Moderate + Turbulence

CC268

Final Approach
Joined
Nov 4, 2015
Messages
5,532
Display Name

Display name:
CC268
Hey guys,

I went up yesterday with my instructor - I wasn't sure we were going to go up as we had a smaller storm coming in and it was cloudy (ceiling was 10,000' though). We headed out to the practice area and man it was quite the ride - very bumpy - it was my first time in true moderate turbulence. At one point we were in this downdraft and descending 500fpm even in level flight. Same thing happened over Pinnacle Peak at like 1000fpm (only for a few seconds this time). We were getting thrown all over the place, it was a crazy feeling!

I was fairly comfortable, but it definitely kept me on edge. Is there ever any concern that the turbulence could flip the plane upside down? (maybe that is a silly question). I wonder what it would be like to be in heavy - extreme turbulence...I tried to stay below the maneuvering speed of 97kts.

Anyways it was good experience but a little nerve racking - definitely a handful to keep the plane tracking straight and level.
 
With all respect, that is a silly question. But what if it did? You have the ability to recover from inverted flight. Just for fun, buy an hour or two of aerobatic instruction.

Bob Gardner
 
I know 2 pilots that have been flipped upside down by mechanical turbulence near mountains, and another 1 from this board who I recall telling a story about getting flipped by wake turbulence in a 1900.

I've personally been thrown about 70-80 degrees by turbulence - should not have been flying that day. Hit my head on the speaker above me so hard I split my noggin and was bleeding pretty good. Glad the wings stayed on.
 
FWIW, I saw a PIREP at AWC from a PC-12 for severe turbulence yesterday at 9000 ft 20 NM northwest of PHX. I don't ever remember seeing a PIREP for severe turbulence at AWC before so it made an impression.

And PC12s don't toss around the word severe turbulence lightly, plane needs in inspection after any encounter with severe.
 
At one point we were in this downdraft and descending 500fpm even in level flight.

I have been flying many years and have never had that happen. If it did, it would defy the laws of physics, let alone aerodynamics.
 
And PC12s don't toss around the word severe turbulence lightly, plane needs in inspection after any encounter with severe.
Once I told a controller "moderate chop over Rollins Pass, smooth everywhere else" I later looked at the Pirep, somehow that got converted to "severe turbulence over Rollins"... Not really sure where the disconnect happened. Made me feel like a wuss though.
 
I have been flying many years and have never had that happen. If it did, it would defy the laws of physics, let alone aerodynamics.
What about the law of non-contradiction?
 
I have been flying many years and have never had that happen. If it did, it would defy the laws of physics, let alone aerodynamics.

How does a downdraft violate the laws of physics and/or aerodynamics? I guess mountain wave does the same, as it alternates between updrafts and downdrafts? You can be in sustained level flight, and the parcel of air you are in can also be rising, descending or staying pretty level, just like it can be moving from slowly to pretty quickly in any horizontal direction (creating the favored tailwind and the much-maligned headwind).

I'd love to hear your thoughts . . . .
 
How does a downdraft violate the laws of physics and/or aerodynamics? I guess mountain wave does the same, as it alternates between updrafts and downdrafts? You can be in sustained level flight, and the parcel of air you are in can also be rising, descending or staying pretty level, just like it can be moving from slowly to pretty quickly in any horizontal direction (creating the favored tailwind and the much-maligned headwind).

I'd love to hear your thoughts . . . .

A downdraft or updraft doesn't violate any law, but "level flight" means your altitude remains constant, by definition. This means that you can't be in level flight while descending or climbing, as the OP said. All that would happen is your airspeed will increase or decrease (assuming constant power), for up or downdraft, while your altitude will remain the same. Not really rocket science.
 
Haha I love this site...I think every thread ever posted on here turns into an argument...need more popcorn
 
I apologize for asking the question I will refrain from doing so next time :(
 
New and low-time pilots ask questions and get crap.... and pilots wonder why aviation is dying? Aspiring pilots should be drawn in and welcomed by discussion boards. I think more young guys are repelled. That's a shame.

Your question was good. A plane inverting from turbulence is rare. I have a friend that describes it but I've never had anything close. Inability to control the airplane for me has usually been in up and down drafts. You can definitely find ups and downs that will leave you at the wind's mercy. I've had idle power/nose down and had the VSI showing 2000+ fpm climb and then full power/max performance climb profile and had the VSI showing 2000+ fpm descent. The transition from up to down was violent. Cinch the harness tight, watch your airspeed, and fly the plane. Like an instructor used to all me, you don't have to be comfortable but you do need to be competent.
 
Once I told a controller "moderate chop over Rollins Pass, smooth everywhere else" I later looked at the Pirep, somehow that got converted to "severe turbulence over Rollins"... Not really sure where the disconnect happened. Made me feel like a wuss though.

