Mooney panel upgrades

[Bill]

Plane: M20J 201

Present panel: Still has the OEM six pack, including the King 55A HSI and the vac King AI, these drive a KFC-200 A/P. Navcom 1 is a 430W, still functions 100%. Nav 2 is a KNS 80 that hasn't worked properly in years, it's basically just a brick taking up space in the panel. Com 2 is a King 197 that mostly works.

Problem: Problem one, the HSI is getting flaky, does not slave to the proper heading, requiring us to unslave it and use the push buttons to keep it lined up with the whiskey compass. And, it's getting flakier by the day, it wouldn't surprise me if it feces the bed totally, and we don't want to pour any more money into repairing antiques. Problem two, mentioned above, the KNS 80 is a brick.

Potential solutions: For the HSI issue/six pack, we want to go either two G5's, or one slim portrait oriented G3x, as long as they talk to the still functioning perfectly KFC-200 and we don't have to install a backup AI. We plan to keep the balance of the OEM six pack.

For the navcoms, we don't know which is better, trade the 430W on a GTN 650 for navcom 1 and buy a new/used GNC 255 as navcom 2, or outright buy the 650 and slide the 430W down to use as navcom 2. Either way we want to have navcom 2 to be G/S capable. That #2 be a GPS navcom is not at all important.

Anyway, going to call some shops and get some opinions/quotes, but if anyone has done something similar, I'm all ears!

 

[asicer]

Potential solutions: For the HSI issue/six pack, we want to go either two G5's, or one slim portrait oriented G3x, as long as they talk to the still functioning perfectly KFC-200 and we don't have to install a backup AI. We plan to keep the balance of the OEM six pack.

Going the G5 route requires you to keep the vacuum AI and pump. Might want to think a bit more about a pair of GI275's which would allow you to pull the vacuum system. The problem with that is that it puts you much closer to the installed cost of a G3x except I'm not sure if the G3x can supply attitude to the KFC200 which means you'd need to keep the vacuum system.

Are you married to the idea of a 2nd NAV? What about an IFD440 to upgrade the 430?

 

[Bill]

Going the G5 route requires you to keep the vacuum AI and pump. Might want to think a bit more about a pair of GI275's which would allow you to pull the vacuum system. The problem with that is that it puts you much closer to the installed cost of a G3x except I'm not sure if the G3x can supply attitude to the KFC200 which means you'd need to keep the vacuum system.

Are you married to the idea of a 2nd NAV? What about an IFD440 to upgrade the 430?

Sounds like I need to call a good shop to run thru these options and see what works. As for nav 2, yeah, we'd like to have nav 2 capability for IFR work.

 

[asicer]

Sounds like I need to call a good shop to run thru these options and see what works. As for nav 2, yeah, we'd like to have nav 2 capability for IFR work.

I think the cheapest route would be to replace the HSI with a G5 and the KNS80 with a VAL NAV2000. That solves both problems except that you'd be solely relying on the 430 for DME info. It seems like you're thinking about backing up the GPS with another GPS but I'm not a big fan of that. In my opinion, you're more likely to lose both GPS simultaneously due to signal jamming than losing only 1 GPS.

 

[Llk]

So lets scratch a few things out.

The KNs80 goes out. As does the ky197. You’ll get a few hundred on eBay for that comm. You’re now down a navcomm. Your idea of the 430w as navcomm2 is perfect- it also drives your autopilot. Between your HSI and autopilot, that’s at least 30-40 pins on a harness that you’ll pay for with little justifiable reason (“it works 100%)

My favorite navcomm is the older SL 30 based on nav space and features. But put that thought on hold. The GNC is newer but again...let’s hold that. Nav com GPS is good.

You didn’t tell us what your indicator was on the KNS80.

The 430w is already wired. No need to mess with it unless you want to pay or donate money to an avionics shop, and like ir want pretty glass.

Again, you need a nav and a comm. a GPS is a plus.

The HSI being flakey is its own issue. If you get a different nav/comm or nav/com/gps, it will have an indicator as well, no?

