More out of control cops

[FastEddieB]

Working for many years as a Field Training Officer, we really did our very best to weed out the "Cop B's".

We called it being "badge heavy" and were on the alert for it. We could and did wash out trainees who's behavior was out of limits and could not be corrected.

Then again, it can be a lot like some pilots - play along and do everything by the book in training, and then go rogue when by oneself. That's very hard to prevent entirely, though with police officers supervisors are also on the lookout for trends - excessive use-of-force reports and/or citizen complaints agains an individual officer.

Could the training be better? Of course, especially for smaller departments where money for extensive training may be hard to come by.

But better screening processes are in everyone's best interest.

 

[EdFred]

So I guess the question is, why are some/most/all of these guys allowed to continue the job once/if they go rogue?

 

[PPC1052]

There is, and you need some additional training beyond what the academy gives you. I will let a guy come at me with a screwdriver all day, every day and have no issue with it. He'll end up pinned on the ground and the screwdriver will lay harmlessly next to him. No shots fires, no beating the crap out of him, no punching and kicking him. A simple pin, and no injuries unless he continues to struggle.

The close quarters training you guys get is pathetic. I saw that first hand when they would come to class and we would present them with a "how would you handle this?" situation. That was the one plus about teaching MA: Getting to throw the cops around and make them feel a little pain, legally.

Is there a specific discipline or style (or what ever is the appropriate word) that you teach? Just curious.

Can you achieve the same level of success in every student, or does it vary based on aptitude. I am not a very physical specimen, myself. Not blessed with great quickness, speed, strength, coordination, or endurance.

 

[upstateny]

Working for many years as a Field Training Officer, we really did our very best to weed out the "Cop B's".

I hope you, or someone like you, corrected one of my biggest regrets.

I was teaching a scuba class and the first day I had the students introduce themselves and state why they were taking the course. One college kid said he was in the Criminal Justice program with the hope of being a State Trooper and thought being a diver would look good on his resume. When asked why a State Trooper, he replied, "I can't wait to get out there and bust some heads." To this day I regret not talking to someone at the college about his attitude and/or convincing him consider a career change.

 

[DavidH]

Im concerned about being stabbed by anything, including a screwdriver. Arent you?? I personally am going to take steps up to and including shooting someone, in order to avoid getting stabbed. That said, if theres a better way to not get stabbed than shooting the guy, I'm all for it. Its different for each 'situation'.

I know you cant wrap your head around someone putting themselves in that type of situation. Most people cant. That's why guys like you, need guys like me. Me? I need Firemen. I don't run INTO the burning building. I run OUT of the burning building. And accountants. I run AWAY from the IRS, not TOWARDS them.

And yes, some 'situations' are a rush. I also skydive, so clearly I DO like a rush.

Not trying to belittle anyone... but, I don't feel a need for what that mentality brings to the table. I've never felt that I needed to call on an LEO for protection. I'm quite capable of protecting myself and those around me. That said, I realize their job function is not to protect or save anyone (you know... Running into the burning building). The primary function has become revenue generation and writing reports after a "crime" has been committed.

I consider myself a "run into a building to help another" kind of guy. I do my best to place an equal value on another's life. I don't look for trouble, but respond appropriately when trouble comes looking for me. If someone came into my home with a screwdriver, my use of force might even be considered excessive by some... but I'm not going into another's home looking for that kind of confrontation either.

 

[JCranford]

Is there a specific discipline or style (or what ever is the appropriate word) that you teach? Just curious.

Can you achieve the same level of success in every student, or does it vary based on aptitude. I am not a very physical specimen, myself. Not blessed with great quickness, speed, strength, coordination, or endurance.

I assume you were asking Ed, but Ill answer from the Academy perspective.

Our defensive tactics instructors are certified in PPCT (Pressure Point Control Tactics was the original name long ago, but the PP part is less what they teach). Most of the PPCT techniques are joint manipulations (arm bars, wrist locks, escort positions, distraction strikes) and in my opinion are outdated and borderline useless.

We use a regional police academy. Meaning that multiple area agencies send recruits to it instead of a large department running their own dedicated academy. Most mid-size departments do it this way. Their main goal is getting the recruits to pass the state certification exam, ie, academics. DT and physical conditioning are secondary.

When we get them back they get 5 weeks of agency specific instruction and part of that is another block of DT instruction.

