Moral check?

[saracelica]

Getting new siding on our house. Guy comes over gives estimate. Me and husband chatting with him. Estimator guy says "you related to (my husband father)" yes we say. I then said do we get a discount?
Figured it be never hurts to ask.

Get the official estimate and they took $500 off. I was like woohoo! Husband says I can't believe you asked for a discount?! Fine give me the $500 then.

Was I wrong to ask for a discount?

 

[weilke]

No. The roofer still made a healthy profit.

 

[luvflyin]

Getting new siding on our house. Guy comes over gives estimate. Me and husband chatting with him. Estimator guy says "you related to (my husband father)" yes we say. I then said do we get a discount?
Figured it be never hurts to ask.

Get the official estimate and they took $500 off. I was like woohoo! Husband says I can't believe you asked for a discount?! Fine give me the $500 then.

Was I wrong to ask for a discount?

No. But ya might wanna see what your father in law thinks about it. He might want some of that $500.

 

[saracelica]

He passed away a few years ago.

 

[timwinters]

You're asking about ethics when dealing with a contractor? As a contractor that makes me LOL.

There are so few ethical contractors out there these days, especially residential. Especially the residential ones who do renovation instead of ground up. They have the reputation for being the biggest crooks of all.

Trust me, his mark-up just went from 200% to 195%

 

[flight2000]

No, I think you did just fine. Just means that it was over priced to begin with and the estimator has room to negotiate. You just happen to find the right combination. I say good job and you earned that extra $500....

Any negotiating is considered good form (in some countries it's epected) since we've been doing it in some form or fashion for thousands of years. Hell, even Warren Buffet negotiates for the best price.

Cheers,
Brian

 

[Fiveslide]

My wife does this, too. I don't think it's wrong, morally speaking. It's embarrassing to me sometimes.

I usually joke the other way, example...

Yeah, we know him, don't hold that against us!
Yeah, we know him, we can't afford to pay what he paid!

 

[RyanB]

I don’t think it’s wrong, but it is a bit tacky imo.

YMMV

 

[alfadog]

Neither wrong nor tacky. You don't need to be related to anyone. You could have just said to him when he finished the estimate that you need it for a $1000 less and he probably would have done that too. It's called competition (closing, salesmanship, free enterprise, capitalism, whatever), you do what you need to do to get the signature on the contract.

Edit: round here, you routinely tell the estimator that he "needs to sharpen his pencil".

 

[RyanB]

Neither wrong nor tacky. You don't need to be related to anyone. You could have just said to him when he finished the estimate that you need it for a $1000 less and he probably done that too. It's called competition ( closing, salesmanship, free enterprise, capitalism, whatever), you do what you need to do to get the signature on the contract.

I tend to agree, however, it came across as though a discount was expected because they were related to the individual.

My BIL owns a self-storage facility here. If I needed to rent a unit, it would be awfully tacky for me to say ‘hey, since we’re related, can I get a discount?’ Would he do it? I’m sure he would, but it would be a little tacky to ask for it.

Again just my 2c.

 

[alfadog]

I tend to agree, however, it came across as though a discount was expected because they were related to the individual.

My BIL owns a self-storage facility here. If I needed to rent a unit, it would be awfully tacky for me to say ‘hey, since we’re related, can I get a discount?’ Would he do it? I’m sure he would, but it would be a little tacky to ask for it.

Again just my 2c.

Different situation, IMO. People rent storage units very commonly based on location and availability. If it's a seller's market and they could sell that storage space to someone tomorrow for the full retail, then perhaps I can see your point. Contracting construction services is much different. Usually, you can get five different contractors to look at something and any of them would be happy to take the job and their quotes will vary widely. Negotiation is part of the process.

 

[timwinters]

Any negotiating is considered good form (in some countries it's expected) since we've been doing it in some form or fashion for thousands of years.

Not directly related, but at least tangentially so.

In commercial contracting, "bid shopping" is considered very POOR form, and is a practice only engaged in only by unethical General Contractors and either unethical or uneducated owners. Basically, it asking folks to price match.