Haha no, they like to "over-report" in that pass. Mostly because taking passengers through that area is a barf inducing process for any pilot not used to what the actual definition of "moderate" means. They also have airlines descending right there, and if they come screaming down in the descent to that northwest "gate" for DEN, they're likely to bounce their FAs off of the ceiling.

The day I left here to go get the monkey there were PIREPs for moderate "west of BJC", and the winds aloft story matched. I knew I was going to get my butt kicked in Rollins/Corona and maybe have to execute a turn-around if the down drafts in that stupid rotor that always sets up behind the peak to the northwest of the pass were too much for the available power in the 182.

Downers of 1000-1200 fpm and rocking back and forth 30 degrees was pretty much what I expected, and got... plus continuous bumps. Right up until even with Eldora Ski Area.

I was 1000' of altitude from calling it quits, and heading back out to go around via Alamosa/ABQ, but it was just a time/speed/distance problem...would I be past Eldora before it stopped. The numbers held and right at Eldora it turned into the standard elevator ride up as the peak no longer blocked the laminar flow over the pass, and I ended up in a 2000 fpm upper with the engine at idle and as smooth as a baby's butt.

Wouldn't have taken a passenger with me on that route that day, at all. Not even my wife who's been out in unforecast and unplanned moderate. It's just not a comfortable ride at all, but it's not inherently "unsafe", at least at or below Va. Not kidding when I say I also cranked my seat all the way down and tightened my lap belt. I've gotten the bruise on the head from a headset hitting the overhead and it's not pleasant.

Since I was holding Vy and not going up for about two minutes, I wasn't too worried about having to slow up. I was watching for my "no-cross" altitude on the altimeter, which I was below but still had time to see if it could be made up before having to make the turn out and take the "out" down valley.

I can only credit that decision making process to having crossed that pass a bejillion times in "not quite that bad but still challenging" winds, in order to see how the mechanics of the airflow work in there.

Corona/Rollins is unique like all mountain passes. Give me similar forecasts at La Veta, and I'm not even sticking my nose in it. Too far to go with no "outs".

Not a fan of Loveland Pass at all in a light aircraft for a similar reason, the approach already has you in a position of zero outs unless you start miles away very high. Direction also counts...

The outs crossing Hagerman east to west are beautiful, everything is very downhill from basically a sheer cliff wall. Good thing, too... That's where the massive rotor is going to be with west to east prevailing winds. Just don't drive straight at the thing. West to east, you'd better have 1000 AGL before committing to that last 1/4 mile and be on your game to turn out immediately if a downer starts, or you'll be cutting it way too close and probably need to change underwear.

Well anyway, to the OP... Welcome to the "continuous moderate turbulence" club. It's annoying as heck when you're flying for "fun", but sometimes it happens, either despite of the best planning, or in my case, because of it.

After a while once you have a little of that and a lot of "continuous chop" in the logbook, you develop the ability to not notice it much. We took a friend up on a day that had a few moments of light chop in the climb out that ended only three or four minutes after departure and they remarked to Karen and I "how bumpy it was!" once. Karen and I both looked at each other and later after the friend had gone home I said, "So did you even notice any real turbulence?" "Nope. But I think it was a little bumpy after takeoff and I didn't notice it, but thinking about it we probably should have told her it would stop in a minute."

We both had a good chuckle about that. I think the last time we did a long XC we hit a few minutes of slightly harder than light bumps underneath some towering CU and Karen was more annoyed that she had to put her book away and stop reading than anything. Heh. She also remarked on a couple of flights when I was instrument current and we climbed out through a broken CU layer and got on top, "You should've told me it was smoother up here, I'd have told you to go get your instrument license sooner. Nice view, too."

LOL. She's not exactly shy about picking on my flying after all of these years.
 
Hit my head on the speaker above me so hard I split my noggin and was bleeding pretty good.

I once hit a big bump and smacked my head so hard I was dazed, sunglasses flew off and my headset too... then I realized I didn't have my seat belt on. :oops:

So I have to ask... did you have your seatbelt on? :D
 
I've been rolled 30*, in the ERJ, on takeoff by a roter coming off a hanger. It was one of those that knocks you awake and tries to knock the other pilot out.

I've been in what I'd call borderline severe/extreme in a 757-3. The pilots thought it was a wonderful idea to take off in the middle of a storm system. To put it mildly, the aircraft's interior resembled a snow globe being shook. I got hit in the head with headphones from several rows in front me. My iPad went into the ceiling before I could catch it. I tried to keep a poker face, since I was in uniform, but even the Purser looked scared.
 
I can't help the question but did you learn anything from that flight? What was the point of taking up a student in those conditions?