Add to that the fact that the Administration does NOT want to see injuries in training and you have the recipe for lackluster training. Ed can tell you that injuries during realistic training DO occur from time to time.

Additionally PT standards are not set very high, new hires are out of shape and there is no internal incentive to get in better shape.

Yearly recertification training is more of the same if it isn't cut out entirely.

I'd say maybe 25 - 30% of our guys stay in decent shape. Out of that maybe 50% of those have any sort of outside defensive training.

Dont even get me started on how woefully bad our firearms training is.

 

[FastEddieB]

Is there a specific discipline or style (or what ever is the appropriate word) that you teach? Just curious.

Can you achieve the same level of success in every student, or does it vary based on aptitude. I am not a very physical specimen, myself. Not blessed with great quickness, speed, strength, coordination, or endurance.

Anecdote:

I'm 6'1" and in 1982 in the Police Academy probably weighed 170 lbs or so.

I was a runner, so had lots of endurance, but only average strength.

We did "arrest techniques" drills, to practice what we had learned. One time it was me and a football player (think wide receiver - fast but not heavy or large). The fellow we were taking down was maybe 6', 220 lbs. all muscle and no neck. I'll mention they were both black to complete the mental image, though that's totally irrelevant.

We closed in on him and somehow got him on the ground - I had some judo in college and that always served me well reference leverage and center of gravity and basic throws. But once there, none of the holds were working - we'd try to get some sort of arm bar or wrist lock or nelson or whatever and all being sweaty he would just pull away. After a minute or so of this I realized I was quite pinned - as was my "partner". If the subject had had a screwdriver and evil intent, he could have done some real damage at this point.

My point is, in spite of training an officer will often meet people far stronger and possibly better trained than him or herself. Its a given. And even 2 (or more) on 1 getting a resisting subject under control can be much harder than one would think.

And this is kind of why they see fit to issue guns to police officers - and not just to use against other guns.

 

[Jay Honeck]

In NJ the cops are paid twice the national average; however, the pay in the trouble spots like Newark, Camden and Jersey City are much lower. My small beach town salary without overtime is over $100,000. My buddy makes over $100,000 without overtime and he has only been a cop for 6 years. He can retire at 40. It's a great job if you can get it.

He can retire at FORTY? Surely that's a typo?

 

[iRyan]

He can retire at FORTY? Surely that's a typo?

Nope. Not a typo. Just had a friend retire from the state police at 42. Now, the pension wont be 100% but I think it's 85% plus full health and education benefits. We were looking to buy a plane and start a flight school, but my wife said no. Anyway, it's a nice gig but I wouldnt want to do it. Some of the stories my brother tells are just mind blowing. It is not just cops, but all public employees here. It is not uncommon for lawyers to have a private practice, be a municipal judge, a prosecutor and a public defender. Throw in some who are also on the town council and you have it made.

 

[ClimbnSink]

He can retire at FORTY? Surely that's a typo?

In the Northeast it is 6 figures after a couple years, gold plated bennies, 20 years and you are out. If you weren't a dumbass you picked up a law degree at night(on the govs dime) or built a contracting side business. Medical and spare change for life. Better then winning the lottery. Of course we'll need more cops to generate more revenue to pay the retirements...

 

[Anthony]

It is not just cops, but all public employees here. It is not uncommon for lawyers to have a private practice, be a municipal judge, a prosecutor and a public defender. Throw in some who are also on the town council and you have it made

That was NOT the intent of government employment where after 20 years you can double, and triple dip at another government agency. So you can get multiple pensions, and salaries concurently and retire MUCH earlier than in the private (producing) sector who pays for ALL of it.

 

[EdFred]

Is there a specific discipline or style (or what ever is the appropriate word) that you teach? Just curious.

Can you achieve the same level of success in every student, or does it vary based on aptitude. I am not a very physical specimen, myself. Not blessed with great quickness, speed, strength, coordination, or endurance.

When I was teaching at the dojo it was Aikido based, but we branched off from the traditional (although we had traditional classes with ranks and everything) for the self defense classes, and incorporated techniques as applicable from Tang Soo Do, Judo, and a handful of others. There is no one perfect art. Aikido is great as a "reactive art" but it does fall short in some areas which is why at certain points in the traditional techniques we would insert from another or transition to a completely different discipline as necessary.

