Mooney M20J

Aztec Driver

Aztec Driver

Line Up and Wait
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Mar 7, 2005
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Elizabethtown, PA
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Bryon
So my partner and I are looking into purchasing a 1990 M20J. It is in excellent condition, and has a lot of nice panel avionics. It has also had some substantial damage that seems to have been repaired properly. So now it is off to a prebuy inspection to check everything. Anything special to look for?
Any good, bad, and ugly on this particular kind of bird?
It isn't an Aztec, but it can go almost as fast on 1/3 the fuel. But it is still hard to get another airplane to replace one that is lost too you. No ice protection, no large loads.... Oh well, I guess I can take solace in the fact that noone wants to fly with me anymore anyway.:D
 
SB 208B
Steering Horn
Tank leaks at station 48 (very very hard to fix- there are four leaves of metal there), since the tank sealant is near "TBO" if there is any blue anywhere reject it.....it's a $8,000 job.
 
Aztec Driver said:
So my partner and I are looking into purchasing a 1990 M20J. It is in excellent condition, and has a lot of nice panel avionics. It has also had some substantial damage that seems to have been repaired properly. So now it is off to a prebuy inspection to check everything. Anything special to look for?
Any good, bad, and ugly on this particular kind of bird?
It isn't an Aztec, but it can go almost as fast on 1/3 the fuel. But it is still hard to get another airplane to replace one that is lost too you. No ice protection, no large loads.... Oh well, I guess I can take solace in the fact that noone wants to fly with me anymore anyway.:D
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Byron,

Have you seen this?

http://www.mooneypilots.com/mapalog/M20J_Inspection.htm

Bruce is right about the fuel tanks... we had an M20J in our club that had a fuel tank leak that was so bad that there was a very strong fuel odor when you first opened the door. I didn't fly that plane... much...
 
Check nose gear truss for dents, check battery compartment for any corrosion.

I strongly strongly suggest getting a mooney-savvy AMT to do a pre-buy, and join the mooney-mailing list at www.aviating.com/mooney/index.html

If you get a good one, you'll be extremely happy, they are fabulous airplanes for one or two people and kids.
 
Bryon,

Good luck... M20J is, IMHO, one of the best complex singles ever made. It sure squeezes a lot of knots out of a gallon of fuel! Plus, tons and tons and tons of legroom for tall guys like me.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Bryon,

Good luck... M20J is, IMHO, one of the best complex singles ever made. It sure squeezes a lot of knots out of a gallon of fuel! Plus, tons and tons and tons of legroom for tall guys like me.
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In the front, maybe. I wasn't real comfortable in the back when he was flying.
 
bbchien said:
... since the tank sealant is near "TBO" if there is any blue anywhere reject it.....it's a $8,000 job.
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Some serious illogic in the above statement. The fuel sealant is very near (if not past) the useful life. If the sealant is showing physical signs of this fact, reject it. Corollary: If the sealant isn't showing signs of this physical fact, buy it. The only salient point is that the sealant is near toast. If it hasn't failed by now (showing signs) it probably will tomorrow. Either way, there is some cost to fix, plan accordilngly ($8k is on the high side of what you can find, BTW). For the above statement to be logical you would only purchase an aircraft with a relatively fresh re-seal, not merely favor tanks that aren't showing signs of the imminent failure. I might disagree, but atleast that's logical.
 
Sealant if it goes, is more like 6 grand, of course depending on who does it, however, given the other pluses that the MK20J offers and as long as it is considered in the purchase, I feel it is really not a consideration, there is no other single engine airplane that can do what it does, specially when you consider the initial cost and operating expense, its only shortcoming i feel is its soft and shortfield characteristics.
 
Ed's right, you have to factor the cost. But when Charlie Hinojosa did my M20J Turbobullet with Monroy tanks, the couldn't get station 48 to stop. It always seeped. He finally TOOK THE WING APART and got it stopped.

~$13,000.
 
bbchien said:
Ed's right, you have to factor the cost. But when Charlie Hinojosa did my M20J Turbobullet with Monroy tanks, the couldn't get station 48 to stop. It always seeped. He finally TOOK THE WING APART and got it stopped.

~$13,000.
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Charlie was the BEST. He did my tanks for ~8. I didn't have that leak issue.
 
A seeping wet wing is fixable either with bladders or a couple of different resealing methods, although at a cost. If this cost is factored into the price, it's no reason to reject an otherwise good Mooney. Because of the repaired "substantial damage", the price should already be relatively low. An M20J is a super XC airplane. Let us know if you're going ahead with the purchase.
 
