Mooney or Cardinal?

Rock Berube said:
Im pondering over a Mooney M20F or a Cardinal retractable, most of my flying is cross country including Canada to Southern Mexico and down to Panama. No not a drug runner. Recently sold my Cardinal 177B
Click to expand...

Unless you are considering a J model, I would stick with the 177.
 
Clip4 said:
Unless you are considering a J model, I would stick with the 177.
Click to expand...

Why? An F can be made into a J with basically two mods (1 not expensive, 1 a bit expensive). It's the same body. An F is still faster and better handling than a 177.
 
N1120A said:
Why? An F can be made into a J with basically two mods (1 not expensive, 1 a bit expensive). It's the same body. An F is still faster and better handling than a 177.
Click to expand...

I guess you could modify an F, but you still have an F and on resale you will not recoup the cost of the mods. Mods notwithstanding, the 177 is a more comfortable airplane for XC. So comfort vs speed is the trade off.
 
Clip4 said:
I guess you could modify an F, but you still have an F and on resale you will not recoup the cost of the mods. Mods notwithstanding, the 177 is a more comfortable airplane for XC. So comfort vs speed is the trade off.
Click to expand...

Airplanes sometimes need new windshields, so switching to the J windshield isn't a big deal. A bunch of Fs have them anyway. You're almost halfway there at that point.

Also, the 177 is comfortable for whom? A Mooney is very comfortable for the pilot.
 
N1120A said:
Airplanes sometimes need new windshields, so switching to the J windshield isn't a big deal. A bunch of Fs have them anyway. You're almost halfway there at that point.

Also, the 177 is comfortable for whom? A Mooney is very comfortable for the pilot.
Click to expand...

Not if you have arthritis in your knees.
 
Clip4 said:
Not if you have arthritis in your knees.
Click to expand...

Why, it’s only more difficult on exit and entry, once you’re in, it’s very comfortable unless you don’t like the sports car seating position?


Tom
 
N1120A said:
Airplanes sometimes need new windshields, so switching to the J windshield isn't a big deal. A bunch of Fs have them anyway. You're almost halfway there at that point.

Also, the 177 is comfortable for whom? A Mooney is very comfortable for the pilot.
Click to expand...

"Very comfortable" is subjective. I'm sure if one is the right height and proportions a Mooney may be very comfortable. Al Mooney was a bit taller than me, and there's no doubt the cabin proportions were influenced by him. But it must have been all legs, and no torso.

I have two friends with an M20E and I do not like my headset banging incessantly on the curved cabin top, unless I keep my head tilted, and I do not like the up close panel. That's in addition to the "sports car" seating, something that might have been appealing when I was 25, but not now.

There's no arguing Mooneys deliver outstanding speed and utility for the fuel consumed, and they are a tremendously strong airframe (I believe the one and only in-flight breakup was some nitwit taking on a thunderstorm?). I have also always liked the way they look on the ramp, especially the longer body from the 'F' on - they just look fast even standing still. But, there's a reason Cirrus sells far more new Continental-550 powered airplanes than Mooney. It's not just the parachute.

Personally I think the new Mooneys might appeal to the same people that enjoy stuffing themselves into a Lambo to go fast.
 
Last edited:
It's the parachute and the marketing.

The E is a smaller body than the F.
 
N1120A said:
It's the parachute and the marketing.

The E is a smaller body than the F.
Click to expand...

I think it's also the difference between a very personal airplane centered around the pilot and a quite different execution designed to appeal to the passengers (the spouse and family).

Do the long bodies from the 'F' onward offer any more room in the front two seats, or is the 10-inch stretch for the benefit of making the rear seats usable?
 
GRG55 said:
I think it's also the difference between a very peronal airplane centered around the pilot and a quite different execution designed to appeal to the passengers (the spouse and family).

Do the long bodies from the 'F' onward offer any more room in the front two seats, or is the 10-inch stretch for the benefit of making the rear seats usable?
Click to expand...

You know that Mooneys are wider than a Bonanza, right?
 
N1120A said:
You know that Mooneys are wider than a Bonanza, right?
Click to expand...