Slide in a nav comm of your choice in place of the KNS and KY, for the economy win, and figure out what you want to do about a nav comm or nav comm gps. Your 430w brick is worth about $5k or so in the open market, and you throw your wiring out the window. An IFD440 will bring you touch if you want it, and selling your 430w will help with that bite - again, avionics shop cost is the key in my mind-and I do my own harnesses!

Compatibility in the KFC200 is something to research also.

Rip out the 80, KY, replace with your radio of its own choice, and maintain the HSI until a genuinely adequate replacement comes about. You will end up tanking out the KG102, the remote compass, slaving switch and KI525 and that’s about 400 pins and other things to replace - $$$. The bill will surprise you with the little by littles.

650/md200-306 or GI106, or even a KI206 if it’s already there. If you go digital, that’s great. Ooooor, you can take the glass plunge.

Work on a fancier display later- the G3X, Dynon wars are only heating up, and your pocket book may regret the speed at which technology moves.

I went down this path a few years back with an GMX200, gtx330, 430/480 decision, GDL69A, stormscope on my KFC150 in my K model mooney, and look at where we are today. Garmin sucks when it comes to pricing, and they looooove to end of life things far too quickly.

You won’t be a first mover on the 650 and your 430w still has plenty of life left. kCS55a’s are plummeting in price and are easily sourced on eBay, be it the gyro or the indicator.

If you want to spend money on glass, spend money on glass- but understand it’s a luxury rather than necessity once you’ve gotten a nav/comm with an indicator in place...including the digital flavors.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Bill]

So lets scratch a few things out.

The KNs80 goes out. As does the ky197. You’ll get a few hundred on eBay for that comm. You’re now down a navcomm. Your idea of the 430w as navcomm2 is perfect- it also drives your autopilot. Between your HSI and autopilot, that’s at least 30-40 pins on a harness that you’ll pay for with little justifiable reason (“it works 100%)

My favorite navcomm is the older SL 30 based on nav space and features. But put that thought on hold. The GNC is newer but again...let’s hold that. Nav com GPS is good.

You didn’t tell us what your indicator was on the KNS80.

The 430w is already wired. No need to mess with it unless you want to pay or donate money to an avionics shop, and like ir want pretty glass.

Again, you need a nav and a comm. a GPS is a plus.

The HSI being flakey is its own issue. If you get a different nav/comm or nav/com/gps, it will have an indicator as well, no?

Slide in a nav comm of your choice in place of the KNS and KY, for the economy win, and figure out what you want to do about a nav comm or nav comm gps. Your 430w brick is worth about $5k or so in the open market, and you throw your wiring out the window. An IFD440 will bring you touch if you want it, and selling your 430w will help with that bite - again, avionics shop cost is the key in my mind-and I do my own harnesses!

Compatibility in the KFC200 is something to research also.

Rip out the 80, KY, replace with your radio of its own choice, and maintain the HSI until a genuinely adequate replacement comes about. You will end up tanking out the KG102, the remote compass, slaving switch and KI525 and that’s about 400 pins and other things to replace - $$$. The bill will surprise you with the little by littles.

650/md200-306 or GI106, or even a KI206 if it’s already there. If you go digital, that’s great. Ooooor, you can take the glass plunge.

Work on a fancier display later- the G3X, Dynon wars are only heating up, and your pocket book may regret the speed at which technology moves.

I went down this path a few years back with an GMX200, gtx330, 430/480 decision, GDL69A, stormscope on my KFC150 in my K model mooney, and look at where we are today. Garmin sucks when it comes to pricing, and they looooove to end of life things far too quickly.

You won’t be a first mover on the 650 and your 430w still has plenty of life left. kCS55a’s are plummeting in price and are easily sourced on eBay, be it the gyro or the indicator.

If you want to spend money on glass, spend money on glass- but understand it’s a luxury rather than necessity once you’ve gotten a nav/comm with an indicator in place...including the digital flavors.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Ok, to try and answer your questions!