There was substantial damage, and a good bit was to outboard wing sections. I noticed in the logs considerable repair, and reseal of the tanks, although I am having my shop look at it next week for a good thorough inspection. It has a new paint job, new Penn Yan engine, new prop,(although a McCauley), a nice interior, and lots of nice goodies in the panel. It is a reasonable price, provided the repairs were done to specs. I am concerned that the paint job could hide potential problems. It flies very well, but it is difficult to slow down, something I will have to get used to. All the controls feel tight and responsive. It is much more stable in the bumps and turns than I thought it would be. It was a "constructive total loss" according to the insurance company from an accident in 2003 when the pilot lost control in a crosswind landing. The owners purchased it from either the insurance company or the previous owner.
 
Aztec Driver said:
There was substantial damage, and a good bit was to outboard wing sections. I noticed in the logs considerable repair, and reseal of the tanks, although I am having my shop look at it next week for a good thorough inspection. It has a new paint job, new Penn Yan engine, new prop,(although a McCauley), a nice interior, and lots of nice goodies in the panel. It is a reasonable price, provided the repairs were done to specs. I am concerned that the paint job could hide potential problems. It flies very well, but it is difficult to slow down, something I will have to get used to. All the controls feel tight and responsive. It is much more stable in the bumps and turns than I thought it would be. It was a "constructive total loss" according to the insurance company from an accident in 2003 when the pilot lost control in a crosswind landing. The owners purchased it from either the insurance company or the previous owner.
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Bryon,

There are two Mooney shops nearby...you might want to consider having one of them look at the repair work.

Descent and speed control just takes some planning.

Len
 
2 things I have always liked about Mooneys, their slightly stiff, heavy controls, and they way they ride turbulance. All serves to make them fantastic IFR platforms. If you learn how to use rudder with them, they make for great trim and rudder flying.
 
Capt Kirk said:
Bryon,

There are two Mooney shops nearby...you might want to consider having one of them look at the repair work.

Descent and speed control just takes some planning.

Len
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OK, I'll bite, who and where are they?

Thanks
 
Wittenberg flying service (eastern Ohio) and Flying Tigers at Marietta, PA....although Jay Stout is NOT his father, whose attention to detail MADE that shop what it is today.
 
bbchien said:
Wittenberg flying service (eastern Ohio) and Flying Tigers at Marietta, PA....although Jay Stout is NOT his father, whose attention to detail MADE that shop what it is today.
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Eastern Ohio is a little farther than I want to go. Flying Tigers is where I am based. Jay is not his father, is right. Jay is not a really nice person to even talk to most of the time. The entire outfit seems to push away more business than they bring in. They do not seem to want to lure business in and keep it. I think they could do a great job there, if they could stop turning people off with their attitude.

I am planning to take it to Dutchland Aviation in Smoketown. Ed, is that where you take yours?

I found out that the plane is out of annual, so I will need to make this an annual for the inspection.
 
Bryon,

You've got one of the best Mooney centers in the east in your backyard at LNS. Henry Weber is on the field there. However, Ed has recommended Dutchland for years and I've heard good things about them also.

The M20J or modded M20F are the only planes I would consider moving to from the Tiger.
 
Not Ed but I know for a fact that is where Ed gets his work done on RR. He swears by Dennis, as do most of us who fly in these parts. He once said to me "if Dennis won't work on it I won't buy it".

Jim G
 
grattonja said:
Not Ed but I know for a fact that is where Ed gets his work done on RR. He swears by Dennis, as do most of us who fly in these parts. He once said to me "if Dennis won't work on it I won't buy it".

Jim G
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Sounds good enough for me. I think they did well on the Aztec, but I was never the one to initiate the service, Matt was.
 
bbchien said:
...Flying Tigers at Marietta, PA....although Jay Stout is NOT his father, whose attention to detail MADE that shop what it is today.
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Don't go there. Ever. IIRC, simply search the NTSB site for crashes using "maintenance" as a search term and Mt. Joy/Marietta airport as the location. If "maintenance" doesn't do the trick, just search for fatals near that airport. PM if you want a Mooney maintenance experience that purely because fate was not the hunter did not quite make the NTSB site.
 
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Anthony said:
...You've got one of the best Mooney centers in the east in your backyard at LNS. Henry Weber is on the field there.
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Great reputation, bring $$$$.
 
