Mission + Pilot = Which Aircraft?

EdFred said:
2:30 to drive to DTW, then I gotta park, then I have to stand around for 90 minutes either in the TSA line, or on the other side of it, and I still haven't boarded, oh yeah, and I forgot about checking in any luggage I may have. I'm 3:45 in the Comanche to MYR from 9D9, and anyone leaving my house is probably getting ON the plane at DTW about the time I am landing at MYR if we left my house at the same time.
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Your plane is a 10-15% quicker than mine, that helps.
 
Payload? Our club's C-172N with the 180 hp Penn Yan conversion can carry 755 pounds in the cabin with full long range (50 gal usable) tanks. That's about 6 hours worth of fuel at 65% power (114 KTAS). Not fast, but a load hauler. With full tanks it beats our C-182P by about 100 pounds.

Time? If I'm crossing the state of Washington I have three choices. OLM to PUW is about 5 1/2 hours (or longer if the weather messes up the pass) if I drive. About 4 hours door to door if I ride Horizon. 1 hour to SEA, arrive 2 hours before flight time and about 1 hour gate to gate. I'm almost better off driving. If the weather cooperates and I can take the Victor airways across the state and straight over the Cascades, the 182 or Arrow will get from OLM to PUW in about 2 hours. Add 1/2 hour or so if I have to use the sea level pass through the Cascades (Columbia River gorge). So, weather permitting, flying myself is the fastest, even if you add the 20 minute drive to the airport and 20-30 minutes to pre-flight and taxi to the active.

Cost? Driving will take a bit over $100 worth of gas for the round trip. And I can take several other people at no incremental cost. Riding Horizon will se me back under $200 per seat for the round trip, plus the 110 mile round trip from my house to SEA plus parking at the airport. Call it $250 or so for one person. Flying myself, best case is 2 hours Hobbs each way at $100/hour in the 182 for a total of $400. Slower, but lower cost per hour, in the 172 and it might be ever so slightly less expensive that way. Haven't made the trip with more than my wife in the plane with me. So, on a seat basis, flying myself with my wife is less expensive than riding Horizon, but not by much. Driving is the least expensive way to get there. What's my time worth and what is the enjoyment factor involved with flying myself? That's where it wins. I'm really tired of that drive as we make it a number of times a year.

Just some food for thought in deciding if this is the right thing to do. I will say that I've cancelled FAR more flights across the state than I've made. VFR only around here does limit things at times. And when I get my IR there are still plenty of weather conditions that will have me driving, rather than flying. We have a rather wicked ice machine around here, and I don't like ice in a 182.
 
Thanks to everyone for taking the time to post here.

Regarding commercial travel times, most of my destinations would require a plane change. Philly is a "soft" hub for USAir, but for the southeast nearly everything connects through Charlotte.

@Ron: Thanks for the paper. Most of my destinations are closer to 600nm rather than 300nm. Does that change the calculus for retractable vs fixed?

One actual example: Travel to Dublin, GA via commercial requires non-stop PHL to ATL (2:30), followed by a 2:30 min drive. KLOM to KDBN is 588nm (straight line).

Another actual example: Travel to Chattanooga, TN via commercial requires PHL-CLT (1:50), layover (1-2 hrs), CLT-CHA (1:30 on a t-prop). KLOM to KCHA is 563nm.

Of course add in the other waiting times associated with commercial travel, etc.

Another Question for those with local weather knowledge in the southeast and mid-atlantic:

Assume I buy a decently-equipped single with data-link radar and stormscope (not-FIKI), get my IR, and bring along an experienced CFII on the bad days until I build up my own experience. My time for the business meeting at my destination is fixed, but I have flexibility on when I depart or return. For example, I can depart a few hours prior to forecasted convection, or wait out thunderstorms before returning. But I would not depart two days early to avoid widespread icing (I'll go commercial instead). My travel is from Philadelphia to various towns in the southeast, once per week. I'd likely fly in the day before, stay overnight, attend meeting, then fly out. What should I expect for a dispatch rate (if that's the correct term) over the course of a year? I have a low risk tolerance, although that's a subjective statement in itself.

I read somewhere about the idea of always purchasing a refundable ticket on commercial travel, just in case. I like this line of thinking.
 