As either a GC (dealing with subs) or an Owner (dealing with a GC), if I invite you to bid a job, then I am obligated to use you if you are the low bidder. I am not to call my favorite contractor, Billy Bob, and say "hey, Joe Blow was 15% lower than you, if you match his price, you can do the job." That is done in retail every day but is considered very unethical in contracting.

Now, if I want to spend the extra 15% to use Billy Bob, then that's my prerogative, but I don't bid shop or beat people down after bid day.

Conversely, I am under no obligation to use, or even consider, any bid that is received unsolicited.

Ethics are a rare commodity in all businesses these days though, not just contracting.

 

[luvflyin]

He passed away a few years ago.

Well ya should at least buy some flowers, a thank you card and take em out to the grave

 

[Ravioli]

Ravioli's True Story Time:

At restaurants it was a common thing for someone in my group, when presented with the check, to say "Does that include my discount?"
Usually we got a blank stare, or laughing "of course sir."

One evening I asked it and the server said "Who are you?" I told him (confidently) "I'm Rob Oli____." He said "I'm sorry I didn't recognize you" and walked away.

Couple minutes later the manager came over. "Is there a problem with the check, Sir?" We almost fell out of our chairs laughing while I explained it was just a silly thing we do.

Check came with a 5% discount. Server got a 25% tip. Next time we went there the server greeted me by name and seated us in his section. The discount, though, was a one'time item.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

Not directly related, but at least tangentially so.

In commercial contracting, "bid shopping" is considered very POOR form, and is a practice only engaged in only by unethical General Contractors and either unethical or uneducated owners. Basically, it asking folks to price match.

As either a GC (dealing with subs) or an Owner (dealing with a GC), if I invite you to bid a job, then I am obligated to use you if you are the low bidder. I am not to call my favorite contractor, Billy Bob, and say "hey, Joe Blow was 15% lower than you, if you match his price, you can do the job." That is done in retail every day but is considered very unethical in contracting.

Now, if I want to spend the extra 15% to use Billy Bob, then that's my prerogative, but I don't bid shop or beat people down after bid day.

Conversely, I am under no obligation to use, or even consider, any bid that is received unsolicited.

Ethics are a rare commodity in all businesses these days though, not just contracting.

I wish the same ethics applied to lab equipment.

 

[alfadog]

...
In commercial contracting, "bid shopping" is considered very POOR form, and is a practice only engaged in only by unethical General Contractors and either unethical or uneducated owners. Basically, it asking folks to price match.
...

If you are a contractor dealing with a pool of subs that you use routinely, then yes I see your point. These are folks you trust or you wouldn't be using them routinely. Very commonly a contractor will use one sub for all his work, for instance a glazing sub or a plumbing sub. Bringing someone else in to give you an estimate only so that you can lowball your favorite sub is very unethical. It wastes the time of the person you brought in and it's not fair to your favorite sub.

That said, if you single source some bit of subcontracting and you think your sub's price is a bit high, there's nothing wrong with asking him to sharpen his pencil. I had it done routinely to me when I was subbing and it didn't bother me. I could do it or not do it.

However, for a homeowner cold-calling contractors to bid some bit of work on their house, I think all bets are off and negotiation is on. There's nothing unethical or uninformed about it.

 

[skier]

As either a GC (dealing with subs) or an Owner (dealing with a GC), if I invite you to bid a job, then I am obligated to use you if you are the low bidder.

I work in a different industry, but I've been screwed and heard of people in the building industry that have been screwed by taking the lowest bidder. Even to the point of the final product costing more, taking longer, and/or not meeting the requirements because the lowest bidder forgot something, wasn't capable of doing something, etc. Even if they do meet the requirements sometimes the product from the cheapest guy can just look like crap. Sometimes its ok to use the cheapest guys in town. Other times quality matters.

And yes, you can be screwed by the more expensive people as well. But usually there's a reason they are more expensive and frequently it's just that they do a better job.

 

[timwinters]

If you are a contractor dealing with a pool of subs that you use routinely, then yes I see your point.