So here is a great question. What can one realistically expect, performance-wise from a 1990 M20 J? I assume it to be in the 155 knots true range on around 10-10.5 gph? I was just looking at a web site that said 170 knots. That seems awfully high for a 200 hp plane.

Ed, just in case you are curious, the plane is at Dutchland now, waiting to be checked over. Man I sort of wish I wasn't going away for the weekend, so I could spend some time with it. But the granddaughter wins out this time.
 
Aztec Driver said:
So here is a great question. What can one realistically expect, performance-wise from a 1990 M20 J? I assume it to be in the 155 knots true range on around 10-10.5 gph? I was just looking at a web site that said 170 knots. That seems awfully high for a 200 hp plane.quote]
That's an easy one as I have a ton of data to answer it. Flying 5 to 10 dF lean of peak I cruise at 150 kts TAS. Fuel flow depends on altitude. At 7,000 its 9.3gph. At 12,000 it's about 7.6gph TAS is about 146 kts in this case). Tanks hold an honest 64 gals. So as to range, do the math. It'll fly a long way.
If you want to be a ROP guy (70 dF ROP), you can cruise @ 7,000' at 160 kts TAS at 11 gph. I don't have other data for more altitudes, cause I don't normally cruise ROP.
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Aztec Driver said:
OK, I'll bite, who and where are they?

Thanks
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Bryon,

Henry Weber over at LNS was one and Flying Tigers was the other. I had not previously heard about the attitude and current level of ability at Flying Tigers and will keep that in mind.

Side note...the POA site has been blocked at work and with time at home at a premium I won't be logging on as much. To top it off, I can't remember my user name and password as I depended on the cookie installed on the work machine to log on. So, I had to create a new log on.

BTW...I use Tom at Flight Dynamics at Brandywine to take care of my M20C...he also services a few other M20's including at least 1 J model. He is a good wrench.

Len
 
Aztec Driver said:
So here is a great question. What can one realistically expect, performance-wise from a 1990 M20 J? I assume it to be in the 155 knots true range on around 10-10.5 gph?
Click to expand...

The Mooney M20J POH is usually dead on the money within maybe 1-2 kts for a well rigged aircfraft. IME, the block to block fuel burn will be ~10 gph if you fly 8-10k', best economy lean per the POH, and the aircraft will true 155 kts assuming it is in rig--a bad assumption on most ~16 year old Mooney aircraft, but easily corrected.
 
Well, I have a preliminary report from Dutchland Aviation. It appears that there is a whole lot more to these repairs from the accident than meets the eye. The repair job was not done very well, as many of the rivets are not flat or square. The fuel tank does have a leak. The sheet metal joints are not straight and true. The rear rudder bushings are worn badly. The right gear door doesn't fit tight when closed. The real problems are the left main gear is tilted slightly inward. Add that to an outward bow above the wing in the fuselage and it begins to look like it took a very hard bounce on the left main. Enough of an impact to bend the wing down at the fuselage area. I didn't do a lot of angle measuring, but I would wonder if the spar isn't bent slightly, enough to angle the wing downward slightly and thereby tilt the gear inward. The good news is that the engine and mounting appear to be done properly.

It is enough that the mechanic would prefer not to be the one to do its continued maintenance. He says that, without some significant inspection into parts of the aircraft that he cannot currently see, and significant work on several parts, he would not even pass it for an annual. He also said that it really shouldn't have passed annual before. The person who did the repair is the one who annualled it last year. He says that the damage was more extensive to the wing than should have been attempted in a field repair. I actually had two different mechanics say the same thing.

This is really depressing.:(
 
Aztec Driver said:
Well, I have a preliminary report from Dutchland Aviation. It appears that there is a whole lot more to these repairs from the accident than meets the eye. The repair job was not done very well, as many of the rivets are not flat or square. The fuel tank does have a leak. The sheet metal joints are not straight and true. The rear rudder bushings are worn badly. The right gear door doesn't fit tight when closed. The real problems are the left main gear is tilted slightly inward. Add that to an outward bow above the wing in the fuselage and it begins to look like it took a very hard bounce on the left main. Enough of an impact to bend the wing down at the fuselage area. I didn't do a lot of angle measuring, but I would wonder if the spar isn't bent slightly, enough to angle the wing downward slightly and thereby tilt the gear inward. The good news is that the engine and mounting appear to be done properly.

