. LaGarita is 8100 MSL, 3400’ long dirt / clump grass runway in a canyon with a wall at one end.

Are the techniques the same? Yes & No. Am I going to take my cherokee to LaGarita? Probably not. In fact at our flyin to LaGarita earlier this year, most of the tailwheels landed at LaGarita (and one C182) but everyone else went to either Hooper or Del Monte. Oh, wait, Hooper is also considered backcountry. But it's flat, dirt and in the very large plain just north of Alamosa and a short drive from LaGarita.

Which type of education you seek is dependent on which type of flying you're planning.

But let me also repeat what others here have stated - make sure the CFI is someone who really knows mountain and/or backcountry. Someone who's been doing the environment for a very long time.
 
Thanks for all the insight guys. I talked to John Bowman at Journey Aviation in Boulder, and I will be flying with him next May.
 
polaris said:
Thanks for all the insight guys. I talked to John Bowman at Journey Aviation in Boulder, and I will be flying with him next May.
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An excellent choice! John is superbly knowledgeable in both high-altitude and backcountry (which should make kgruber happy).
 
I hope this doesn't thread hijack too much. But. I'm just starting on my PPL and flying out of EDU (Davis California)..with an elevation of a whopping 69 feet. However, I was born in S. Lake Tahoe and go up there by car once in a while. My buddy who fights fires as a helicopter pilot hates flying over the sierras when he has to get his gear anywhere east. He said he typically flys south first before he heads over (which isn't cheap for his company). He said that I need to seriously respect the air up there. So, I have no plans to fly to Lake Tahoe anytime soon.

If, after a year or two, do I really need to take such an intense course out of Colorado / Idao, or would a local CFI out of an airport in the foothills be enough?

Elevation of South Lake Tahoe is 6269, with the summit for cars around 7400 feet.

- Mister Curious
 
TazzyTazzy said:
do I really need to take such an intense course out of Colorado / Idao, or would a local CFI out of an airport in the foothills be enough?

Elevation of South Lake Tahoe is 6269, with the summit for cars around 7400 feet.

- Mister Curious
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No and No.

You don't need to fork over Four Thousand dollars for a ex-airline guy to give you 9hrs of dual (that's like $444hr, damn good for CFI pay!). You want to learn mountain ops, go on a few flight at a glider club and work some wave and ridge lift with a CFIG that can keep you up for a while (hard to BS that), you'll learn MUCH more about mountain ops that way.

I used to fly the cascades in WA in a lil 85hp Champ, it's knowing what part of the Mt. that going to help you up and what parts going to swat you down!


After reading that Mountian Canyon Flying website, WOW, Four Grand$$$ for 6-9 hours of dual and some class time with other students and you need to provide your own plane!!!

Also there only appears to be only one CFI on there that seems to have actually worked in the mountains (AK), having bunches of airline, citation or fighter time ain't the bio of someone who should be commanding that much money for a mountain course. Guess the rich fish are biting, so good for those CFIs!
 
ChitDisturber said:
No and No.

You don't need to fork over Four Thousand dollars for a ex-airline guy to give you 9hrs of dual (that's like $444hr, damn good for CFI pay!). You want to learn mountain ops, go on a few flight at a glider club and work some wave and ridge lift with a CFIG that can keep you up for a while (hard to BS that), you'll learn MUCH more about mountain ops that way.

I used to fly the cascades in WA in a lil 85hp Champ, it's knowing what part of the Mt. that going to help you up and what parts going to swat you down!


After reading that Mountian Canyon Flying website, WOW, Four Grand$$$ for 6-9 hours of dual and some class time with other students and you need to provide your own plane!!!

Also there only appears to be only one CFI on there that seems to have actually worked in the mountains (AK), having bunches of airline, citation or fighter time ain't the bio of someone who should be commanding that much money for a mountain course. Guess the rich fish are biting, so good for those CFIs!
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Golly gee, guess the Colorado Pilots needs to up the price. Less than $500 for an 8-9 hours of ground school followed by 4-5 hours of flying (not counting fuel for the airplane).

Update:
Specifically - $185 for all day ground, flat fee of $250 for the very experienced mountain CFI (2013 price)
 
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That pretty much sums it up. Come to Colorado. Many schools around here offer excellent mountain flying courses. Prices are quite reasonable too. You won't regret it.
 
TazzyTazzy said:
I hope this doesn't thread hijack too much. But. I'm just starting on my PPL and flying out of EDU (Davis California)..with an elevation of a whopping 69 feet. However, I was born in S. Lake Tahoe and go up there by car once in a while. My buddy who fights fires as a helicopter pilot hates flying over the sierras when he has to get his gear anywhere east. He said he typically flys south first before he heads over (which isn't cheap for his company). He said that I need to seriously respect the air up there. So, I have no plans to fly to Lake Tahoe anytime soon.

If, after a year or two, do I really need to take such an intense course out of Colorado / Idao, or would a local CFI out of an airport in the foothills be enough?

Elevation of South Lake Tahoe is 6269, with the summit for cars around 7400 feet.

- Mister Curious
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I don't think you need to go to Colorado or Idaho to take a mountain flying course unless you really want to do that since your main interest is flying from Davis to South Lake Tahoe. There must be local schools or instructors who would do that. I flew to South Lake Tahoe and other places which I can't recall years ago in a C-150 on a mountain checkout.
 
Thanks. I didn't look at the website until after my post. :\ But, ya, that's a lot of money! I'll find a glider CFI and/or a CFI in the foothills. It's a long ways off either way.
 
TazzyTazzy said:
Thanks. I didn't look at the website until after my post. :\ But, ya, that's a lot of money! I'll find a glider CFI and/or a CFI in the foothills. It's a long ways off either way.
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Good choice. Get Sparky's book and read it after you earn the PP cert. - it's useful for all the flying you're going to do and helps fill in information which is usually missing in PP training.
 
murphey said:
Golly gee, guess the Colorado Pilots needs to up the price. Less than $500 for an 8-9 hours of ground school followed by 4-5 hours of flying (not counting fuel for the airplane).
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Less then $500 PER HOUR :wink2:

Mountain Canyon Flying said:
All Course prices are if you bring your own airplane.* Rental aircraft fees are in addition to course prices.

Regular Basic Seminar - $3900 / Per Pilot* -
Course price includes 6.0 to 9.0 hours dual Mountain/Canyon flight time, Mountain and Canyon Flight Training Manual and all supplemental course materials, approximately 15 hours of classroom instruction,
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