Same level of success with every single student? No. Just like with anything else, some people are going to 'get it' and others are going to struggle. The biggest issue with Aikido (and Judo and a few others) is a lot of people come in wanting to just be be person that gets to do all the throwing and pinning and and everything else, but in order to do that you have to know how to get pinned, get thrown, and everything else without getting hurt. So for the first 2 months or so, it was probably 75% self preservation and being the crash test dummy, before you got to do the 'cool' stuff. So the attrition rate was pretty high.

What I liked about Aikido is it can be as gentle or as rough as you need to be. One of the techniques we'd use (and I would use if I was being come at with a screwdriver) I can take you to the ground and you'll just feel a little bit of pain in your wrist, or if you aren't going nicely, And you need to be put out of commission you wind up with a broken wrist, dislocated elbow, and dislocated shoulder. Of course that also can happen if you do the technique incorrectly, or don't know how to go with it in the dojo. Which is why the first two months is all self preservation.

Since then I've moved on, and trained in boxing, muay thai, and mma. As I've added a bit more to my repertoire, it's become a mish-mash of technique. Perfect? No, but better.

And yes, people get hurt in training. Broken noses, sprains, etc. My worst was a cracked rib when I took a reverse kick to the chest. Complete accident. We were sparring and as my training partner retreated, I moved in to strike, he didn't anticipate me coming in as he turned, and wham. He was planning on just showing me it (the kick) was there as an opportunity, and didn't anticipate me moving in as quickly as I did.

 

[timwinters]

Lets just leave it at 'you don't know me, I don't know you, and we'll (thankfully) never meet' and end all the (one sided) name calling.

That's pretty humorous. I suggest you review your posts in this thread. You might start with #85.

 

[iRyan]

That was NOT the intent of government employment where after 20 years you can double, and triple dip at another government agency. So you can get multiple pensions, and salaries concurently and retire MUCH earlier than in the private (producing) sector who pays for ALL of it.

It is so bad in this state that most of it is illegal in other states. We have mayors that are state senators ( two pensions and somewhat of a conflict of interest), out Lt Gov. is also the Sec of State (two pensions and salaries I believe); we had one town official a few years ago who had 6 full-time jobs. Over time for the police is not required to be disclosed by law, and it is not uncommon for police in their mid 30s to bring in over 140,000. All public employees (teachers, cops, etc) salaries are public record and are quite an eye opener. This dumb-ss should have become a police officer after law school.

 

[JCranford]

That's pretty humorous. I suggest you review your posts in this thread. You might start with #85.

'Genius' is on par with 'cops are pu$$ies'?

Really? You're pretty sensitive

 

[timwinters]

'Genius' is on par with 'cops are pu$$ies'?

Really? You're pretty sensitive

Nice job of sidestepping. Maybe I was referring to this little gem in the same post:

You two can take your BS Liberal sensitivities and stick em

But at least your dodging confirmed that your are indeed a cop.

 

[Clark1961]

But at least your dodging confirmed that your are indeed a cop.

Naw, that just confirms that he is a qualified and practicing POA poster.

 

[denverpilot]

The close quarters training you guys get is pathetic.

This is beyond true. All one has to do is pull up hundreds of YouTube videos these days to see it, too.

That family WalMart thing. I've never seen a dumber pair of doofuses wading into a crowd that outnumbered them three to one, with not a damn thought other than getting in the face of the one guy to get him to submit.

That family could have kicked both of their asses and shot them both to death as many times as they left their weapons unguarded, and were pushed down to the ground and knocked over like a couple of weeble-wobbles.

The outcome of them shooting the guy was pretty much guaranteed by their exceedingly poor tactics in close quarters, and inability to pause long enough to think about what they were doing. They *created* the situation where they were left no option but to fire on him. Both by massively escalating the scenario within 2-3 seconds of arrival on the scene, and deciding that wrestling in a crowd was a good idea.

Sadly, they'll walk free. Nobody will hold them accountable for the bad tactics because the end result of them WAS a scenario where they had to fire. Totally avoidable scenario, however.

The most telling part of that one was once they did finally force the scenario to a fire on the idiot one, they didn't even have proper control of where they were firing and they hit another family member in the ass as he was getting out of their way. So much for weapon control and knowing your target and backstop.