It is enough that the mechanic would prefer not to be the one to do its continued maintenance. He says that, without some significant inspection into parts of the aircraft that he cannot currently see, and significant work on several parts, he would not even pass it for an annual. He also said that it really shouldn't have passed annual before. The person who did the repair is the one who annualled it last year. He says that the damage was more extensive to the wing than should have been attempted in a field repair. I actually had two different mechanics say the same thing.

This is really depressing.:(
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Sounds like a pass at any price if you want a plane to fly soon. Bummer, but there's more out there.
 
Bryon, did you know there is a mooney in a club over at LNS? One of their older members is retiring and they are looking for a new member. IIRC, buy in is 4500 and then the plane flies for something like 70 per hour wet. If you have any interest, PM me and I can get you to Jack Henderson, who is a contact person for the club.

Sorry to hear about this particular plane. Sure sounds like a "no go" to me. If Dennis doesn't want to maintain it, that would be enough for me to reject it.

Jim G
 
grattonja said:
Bryon, did you know there is a mooney in a club over at LNS? One of their older members is retiring and they are looking for a new member.
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How'd they get insurance? Last club I was in, we had to sell our two Mooney's, because NOBODY is insuring club Mooney's anymore. If you look into this, make sure you find out if they're insured! Sure miss the Mooney! Fast, low fuel burn, responsive little birds.
 
Bending the wing spar in a Mooney is real hard to do. That would have been some hard landing.

I would run away and be thankful you had a good person look it over.
 
So, assuming all repairs are brought up to proper levels, is the aircraft going to be worth something again in the future, or is it doomed to be a lousy investment forever? Not that it can be repaired economically, mind you.

I would hate to be the current owner of the plane. He had thought that everything was great on the plane and was trying to sell it to get the money back that he invested in it. He and another person partnered into it with the A&P that repaired it, who also annualled it the first time right after it was repaired. He is no longer their partner, so I assume they purchased his share out, thinking they had a great airplane. It still LOOKS great. I wonder if they will be able to annual it anywhere now.

So what is an M20J MSE?
 
Aztec Driver said:
So, assuming all repairs are brought up to proper levels, is the aircraft going to be worth something again in the future, or is it doomed to be a lousy investment forever? Not that it can be repaired economically, mind you.

I would hate to be the current owner of the plane. He had thought that everything was great on the plane and was trying to sell it to get the money back that he invested in it. He and another person partnered into it with the A&P that repaired it, who also annualled it the first time right after it was repaired. He is no longer their partner, so I assume they purchased his share out, thinking they had a great airplane. It still LOOKS great. I wonder if they will be able to annual it anywhere now.

So what is an M20J MSE?
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I've never heard of a spar bent let alone repaired so don't know what to say. I know when corrosion is found by the SB208A inpection, you take a big hit in resale. Proper repairs require rejigging and lots of money. I suspect spar would be similar. Mooney is built up to be one piece tip to tip.

MSE is a prettied up late model 201.
 
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The MSE is the Mooney Special Edition, later called the Allegro. I was a partner in '98 Allegro, it was wonderful. Basically the MSE was just what they called the J with the fully loaded panel at the time. I think there was a more "basic" J as well but the difference was all in the panel and interior appointments. This is my best memory and may not be correct.
 
Aztec Driver said:
So, assuming all repairs are brought up to proper levels, is the aircraft going to be worth something again in the future, or is it doomed to be a lousy investment forever? Not that it can be repaired economically, mind you.

I would hate to be the current owner of the plane. He had thought that everything was great on the plane and was trying to sell it to get the money back that he invested in it. He and another person partnered into it with the A&P that repaired it, who also annualled it the first time right after it was repaired. He is no longer their partner, so I assume they purchased his share out, thinking they had a great airplane. It still LOOKS great. I wonder if they will be able to annual it anywhere now.

So what is an M20J MSE?
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From what he described, the plane is a total constructive loss. It would cost far more to put to right than it's worth. The best thing is to tear it down and part it out.
 
Aztec Driver said:
The real problems are the left main gear is tilted slightly inward. Add that to an outward bow above the wing in the fuselage and it begins to look like it took a very hard bounce on the left main. Enough of an impact to bend the wing down at the fuselage area. I didn't do a lot of angle measuring, but I would wonder if the spar isn't bent slightly, enough to angle the wing downward slightly and thereby tilt the gear inward.
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Holy Crap! Sounds like it was landed by my partner in the first M-20J I owned (just KIDDING Buddy!).

Byron .......... RUN AWAY as fast as you can from this airplane ......

Rick
 
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