The KNS80 is presently wired to a GI106B, to the right of the VSI

The 430W is wired to the KG102

Pretty glass: my one partner wants a pretty touch screen panel, my other partner flies in the northeast a lot, so a GPS that can program airways like the 650 does is important to him. Me? I think the 430W works just fine.

Yes, moving or removing the 430 will be painful, and removing the entire KCS 55A system will be painful. Decisions decisions...

Panel pics:

 

[MooneyDriver78]

I have an STec so dual G5s allowed me to lose the vacuum, I’d also changed to a panel mounted compass a better view. Using a panel mounted 660 as a poor mans MFD.

Tom

 

[asicer]

Pretty glass: my one partner wants a pretty touch screen panel

GI-275 to replace the KCS55

my other partner flies in the northeast a lot, so a GPS that can program airways like the 650 does is important to him. Me? I think the 430W works just fine.

IFD440 slide-in.

And the aforementioned VAL NAV2000 to replace the KNS80.

 

[RyanB]

I have an STec so dual G5s allowed me to lose the vacuum, I’d also changed to a panel mounted compass a better view. Using a panel mounted 660 as a poor mans MFD.

Tom

Nice panel!

 

[Bill]

GI-275 to replace the KCS55

IFD440 slide-in.

And the aforementioned VAL NAV2000 to replace the KNS80.

Does the IFD440 do airways?

 

[eman1200]

dual g3x's in the panel as well as a g3x in the back of each headrest so your backseat passengers have something to play with

 

[Bill]

dual g3x's in the panel as well as a g3x in the back of each headrest so your backseat passengers have something to play with

Nice, but would cut too deep into the hookers and blow fund...

 

[asicer]

Does the IFD440 do airways?

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Dual GI 275s - That means you don't have to worry about the HSI, and the AI will drive your autopilot.
If you really need the second nav... Just buy a GTN 650Xi and make that your new #1. The 430W would make a great #2 radio. Be sure you add the FlightStream 510 as well, it's a bargain as far as avionics go.
Yank: KNS 80, KY 197, vacuum system. FWIW, removing a single KI 256 and replacing it with a GI 275, swapping the Insight 602 for the Insight G3, and removing our vacuum system gained us 9 extra pounds of useful load. Was hoping for more, but this was a pretty small upgrade in the grand scheme of things.

I'm very happy with the GI 275, my only regret so far is not getting two of them!

 

[asicer]

The KNS80 is presently wired to a GI106B,

BTW, Sarasota is running an upgrade promotion where you can trade in your GI106B for a GI275.

https://sarasotaavionics.com/garmin-gi275-upgrade-promotion

 

[Bill]

BTW, Sarasota is running an upgrade promotion where you can trade in your GI106B for a GI275.

https://sarasotaavionics.com/garmin-gi275-upgrade-promotion

I'd think that would be overkill. The two 275's for the AI and HSI, yes. But our GI106B is only used by NAV 2, don't really see where having an electonic needle trumps a mechanical needle in that instance.

Oh, and I do have a quote request in with Sarasota, Gulf Coast, and a local shop. Any other known good shops to get quotes? (east coast)

 

[EdFred]

POA: Where spending someone else's money has no upper bound.

 

[SCCutler]

The IFD 440 is the call to swap in, in place of the 430W. You save about $5k in install cost right there. Does airways, has bluetooth and WiFi for flight plan transfer. You get a Bluetooth remote keyboard t mount on your yoke to control it, if you want. Also, can run the IFD100 app on your iPad (check it out), almost like another navigator on the cheap.

It was me, I'd replace the KCS55A and go for two G5s, losing air instruments entirely. But, I see you have a King A/P, so you'd need an attitude source, so that suggests the two GI275s, which cost more, but do a whole lot more. No one I know who has gotten them regrets it. Or, 2 G5s and pop for the GFC500 autopilot "while you're in there."

See - wasn't that fun?

But seriously - the IFD440 is a seriously good box. Love mine. The money you save by going 440 will pay the cost delta to go for 275s over the G5s.