I've built in over 30 states so I've dealt with a LOT of subs and generals unknown to me. How do you find good ones? Here's Tim's tip, and it's valid whether you're a homeowner or big corporation.

Looking for subs? Call the suppliers and ask them who the best subs are...not the crap suppliers like Home Depot and Lowe's. No! Rather the real electrical, plumbing, HVAC and metal stud/drywall supply houses...and the concrete plants. This works well because these guys won't recommend a sub who doesn't pay their bills. And if a sub pays their bills in a timely manner then they're probably running a pretty tight ship. If they are recommended by two or three supply houses, they're definitely golden!

And when I was on the owner's side, looking for generals, I would talk to the subs recommended by the supply houses and get their recommendation for good generals in the area. Good Subs typically won't recommend GCs who "play the games."

One never bats 1000 but I'd bat 900 or better using this strategy when I was a traveling contractor.

One neat thing about contracting/contractors is people are brutally honest with opinions. Ask a question, you WILL get an honest answer. Politics? WTF is that?

I struggled with this when I first transitioned into corporate America where stroking egos was more important than giving honest answers. I only lasted about 10 years befor I got TF back out of that scene.

 

[FormerHangie]

As long as you are being honest, there's no reason you can't negotiate on the front end, before work has started. If you misrepresented the job, say by claiming it was for a charity when it was not, that would be immoral and possibly fraudulent.

Now, once work has started, your opportunity to negotiate is over. If the contractor does the agreed upon job, you owe him or her what you agreed to pay. Trying to cut the price at that point is immoral and dishonest.

Promising something and then refusing to honor it is usually done to employees by employers, for some reason that seems to be acceptable, whereas stiffing your contractor often winds you up in court.

 

[GRG55]

I don’t think it’s wrong, but it is a bit tacky imo...

I tend to agree, however, it came across as though a discount was expected because they were related to the individual.

My BIL owns a self-storage facility here. If I needed to rent a unit, it would be awfully tacky for me to say ‘hey, since we’re related, can I get a discount?’ Would he do it? I’m sure he would, but it would be a little tacky to ask for it.

Again just my 2c.

This has to be about the only place in the world people think like this. And it makes people uncomfortable to bargain as a result.

Everywhere else I've been it's expected one will bargain. Many places its an integral part of the entertainment of shopping.
Compared to here business happens at a leisurely pace in most places. When I was living and working overseas instead of sitting around a hotel lobby waiting for a meeting I would spend my time in the local markets bargaining for interesting stuff.

My wife almost never pays full retail for anything. She always asks for their "best friendship price" - a phrase she learned from one of her Chinese classmates in university.

 

[RyanB]

This has to be about the only place in the world people think like you do. And it makes people uncomfortable to bargain as a result.

Everywhere else I've been it's expected one will bargain. Many places its an integral part of the entertainment of shopping.
Compared to here business happens at a leisurely pace in most places. When I was living and working overseas instead of sitting around a hotel lobby waiting for a meeting I would spend my time in the local markets bargaining for interesting stuff.

My wife almost never pays full retail for anything. She always asks for their "best friendship price" - a phrase she learned from one of her Chinese classmates in university.

We’re all entitled to our own opinion and I’m not saying that it’s wrong to try and bargain. In certain situations it’s necessary.

But, it’s one thing to try and bargain with someone, it’s another to act like you’re entitled to something because you’re a friend of theirs.

 

[luvflyin]

Not directly related, but at least tangentially so.

In commercial contracting, "bid shopping" is considered very POOR form, and is a practice only engaged in only by unethical General Contractors and either unethical or uneducated owners. Basically, it asking folks to price match.

As either a GC (dealing with subs) or an Owner (dealing with a GC), if I invite you to bid a job, then I am obligated to use you if you are the low bidder. I am not to call my favorite contractor, Billy Bob, and say "hey, Joe Blow was 15% lower than you, if you match his price, you can do the job." That is done in retail every day but is considered very unethical in contracting.

Now, if I want to spend the extra 15% to use Billy Bob, then that's my prerogative, but I don't bid shop or beat people down after bid day.

Conversely, I am under no obligation to use, or even consider, any bid that is received unsolicited.