Absolutely! I thought it was great to experience a rough ride like that. We did an emergency decent as well as an engine out emergency. It was actually really smooth at Scottsdale, just really bumpy in the practice area. I wouldn't fly on a day like that personally, but still a good experience with my instructor...
 
I once hit a big bump and smacked my head so hard I was dazed, sunglasses flew off and my headset too... then I realized I didn't have my seat belt on. :oops:

So I have to ask... did you have your seatbelt on? :D

I did....I learned that day a seatbelt isn't much good when it's loose.
 
Absolutely! I thought it was great to experience a rough ride like that. .... It was actually really smooth at Scottsdale, just really bumpy in the practice area. I wouldn't fly on a day like that personally, but still a good experience with my instructor...

You'll probably get the same, but my CFI in 2007 "adjusted" my lesson time to 2-3 pm in the summer ... we're in the desert also. Plenty of rough air from either thermals, afternoon TS development, etc. The only instances I get caught in this time window now is on return flights from California ... am at 600+ hours now and will fly through it if necessary, but prefer not to if able ...
 
You'll probably get the same, but my CFI in 2007 "adjusted" my lesson time to 2-3 pm in the summer ... we're in the desert also. Plenty of rough air from either thermals, afternoon TS development, etc. The only instances I get caught in this time window now is on return flights from California ... am at 600+ hours now and will fly through it if necessary, but prefer not to if able ...

Yea I will probably be finishing up my PPL mid summer so I will get plenty of time in rough air thats for sure. I usually fly Tuesday and Thursday 4:30PM and Saturday mornings.
 
I apologize for asking the question I will refrain from doing so next time :(

You're fine. When you start to spend time around pilots, I think you'll find that we all know everything, and everyone else is wrong. Don't let it get to you. Take the comments here for what they are worth. They are people on the internet telling you what they think.
 
Hey guys,

I went up yesterday with my instructor - I wasn't sure we were going to go up as we had a smaller storm coming in and it was cloudy (ceiling was 10,000' though). We headed out to the practice area and man it was quite the ride - very bumpy - it was my first time in true moderate turbulence. At one point we were in this downdraft and descending 500fpm even in level flight. Same thing happened over Pinnacle Peak at like 1000fpm (only for a few seconds this time). We were getting thrown all over the place, it was a crazy feeling!

I was fairly comfortable, but it definitely kept me on edge. Is there ever any concern that the turbulence could flip the plane upside down? (maybe that is a silly question). I wonder what it would be like to be in heavy - extreme turbulence...I tried to stay below the maneuvering speed of 97kts.

Anyways it was good experience but a little nerve racking - definitely a handful to keep the plane tracking straight and level.

I took my checkride in July of last year. I was doing all of my final touch up work in the 115 - 120 F summer time temperatures. It was brutal. I recall one day we were in the practice area and climbing to practice emergency descents. I was pitched up for Vy on the ASI and had full power in, and was making about proper RPM, and we were descending... I started talking through what was happening. I couldn't figure out what was happening. I vocalized the problem with my instructor and he pointed out that we were likely in some kind of downdraft. He took the controls for a moment, and started to turn, we felt a little turbulence and transitioned into an updraft and started climbing at a decent rate.

When the air you're flying through is moving down at a rate faster than you can climb, you won't be able to maintain level flight. If you have your airplane trimmed for level flight in calm conditions, and you hit a 500 fpm down draft, you'll start descending at 500 fpm.
 
And it's not limited to deserts or high mountains.

I once popped over the hills for a $100 burger at Half Moon Bay, and climbed out over the pass at Vno in a 172. Likely mountain wave activity; it was quite smooth with no clouds.
 
I apologize for asking the question I will refrain from doing so next time :(

LOL :) You asked the question many new pilots wanted to know but were afraid to ask. The good news is that you don't have worry about being flipped inverted, unless you wander into turbulence that has some rotation to it (e.g., wake turbulence).
 
LOL :) You asked the question many new pilots wanted to know but were afraid to ask. The good news is that you don't have worry about being flipped inverted, unless you wander into turbulence that has some rotation to it (e.g., wake turbulence).
Wake turbulence is one possibility, but rotors can occur naturally too, and sometimes where you would least expect them. Once as a student pilot I was with my first CFI in a 152 over KPHN in MI, far from any mountains or heavies, and a rotor took hold of us and banked us about 45 degrees. CFI took over and righted the plane immediately, but if he hadn't been paying attention there's a chance we could have wound up at 80 or 90 degrees, it was pretty aggressive. Otherwise it was a fairly smooth day, not a lot of chop or other turbulence. A good reminder that the wind can do freaky things sometimes, and we need to always be ready to react.
 
Back
Top