As far as the pay thing goes: Didn't know that cops were paid well anywhere. I guess there's a different problem there to deal with, but around here they aren't paid well and they aren't trained well by many departments. A few train well.

I always chuckle at the make believe on TV where all these cops have partners and chitter chatter all day with them in the patrol cars. We haven't had dual officer patrol cars around here for well over a decade, and their backup in certain jurisdictions and the State Patrol guys out in the boonies, is often a long long ways away. SP dispatch regularly mentions that closest backup is 30 minutes travel time away when an officer gets a hit on a warrant in a traffic stop.

As an intern dispatcher up in a mountain county many moons ago, we regularly had to reach out to the single SP car that was single officer either for him to backup one of the Sheriffs Deputies or vice versa, there were often only two patrol cars and a detective on shift on graveyard and it took almost two hours to cross the county on winding mountain roads. I often wondered when that would next get someone killed be it the Served or the Officer. It wasn't a question of whether it would. Only when.

I doubt much has changed up there from almost 20 years ago either. Other than they finally got E911 data right about the time I left the internship.

 

[1600vw]

1600vw, you don't know a thing about me or my training and background. Don't pretend you do. 'Putting yourself in conditions or places that you might get hurt' is vastly different than letting yourself get stabbed with anything.

Lets just leave it at 'you don't know me, I don't know you, and we'll (thankfully) never meet' and end all the (one sided) name calling.

You are correct. I only know what you post. Thankfully we will never meet. I see the type of person you are. Did I ruffle your feathers. Lucky I am at home and not standing on the side of the road.

Tony.

 

[timwinters]

And the fun continues this week in Round Rock.

In related news:

Recording police will be illegal if Texas HB 2918 passes.

Filed by Dallas State Representative Jason Villalba (R), the bill prohibits anyone in public within 25 feet of police to record them. The buffer is even greater at 100 feet, for anyone recording video who is also carrying a gun. Only accredited news organizations would be allowed to record without the buffer zone.

 

[EppyGA]

And the fun continues this week in Round Rock.

In related news:

That should die a quick death under the 1st

 

[Fredbob711]

And the fun continues this week in Round Rock.

In related news:

The DEA recently said they were investigating an incident where an agent took someone's cell phone while they were recording the agent and smashed it. I'm sure that'll go far.

 

[JCranford]

Thatll never pass.

As a side note, I'm surprised no one has linked the video from Arizona from last month of the cop running over the guy with the rifle. You guys are slacking off on your cop abuse. What gives??

Don't get me wrong. Running him over was justifiable force, but it makes really bad video.

 

[Bill]

You guys are slacking off on your cop abuse. What gives??

And nothing on the guy in Baltimore. Deadly spinal injury while riding in the police van? Cops say because it was because he didn't wear his seatbelt? Yeah right! City of Baltimore will be writing yet another big check on this one.

 

[timwinters]

I didn't phrase it very well but my Round Rock reference wasn't regarding the proposed legislation. It was a cop who body slammed a drunk woman on an asphalt parking lot. hard enough that her head bounced about 3 to 6 inches.

More disturbing was the Round Rock chief of police saying it was justified. I'd post the raw video if I could find it but all I can find is TV news reports from Houston and San Antonio.

 

[Fredbob711]

And nothing on the guy in Baltimore. Deadly spinal injury while riding in the police van? Cops say because it was because he didn't wear his seatbelt? Yeah right! City of Baltimore will be writing yet another big check on this one.

And the Baltimore PD saying no force was used during his arrest? And the police union comparing the protesters to a lynch mob?

At the least these police departments really need to work on their PR.

 

[Mike Smith]

White cops/Latino man

Here they go again.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QdbYJlZ6uMc

 

[narchee]

Well don't feel too bad for him. $650,000 to endure a couple of minutes of beating that he will fully recover from is not a bad.

Why do some people get all the luck? Why can't I get beaten up for that kind of money?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/04/21/francis-jared-pusok-settlement_n_7111906.html

 

[poadeleted21]

Re: White cops/Latino man

Here they go again.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QdbYJlZ6uMc

Yup. The latest rare occurrence.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CQEGMVzGLWo

 

[denverpilot]

Giving credit where due, a Sheriff's deputy here got a dispatch BOLO for a vehicle that had someone who's been kidnapped.