I used to have a desire to own an A36. Until I sat in one. The front seats are on top of the spar and there's not enough headroom for me. I'm only 6'4", pretty evenly split between legs and torso. These planes are from an era when the average size person was shorter than we are now.

The actual dimensions between airplanes are only marginally useful indications. Just as with top speed statistics. They aren't a substitute for getting in and seeing how they really fit. It's either going to fit or it's not. It's either going to be comfortable, or it isn't. A 3 to 5 hour leg in an airplane is quite different from a short test flight. Caveat emptor.
 
N1120A said:
Also, the 177 is comfortable for whom? A Mooney is very comfortable for the pilot.
Click to expand...

Not in my experience. I bought an Arrow over a 20F over ergonomics. I can't even utter the comparison between either and a 177RG with a straight face, let alone ask my pax what they prefer. The only reason I didn't buy a Cardinal is they were and still are cult priced, so I got an Arrow for a (relative) song and attained the same performance (wrt Cardinal...better power loading actually) by eating the ergonomics hit. I can't touch an RG for what I paid for the Arrow. The family is content in the back of it, so it works. I would personally rate Mid and long body mooneys as more comfortable for the back seaters than the front seaters. Again, I'd have no problem owning a mooney if the front seats were like the back seats ergonomically.


GRG55 said:
Do the long bodies from the 'F' onward offer any more room in the front two seats, or is the 10-inch stretch for the benefit of making the rear seats usable?
Click to expand...

The latter. Just like the pre-72/73 PA-28 variants, the cabin stretch was done entirely to increase rear cabin leg room for adult use. The ergonomics of even the long body Mooneys did not improve the front seat issue. Mooney doesn't have that significant bang for the buck when it comes to the cross sectional area. Arrows with proper flush riveting (accomplished by wing smoothing and tank bolt fairings) have been made to touch stock F mooney speeds on the same power setting (Arrows, Cardinals, et al, have more efficient induction systems than 20F and earlier), and that's with a fatter wing. Which is another way of saying Mooney would not have lost an appreciable amount of speed by making the cabin height comparable to the PA-28, since the majority of the speed advantage of the Mooney comes from the wing, not the cabin. Thence allow front seaters a more comfortable (higher) sitting height and less adjacent chest proximity from the panel. But that's water under the bridge.
 
MooneyDriver78 said:
Why, it’s only more difficult on exit and entry, once you’re in, it’s very comfortable unless you don’t like the sports car seating position?


Tom
Click to expand...

Because on long XC your legs are too straight causing knee discomfort. Long XC is defined as >3.5 hours.
 
You’ve had a Cardinal so you know how comfortable they are. My Cardinal RG averages 165 mph TAS and about 9.5 GPH.

I have a very good IA that believes in owner assisted annuals. He works closely with me so I can do as much of the grunt work on my maintenance as possible under his supervision. He’s a pilot and my one rule is that anything that he’d want done to keep my plane safe for his family to fly in has to be done.

That level of maintenance has kept my plane relatively cheap to own and maintain at the highest level. Everything gets fixed before it becomes a major issue and so far I’ve flown a little over 600 hours with no surprises.

My wife and I take at least one trip a year that’s over 1500 miles from Houston. We’ve been to the Bahamas and Catalina Island in the same year and flew 8 hours in one day getting home on each trip. We hadn’t planned to make the entire trip in one day going either direction but were still doing well enough when we’d reached our planned stop for the day that we decided to finish the trip a day early. If the RG wasn’t so comfortable that wouldn’t have been possible.

We did sit in several models of Mooney’s before getting our Cardinal but just didn’t feel comfortable in any of them. I’m 6’ 4” and average around 250 so I’m larger than many but for long trips the Cardinal RG works well for me.

If you haven’t taken a trip in a Mooney you might want to try to set one up before you finalize your choice. Speed is wonderful but long trips require comfort.

Gary
 
I’ve done a 12hr day in the Mooney. It’s key to have decent upholstery and cushions. You can stretch out and if your copilot has broad shoulders, just stagger the seats. The seating position is low, like sitting on a stool, some just don’t like it.


Tom
 
I do 8 hour days in a Cardinal every single week when it isn’t in the shop, and trust me, any airplane can get uncomfortable at some point. They are good planes, you just have to decide what your priorities are with the various strengths and weaknesses.
 