 

[jsstevens]

POA: Where spending someone else's money has no upper bound.

To be fair, where does spending someone else’s money have an upper bound?

 

[Bill]

The IFD 440 is the call to swap in, in place of the 430W. You save about $5k in install cost right there. Does airways, has bluetooth and WiFi for flight plan transfer. You get a Bluetooth remote keyboard t mount on your yoke to control it, if you want. Also, can run the IFD100 app on your iPad (check it out), almost like another navigator on the cheap.

It was me, I'd replace the KCS55A and go for two G5s, losing air instruments entirely. But, I see you have a King A/P, so you'd need an attitude source, so that suggests the two GI275s, which cost more, but do a whole lot more. No one I know who has gotten them regrets it. Or, 2 G5s and pop for the GFC500 autopilot "while you're in there."

See - wasn't that fun?

But seriously - the IFD440 is a seriously good box. Love mine. The money you save by going 440 will pay the cost delta to go for 275s over the G5s.

Spike, is the 440 WAAS?

 

[asicer]

I'd think that would be overkill. The two 275's for the AI and HSI, yes. But our GI106B is only used by NAV 2, don't really see where having an electonic needle trumps a mechanical needle in that instance.

I was thinking that since you're ditching the KNS80 that you wouldn't need the GI106B any more. You could use that as trade-in credit for the GI275 HSI.

Of course, that brings up the question of what you will use for the eventual NAV#2 replacement and how to indicate course deviation. Possibilities include the bearing pointer on the GI275, the built-in CDI on a SL30 or GNC255 or 430W, the built-in CDI of a VAL INS429, etc. The GNS480 had a HSI page, too bad the 430W doesn't.

 

[Bill]

I was thinking that since you're ditching the KNS80 that you wouldn't need the GI106B any more. You could use that as trade-in credit for the GI275 HSI.

Of course, that brings up the question of what you will use for the eventual NAV#2 replacement and how to indicate course deviation. Possibilities include the bearing pointer on the GI275, the built-in CDI on a SL30 or GNC255 or 430W, the built-in CDI of a VAL INS429, etc. The GNS480 had a HSI page, too bad the 430W doesn't.

One of my partners is a 787 FO, and loves the idea of a backup nav with ILS capability, and I agree. So long term we're thinking GNC255 as the navcom #2 upgrade. Still getting quotes on all of this...

 

[SCCutler]

Spike, is the 440 WAAS?

Oh gosh, yes.

IMHO, best feature set available. Install in 3 minutes because it uses the same tray as the 430W.

 

[Bill]

Oh gosh, yes.

IMHO, best feature set available. Install in 3 minutes because it uses the same tray as the 430W.

It looks great to me, I sent a link to my partners for comment lol.

 

[SCCutler]

Martin Pauly has a great video:

Also, search "Avidyne" in YouTube, and you can see a great series of instructional/demonstration videos.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I'd think that would be overkill. The two 275's for the AI and HSI, yes. But our GI106B is only used by NAV 2, don't really see where having an electonic needle trumps a mechanical needle in that instance.

Ah, but that's the great thing about the GI 275... It does a LOT.

I didn't really think about it this way until another PoAer replaced a CDI with a GI 275, but there are a lot of things a G5 can do when it's not an AI or HSI.

If it's the AI, that's all it does, for obvious reasons.

If it's the HSI, it can function as an HSI, a standby AI, or have the "HSI Map" view. IMO, the HSI Map is good for a "stuff that will kill you in the next 5 minutes" view: Terrain, traffic, obstacles and wires at a 10nm zoom level (so you can see the traffic and obstactles easily). The constant "battle" I have on the GTN is that I'm constantly switching it between the zoomed-out map view to see weather and the zoomed-in traffic view to see traffic. Having both (via the zoomed-out GPS and a zoomed-in HSI) would be great.