Ethics are a rare commodity in all businesses these days though, not just contracting.

Not just businesses

 

[asicer]

Everywhere else I've been it's expected one will bargain. Many places its an integral part of the entertainment of shopping.

And when Amazon takes over the world, perhaps something that will be relegated to the history books.

@Ryanb might be the forward thinker here. In the future, bargaining might be replaced by algorithms.

 

[GRG55]

We’re all entitled to our own opinion and I’m not saying that it’s wrong to try and bargain...

It's a cultural thing. You are most correct, it should be only in an appropriate context; not all situations are.

Not a contractor story, but the picture below is one of my prizes from my time living overseas. I found it in a junk metal shop in the depths of the Khan el-Khalili souk in Old Cairo early one Saturday, when I had to stay over in the city during an extended business trip.

The proprietor had piles of metal in a dingy, low-ceiling space sorted by type - for example, old copper plumbing fittings and copper cookwear piled together on the floor. The item in the picture was buried under hinges, door hardware and other brass and tin objects. It was completely black when I found it, and took only a moment to realize the calligraphy was hand hammered, and it wasn't tin.

And that led to a pleasant five hours of banter and bargaining. Much tea being summoned to drink. Exchanging information about family and life in our respective home countries. Alternating bouts of feigned offense and threats to disengage. And finally a successful transaction - one in which the seller thinks he got the upper hand and put one over on the foreigner, and the buyer knows he got what he wanted for a pittance (We started at $100.00 and settled at $20.00). The fact I was paying in US Dollars aided the leverage, as did the ability to name prices in Arabic, having learned the numbers.

The best part was when we exited to the alley to leave. My young Arab engineer accompanying me on the business trip turned and said "You could have got it for less, if you hadn't been in such a hurry". And that attitude pretty well sums up why nothing in the Arab world happens very quickly. All in all one of my enduring memories of nearly a decade living and working overseas- the pot is a reminder of a most enjoyable human interaction that afternoon.

And when Amazon takes over the world, perhaps something that will be relegated to the history books.

@Ryanb might be the forward thinker here. In the future, bargaining might be replaced by algorithms.

LOL. Just like video conferencing was supposed to replace air travel and face-to-face business meetings.

 

[Matthew]

I usually ask, “What kind of deal can you give me?”, instead of, “What’s it going to cost?”

Don’t know how effective that is, but it usually gets a more thoughtful answer. It’s gotten me a break every now and then.

 

[Matthew]

A guy I work with is getting work done on his house this week. He wanted his concrete slab patio torn out and replaced. He called 3-4 contractors before he could get a quote. The guy started early this week and might still be at it. The delay wasn’t all weather related. Over the last 70-80 years, someone poured a slab. Then someone else poured another slab on top. Then someone poured another slab on top of both. The contractor said, “Next time I’m being more specific in my quotes about removing a single 4” slab...not three.” But he stuck with the quote he submitted.

 

[PeterNSteinmetz]

The contractor said, “Next time I’m being more specific in my quotes about removing a single 4” slab...not three.” But he stuck with the quote he submitted.

That’s quite honorable of the contractor. I think I would ask him if he is actually underwater on the deal and at least offer to cover costs if needed. But that would depend on how the contractor came across.

 

[alfadog]

A guy I work with is getting work done on his house this week. He wanted his concrete slab patio torn out and replaced. He called 3-4 contractors before he could get a quote. The guy started early this week and might still be at it. The delay wasn’t all weather related. Over the last 70-80 years, someone poured a slab. Then someone else poured another slab on top. Then someone poured another slab on top of both. The contractor said, “Next time I’m being more specific in my quotes about removing a single 4” slab...not three.” But he stuck with the quote he submitted.

If this were my house and I considered that there was one 4" slab to be removed when getting quotes but then found there were three, I would certainly sweeten the pot for the contractor. Fair is fair.