Best info I've seen is that the deputy found the car at a parking lot of a trail head, rolled up to see the kidnapper in the back seat with a gun to the head of the kidnapped driver, and managed to shoot the bad guy in the head with a single shot through the rear window.

Pretty impressive shot, through glass, not hitting the front seat kidnappee, I must say.

Kidnapping and finding the car with the people still in it, isn't exactly a common thing, nor or oval anything other than dumb luck in this case.

But kudos to the Deputy who made sure we don't have to pay to feed and house the moron for 40+ years. A shot like that could have gone way way wrong.

 

[timwinters]

Re: White cops/Latino man

Here they go again.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QdbYJlZ6uMc

No one is saying that there are no good cops. There are and they risk their lives to do good things every day. I know quite a few of them around here.

But, if/when these good cops help to hide the bad ones behind the Blue Wall of Silence, like so many of them do, they prove that they are no better.

The mistrust of law enforcement is no longer limited to minorities because the majority of cops no longer have the "protect and serve" attitude. They have militarized, both physically and mentally, and many cops now view the general public as their enemy. It's "we against them."

Which was the chicken and which was the egg? I'm not positive, but the homeland security money that's been freely flowing to local law enforcement since 9/11 has certainly exacerbated the issue/attitude and you reap what you sew.

 

[James331]

Is it any surprise corrupted "law makers" are trying to pass laws preventing folks from filming police, kinda like how bad kitchens don't like people filming their filth.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/...crawford-counties-police-officers-enforcement

 

[Florida Cracker]

The truest evidence of corruption is when any public employee demands that citizens refrain from examining their professional behavior.

The SECOND any LEO, elected official, or government employee goes down that road YOU ALREADY KNOW where to begin the investigation.

 

[denverpilot]

The truest evidence of corruption is when any public employee demands that citizens refrain from examining their professional behavior.

The SECOND any LEO, elected official, or government employee goes down that road YOU ALREADY KNOW where to begin the investigation.

Technically the removal of monetary damages for liability and negligence is usually first. You only need the cameras off to avoid the Press and "embarrassment". Most aren't embarrassed anyway and know their personal fortunes are safe no matter what they do.

 

[Bob Noel]

Giving credit where due, a Sheriff's deputy here got a dispatch BOLO for a vehicle that had someone who's been kidnapped.

Best info I've seen is that the deputy found the car at a parking lot of a trail head, rolled up to see the kidnapper in the back seat with a gun to the head of the kidnapped driver, and managed to shoot the bad guy in the head with a single shot through the rear window.

Pretty impressive shot, through glass, not hitting the front seat kidnappee, I must say.

Kidnapping and finding the car with the people still in it, isn't exactly a common thing, nor or oval anything other than dumb luck in this case.

But kudos to the Deputy who made sure we don't have to pay to feed and house the moron for 40+ years. A shot like that could have gone way way wrong.

I wish we could find some way to encourage the media to highlight the successes as well instead of only sensationalizing the gross misconduct.

Seriously. I'm at a loss as to how to achieve that desired outcome.

 

[FastEddieB]

I wish we could find some way to encourage the media to highlight the successes as well instead of only sensationalizing the gross misconduct.

Seriously. I'm at a loss as to how to achieve that desired outcome.

Agree 100%.

There are thousands or even tens of thousands of police encounters each and every day that are handled professionally and without incident.

Much like uneventful aircraft flights.

But of course both rarely get reported.

"If it bleeds, it leads!"

 

[1600vw]

So we need to pat those who do their job correctly on the back and tell them good job. I believe that is what a paycheck is for.
Does not matter if you flip hamburgers or arrest the locals. If you do your job you get a pay check. But in Law enforcement, you do your job and screw up they send you home with pay.

 

[FastEddieB]

But in Law enforcement, you do your job and screw up they send you home with pay.

When I worked in Dade County, FL and Janet Reno was the State Attorney, the m.o. was "screw up they indict you".

 

[1600vw]

When I worked in Dade County, FL and Janet Reno was the State Attorney, the m.o. was "screw up they indict you".

First they must investigate and as they do this " investigation" they send you home with pay. If they do not do this in Reno it would be the only place in America I have heard that does not do this.

Private sector if you screw up at work you go home without pay as they investigate.

 

[1600vw]

I must say I ran across some very nice police officers in Reno. But this was in the 80's. Seems a lot of police where kinder back then.