Now, if you have another GI 275 which is not an AI or HSI, it can be any of the following, and you can flip between them at your will:

A plain old CDI when necessary - But in the modern world this is only useful for very small portions of most flights, which is why the GI 275 is very useful as a replacement.

Another standby ADI that uses the ADAHRS of one of the other two, so even if one of them dies entirely you still have both AI & HSI available.

An HSI, for the same reason (all of the GI 275s you have in the system can get data from the same magnetometer simultaneously).

The HSI Map described above.

An MFD Data page.


So there's a lot that it can do instead of just sitting there taking up space most of the time which is what a #2 nav CDI tends to do in the age of GPS.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

The IFD 440 is the call to swap in, in place of the 430W. You save about $5k in install cost right there. Does airways, has bluetooth and WiFi for flight plan transfer. You get a Bluetooth remote keyboard t mount on your yoke to control it, if you want. Also, can run the IFD100 app on your iPad (check it out), almost like another navigator on the cheap.

It was me, I'd replace the KCS55A and go for two G5s, losing air instruments entirely. But, I see you have a King A/P, so you'd need an attitude source, so that suggests the two GI275s, which cost more, but do a whole lot more. No one I know who has gotten them regrets it. Or, 2 G5s and pop for the GFC500 autopilot "while you're in there."

See - wasn't that fun?

But seriously - the IFD440 is a seriously good box. Love mine. The money you save by going 440 will pay the cost delta to go for 275s over the G5s.

The one issue with swapping in a 440 is that it theoretically precludes you from getting the GFC 500 autopilot later. Thanks to quirks in paperwork, if you put in the GFC 500 first, it's technically legal to swap out the 430 for a 440 later, but not in the opposite order.

Also, even though it may be legal, it's not smart - I've heard that the GFC and the IFD don't always play well together, for example the GFC envelope protection is automatically disabled by the Garmin GPS units when landing, whereas if you have an IFD the envelope protection will still be enabled at landing and the GFC will try to push your nose down when you're in the flare (!!!) unless you manually disable it, which either is going to defeat the purpose of envelope protection for one of the most dangerous portions of the flight, or result in a lot of button pushing at a very bad time.

Other than that, you're absolutely right.

Bill, our theory was to keep ourselves in a position where we could replace things as needed and make progress toward where we really want to be eventually. Since our HSI is electric (KI-525, which I think is what you have as well), we only needed the AI to kick the vacuum system to the curb. Vacuum gauge was dead and we just didn't want to spend ANY money on a vac system any more, plus the AI was dying anyway.

But now, if the HSI quits we could install another GI 275. If the autopilot quits, we can install a GFC 500 and tie it to the GI 275. Neither of those are things we want to spend any money repairing, especially the autopilot.

Having the one GI 275 is nice... Enough so that I kind of regret not getting the second one installed right away.

 

[Bill]

The one issue with swapping in a 440 is that it theoretically precludes you from getting the GFC 500 autopilot later. Thanks to quirks in paperwork, if you put in the GFC 500 first, it's technically legal to swap out the 430 for a 440 later, but not in the opposite order.

Thanks, Kent! This is important news as the logical upgrade path is to go with the GFC 500 if/when the KFC-200 dies.

 

[EdFred]

To be fair, where does spending someone else’s money have an upper bound?

I've been on forums where the income is significantly less than the members here, and suggestions are much more reasonable, because most people on those boards think about what they are able to spend and suggest based on that.

 

[Bill]

I've been on forums where the income is significantly less than the members here, and suggestions are much more reasonable, because most people on those boards think about what they are able to spend and suggest based on that.

And, luckily, I get to split the nut with three other people. Still, we will likely do this in stages and solve the immediate problem 1st, which is the dying HSI.

 

[Ed Haywood]

And, luckily, I get to split the nut with three other people. Still, we will likely do this in stages and solve the immediate problem 1st, which is the dying HSI.