To answer the OP: I'd give a slight edge to the Mooney, provided it's comfortable for you. Lots of people talk about that, though, and most of them have never flown Mooneys. IMO, it's one of the most persistent myths in aviation. Try one on for size.

If you have any mobility issues or you find that the Mooney doesn't fit you well, the Cardinals are well-known for being one of the best aircraft in terms of ease of entry and exit.

The other thing to consider is that Cessna gear systems are kind of complex and prone to expensive maintenance. When our club's R182 developed a cracked pivot, Cessna wanted $19,000 and a 3-4 month lead time to get the part. It seems that ever since Textron bought Beechcraft, they realized they could get away with the same legendary expensive parts prices over at Cessna.

AKBill said:
I could never understand why a manufacture would install one door on an aircraft. To the OP buy what fits you mission.
Click to expand...
N1120A said:
Engineering at the time. Mooney now puts 2 doors on.
Click to expand...

Bingo. And it takes more structure around the door to have the same strength, which means more empty weight. Mooney has switched to a composite covering on the cabin to make up for the extra structural weight of the second door.

Ravioli said:
I was a shared owner of a 177RG for over 5 years. The gear was never where the maintenance monies went. And since I was the treasurer, I would know.
Click to expand...

Gear is one of those things that costs nothing until it costs a fortune, though. IMO it's pretty easy on any retract to spend nothing on maintenance on the gear aside from swinging it at annual... Until it costs you a bunch. I've been the treasurer for those, too...

GRG55 said:
But, there's a reason Cirrus sells far more new Continental-550 powered airplanes than Mooney. It's not just the parachute.
Click to expand...

It's not just the airplane, either. Cirrus sells far more new SR22s than any other model being sold right now because they have a good enough airplane and a team that's really good at sales and marketing. Sales does not indicate quality or value.

hindsight2020 said:
Not in my experience. I bought an Arrow over a 20F over ergonomics. I can't even utter the comparison between either and a 177RG with a straight face, let alone ask my pax what they prefer. The only reason I didn't buy a Cardinal is they were and still are cult priced, so I got an Arrow for a (relative) song and attained the same performance (wrt Cardinal...better power loading actually) by eating the ergonomics hit. I can't touch an RG for what I paid for the Arrow. The family is content in the back of it, so it works. I would personally rate Mid and long body mooneys as more comfortable for the back seaters than the front seaters. Again, I'd have no problem owning a mooney if the front seats were like the back seats ergonomically.
Click to expand...

Wow. You are literally the first person I've ever heard say anything positive about the back seat of a Mooney.

And I'd rather sit in a Mooney for three hours than an Arrow for five. Just sayin'. ;)

Arrows with proper flush riveting (accomplished by wing smoothing and tank bolt fairings) have been made to touch stock F mooney speeds on the same power setting (Arrows, Cardinals, et al, have more efficient induction systems than 20F and earlier), and that's with a fatter wing. Which is another way of saying Mooney would not have lost an appreciable amount of speed by making the cabin height comparable to the PA-28, since the majority of the speed advantage of the Mooney comes from the wing, not the cabin.
Click to expand...

That must have been a severely mis-rigged Mooney they were racing then. The best Arrow I've ever seen was 10 knots slower than the worst mid-body Mooney I've ever seen.
 
Clip4 said:
Mods notwithstanding, the 177 is a more comfortable airplane for XC.
Click to expand...
It depends on the body type and perhaps specific options, such as seats, and maintenance history. I am way more comfortable in M20E than in C177B. Cardinal is just cramped for me. I imagine it may feel better for pilots who are shorter but wider than I am at 6'5" tall and 36" inseam.
 
zaitcev said:
Of course sales indicate value. I would be flying Cirrus if I had the money. I'm only stuck in Mooney because I'm poor and I want the knots.
Click to expand...

Meh... If I was buying a brand new airplane today, I'd probably still go for the Ovation over the SR22.

You can't possibly tell me that Cirrus sells so many airplanes solely because their airplane is that much better than everyone else's. They do make a good airplane, no doubt, but it's how they take that airplane and market it that gives them their success. I wish some other manufacturers - Okay, ALL of them - would market the way Cirrus does.
 