 

[Shepherd]

During my deployment to the middle east in 1970, I learned to haggle. It's not something I had really done before and it was totally foreign to me.
You didn't buy anything over there without haggling. If you didn't haggle they got mad at you.
It's not just about price. You have to praise or denigrate the materials, the workmanship the design, ancestry, the guys ancestry, the ancestry of the people who made it.
I was in Diyarbakir, Turkey and had some time to kill so I was haggling over the price of a hand woven silk rug. We went on for 4+ hours over a difference of about 75 cents, and we were having a great time. A Chai vender came by and I offered to buy us some refreshments. So we sat in the shade and had our tea and little cakes made with dates and figs, and talked about our families, the chai vendor
came back and picked up the empties, and we started in again. Suddenly the shop owner burst out laughing and told me he had never in his life had so much fun haggling with an American, mostly we just don't dicker for things. I told him I was in awe of the nuances of the deal and I was just flying by the seat of my pants.
In the end. He came down to my price and sold me the rug, and to show my appreciation I bought a second rug for his price.
I still have both.
I bought a lot of other things from him before I came home, and it was always a treat.
American contractors have no clue.

 

[Matthew]

If this were my house and I considered that there was one 4" slab to be removed when getting quotes but then found there were three, I would certainly sweeten the pot for the contractor. Fair is fair.

I think that’s fair, too.

 

[Htaylor]

Y

There are so few ethical contractors out there these days, especially residential.

As someone who spent nearly 30 years in the Redi-mix concrete industry, I can attest to this.

 

[DaleB]

But, it’s one thing to try and bargain with someone, it’s another to act like you’re entitled to something because you’re a friend of theirs.

Bargaining isn’t about pretending to be a friend, or being “entitled”. It’s more about becoming a friend to a certain degree. If we make a good deal, I’ll like you, and I’ll recommend you to my friends. We know a little more about each other and have some mutual respect.

I’ve seen it done right and done wrong, starting with the year I spent in Korea. My wife’s better at it than I am most of the time, but I do better with the big things... cars, houses, that sort of thing.

 

[saracelica]

Thanks for the fun haggling stories. I look forward to sharing how it ended up. I doubt I'll ever see the estimate guy again but a good review, if warranted would probably be good. They already have an excellent rating.

 

[overdrive148]

It's a cultural thing. You are most correct, it should be only in an appropriate context; not all situations are.

Not a contractor story, but the picture below is one of my prizes from my time living overseas. I found it in a junk metal shop in the depths of the Khan el-Khalili souk in Old Cairo early one Saturday, when I had to stay over in the city during an extended business trip.

The proprietor had piles of metal in a dingy, low-ceiling space sorted by type - for example, old copper plumbing fittings and copper cookwear piled together on the floor. The item in the picture was buried under hinges, door hardware and other brass and tin objects. It was completely black when I found it, and took only a moment to realize the calligraphy was hand hammered, and it wasn't tin.

And that led to a pleasant five hours of banter and bargaining. Much tea being summoned to drink. Exchanging information about family and life in our respective home countries. Alternating bouts of feigned offense and threats to disengage. And finally a successful transaction - one in which the seller thinks he got the upper hand and put one over on the foreigner, and the buyer knows he got what he wanted for a pittance (We started at $100.00 and settled at $20.00). The fact I was paying in US Dollars aided the leverage, as did the ability to name prices in Arabic, having learned the numbers.

The best part was when we exited to the alley to leave. My young Arab engineer accompanying me on the business trip turned and said "You could have got it for less, if you hadn't been in such a hurry". And that attitude pretty well sums up why nothing in the Arab world happens very quickly. All in all one of my enduring memories of nearly a decade living and working overseas- the pot is a reminder of a most enjoyable human interaction that afternoon.

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[/MEDIA]



LOL. Just like video conferencing was supposed to replace air travel and face-to-face business meetings.

Thanks for the story. Reminds me kind of this song:

 

[alfadog]

YT video above is cool. I've never seen that. Though I did grow up the first eight or nine years of my life in New York City so maybe I seen a stoop sale but I don't think so

 

[Cap'n Jack]

YT video above is cool. I've never seen that. Though I did grow up the first eight or nine years of my life in New York City so maybe I seen a stoop sale but I don't think so

Most of them don't have garages, so they can't have a garage sale.