If your immediate problem is a dying HSI, then dual GI 275's are a no brainer for your first step. Solves your HSI problem, significantly increases reliability by getting rid of your vaccum system, gives you redundant AI, and maximizes compatibility with current and future Garmin devices.

https://sarasotaavionics.com/avionics/gi-275-package

 

[Layton's]

Bill, I just put the 7” G3X in my Mooney. Kept the ki-256 to drive the autopilot and got rid of the HSI, etc. great product. Lee

 

[Getonit]

Bill, I just put the 7” G3X in my Mooney. Kept the ki-256 to drive the autopilot and got rid of the HSI, etc. great product. Lee

Does the G3x not drive the king AP? I was under some impression that it did?

 

[Ryan Klems]

Does the G3x not drive the king AP? I was under some impression that it did?

Depends on what you mean by “drive”. It cannot provide the attitude source, but like the G5’s it can provide heading and course error. So as long as you have something providing the attitude source it can “drive” it.

 

[asicer]

Depends on what you mean by “drive”. It cannot provide the attitude source, but like the G5’s it can provide heading and course error. So as long as you have something providing the attitude source it can “drive” it.

As I recall, the G3x uses the same GAD29B autopilot adapter as the G5, therefore has the same autopilot interfacing capabilities.

 

[RyanB]

Ah, but that's the great thing about the GI 275... It does a LOT.

I didn't really think about it this way until another PoAer replaced a CDI with a GI 275, but there are a lot of things a G5 can do when it's not an AI or HSI.

If it's the AI, that's all it does, for obvious reasons.

If it's the HSI, it can function as an HSI, a standby AI, or have the "HSI Map" view. IMO, the HSI Map is good for a "stuff that will kill you in the next 5 minutes" view: Terrain, traffic, obstacles and wires at a 10nm zoom level (so you can see the traffic and obstactles easily). The constant "battle" I have on the GTN is that I'm constantly switching it between the zoomed-out map view to see weather and the zoomed-in traffic view to see traffic. Having both (via the zoomed-out GPS and a zoomed-in HSI) would be great.

Now, if you have another GI 275 which is not an AI or HSI, it can be any of the following, and you can flip between them at your will:

A plain old CDI when necessary - But in the modern world this is only useful for very small portions of most flights, which is why the GI 275 is very useful as a replacement.

Another standby ADI that uses the ADAHRS of one of the other two, so even if one of them dies entirely you still have both AI & HSI available.

An HSI, for the same reason (all of the GI 275s you have in the system can get data from the same magnetometer simultaneously).

The HSI Map described above.

An MFD Data page.
View attachment 89669

So there's a lot that it can do instead of just sitting there taking up space most of the time which is what a #2 nav CDI tends to do in the age of GPS.

I really like those GI275’s and it might make sense in some cases, but for the cost of an AI and HSI and/or EIS, you could have a full blown G3X touch (or close to). Without a doubt, it makes sense to ditch the vacuum system, especially for more frequent IFR flying.

 

[Ryan Klems]

As I recall, the G3x uses the same GAD29B autopilot adapter as the G5, therefore has the same autopilot interfacing capabilities.

Yes, that's essentially what I was trying to get across.

 

[eman1200]

one of these!

 

[Bill]

I really like those GI275’s and it might make sense in some cases, but for the cost of an AI and HSI and/or EIS, you could have a full blown G3X touch (or close to). Without a doubt, it makes sense to ditch the vacuum system, especially for more frequent IFR flying.

To go with a G3x now, we would also have to ditch the functioning KFC-200 autopilot and replace with a GFC500 as the G3x cannot provide attitude information to the King A/P. Also, what most don't realize is the G3x is just a display, you need all of the electronic boxes behind it to feed the information. Going down the G3x rabbit hole turns a $15k project into a $30k project.

 

[RyanB]

To go with a G3x now, we would also have to ditch the functioning KFC-200 autopilot and replace with a GFC500 as the G3x cannot provide attitude information to the King A/P. Also, what most don't realize is the G3x is just a display, you need all of the electronic boxes behind it to feed the information. Going down the G3x rabbit hole turns a $15k project into a $30k project.

Ah I didn’t realize that.