GRG55 said:
Not enough information. Are you flying solo? Two of you only? Eight kids? 200 lbs of bags? Want comfort over speed, or the other way around?
Click to expand...

Usually 2 of us flying on occasion 4 (on short flights), try to keep bags under 100 lbs total. Looking for speed economy and comfort, I'm fit 6 ft 185 lbs, do a lot of cross country from Canada down to Mexico and been as far down as Panama. Every time you land or takeoff in Mexico or central America it takes forever waiting for fuel truck, paying landing and parking fees and the paperwork you need to file a flight plan for every flight which is on written on paper. So looking to be able to get further and faster. Im leaning towards a Mooney and looking at a M20F which has Mods, 201 windshield, flap gap seals, cowl closure, light weight starter etc. Only real issue Im aware of is the fuel tanks are starting to leak so will need to be resealed soon which the price reflects this. This is common on Mooneys. What ever plane I get it will be getting a pre-purchase inspection completed.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Meh... If I was buying a brand new airplane today, I'd probably still go for the Ovation over the SR22.
Click to expand...
Well, I head that Mark Brandemuehl had legs and hands amputated after the engine grenaded in his brand new Ultra and he put it down on a street in Phoenix past June.
 
Last edited:
N1120A said:
Why? An F can be made into a J with basically two mods (1 not expensive, 1 a bit expensive). It's the same body. An F is still faster and better handling than a 177.
Click to expand...

Yes, and then you have the flush riveted leading edge wing of the F to complement the other aerodynamic advantages of the J. I know this because I have one. The guy that built it expects that it is faster than a J and he has done nothing but modify and maintain Mooneys for some forty odd years.
 
Comfort vs speed is not a trade off unless you’re one that doesn’t get the correct exercise. The correct exercise would be your forearms, pushing yourself away from the dinner table when you should. I am 6’1”, 200 pounds and am perfectly comfortable in my Mooney and have to worry about getting the seat back too far.

If you use a walker or a wheel chair, yes the 177 will be easier to enter and exit.
Clip4 said:
I guess you could modify an F, but you still have an F and on resale you will not recoup the cost of the mods. Mods notwithstanding, the 177 is a more comfortable airplane for XC. So comfort vs speed is the trade off.
Click to expand...
 
Flying cheesehead hit it on the head.

I hear Mooney naysayers all the time and when you ask them if they have ever been in one, unless they are a large person, they will almost always answer no.
 
zaitcev said:
Well, I head that Mark Brandemuehl had legs and hands amputated after the engine grenaded in his brand new Ultra and he put it down on a street in Phoenix past June.
Click to expand...

So did Mooney build the engine or did some other manufacturer build it. Does Cirrus build their engines or are they built by someone else?

I have no idea which engines are in each plane, but it wouldn’t surprise me if they were the same one.

Sorry, but you can’t lay this one off on the plane builder.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Wow. You are literally the first person I've ever heard say anything positive about the back seat of a Mooney.
Click to expand...

Now your gonna know two! I love riding in the back of our J, very roomy, and the huge back windows give unparalleled views.
 
The money that will buy a retractable Cardinal will buy a crapload of Mooney. The real question is how often the OP takes passengers. if the answer is "not often", a somewhat modded E will outrun a 201 on the same gas. The OP could get a damn fine F for what those Cardinals are going for. Go faster on less gas, and schlep around that back seat. That's what Mooneys do.

Those wide of beam don't fit in Mooneys, that's true. Other than that, my humble little Mooney Ranger has fit folks from diminutive (me) to gigantic. On long trips I just push the seat back. Don't need the rudders in cruise and I've got lots of room. I admit, starting out I had trouble finding a CFI I trusted in the Mooney. I've yet to have the slightest trouble finding maintenance. They're airplanes, they use standard airplane materials and components. Its not like they're put together with glue or anything.
 
MBDiagMan said:
So did Mooney build the engine or did some other manufacturer build it. Does Cirrus build their engines or are they built by someone else?
Click to expand...
Cirrus did not build the emergency recovery system either. They were just smart enough to install it, so you don't have to find an empty street with no power lines.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top