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jpsmall said:
Another Question for those with local weather knowledge in the southeast and mid-atlantic:

Assume I buy a decently-equipped single with data-link radar and stormscope (not-FIKI), get my IR, and bring along an experienced CFII on the bad days until I build up my own experience. My time for the business meeting at my destination is fixed, but I have flexibility on when I depart or return. For example, I can depart a few hours prior to forecasted convection, or wait out thunderstorms before returning. But I would not depart two days early to avoid widespread icing (I'll go commercial instead). My travel is from Philadelphia to various towns in the southeast, once per week. I'd likely fly in the day before, stay overnight, attend meeting, then fly out. What should I expect for a dispatch rate (if that's the correct term) over the course of a year? I have a low risk tolerance, although that's a subjective statement in itself.
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I have some experience with repeat longer flights (FWQ to CRE, AVL, and CLT, for example).

From April through October, you will be able to get to/from 80% of the time as long as you have at least a 2 hour buffer either way and have minimum equipment on board (XM and StormScope) and know how to interpret and apply what those tools are displaying.

In a non-FIKI bird, that rate will drop to 10% during long weeks such as we have experienced this winter.
 
Leavitt said:
Just buy a Mooney you know you want one anyway:arf:
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I would need to have my left arm amputated and my shoulder removed all the way to the clavicle to fit comfortably in one.
 
My $0.02.

1. It sounds like the 2 kids are still fairly young, so just about any high performance single will meet your needs.

2. Whatever the airframe, make sure that it has the range to take on the 600nm flight in single leg with IFR reserves and a reasonable headwind. In the grand scheme of things - having to occasionally stop on your 600nm trip will cost more time than a slower plane with better range.

3. Given the long, single pilot legs... Make sure to get a plane with a nice autopilot, altitude hold, and (ideally) coupled via GPSS to a Garmin 430 or 530.

4. And of course, it is much better to buy a well equipped plane now than to buy cheap and fix-up. Airplane improvements return about $0.50 on the dollar, plus they incur weeks or months of downtime.







jpsmall said:
Howdy PoA'ers! I'm a long-time lurker here, and thought I'd poke my head in the door, say hello, and ask a question or two.

What aircraft would you recommend for the following:

Primary Mission: Average once-a-week business trip, distance of 600 nm, east of the Mississippi. Usually from the mid-atlantic to the southeastern US. Occasionally from the mid-atlantic to the midwest. One occupant with light luggage.

Secondary Mission: Use for family trips on weekends, etc. Two adults, two small children, plus luggage. Approximate total weight of 500 lbs.

Pilot Profile: Low-time pilot, 100 hours. Will obtain Instrument rating prior to start of travel and/or hire instructor as ride-along. Is located near commercial airports and able to use air carriers as back-up for weather, mechanical, and time constraints.

Budget: Still developing my budget. Operating cost is a bigger factor in the equation than acquisition cost, although both matter. Resale value (depreciation) is important as I would likely want to upgrade in 5 years as my experience increases.

Thanks in advance for your suggestions and comments.


EDIT: If you stumbled across this thread in search of similar information, here's a few other threads of interest I've found in my quest for knowledge:

1200 nm Every 2 wks. posted by mn_voyageur: http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=34183
What now? posted by QuixoteAg: http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=33712
Socata TB-20, thoughts? posted by PilotAlan: http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=32172
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Having the flexibility you describe will be key. For the last 10 years, I have used my relatively meagerly equipped Cherokee 180 for both business meetings and vacations and found it quite reliable. A high performance plane would make it even easier.

For business, I schedule meetings for the mid-afternoon. This gives a chance to wake up, check weather, and make a fly or no-fly decision... leaving time to get to ORD for a commercial flight, or drive to the meeting (6-8hrs).

Summer travel is pretty easy. Mornings or evenings generally will avoid most cumulus buildup and tstorms. A close eye on the internet (preflight) and XM WX inflight make it easy route around the storms, or to know when to land and wait it out. With tstorms, 6-12 hrs waiting can make a huge difference. In fact, in all my summer flying, not once have I needed to leave the plane somewhere and fly home commercial. Nor have I been delayed more than 12-24 hours.

Winter travel is more restrictive, but still has been good. In the Midwest, we often get IMC/icing type conditions that stick around for a few days at a time... so if I absolutely have to be somewhere, I usually book on American, Southwest, or at least keep an eye on ticket prices. Once, I've committed to flying though - it has not been too bad. Coming home from Florida, I got stuck in Chattanooga for 2.5 days due to icing. I also have left my plane in Kansas City for a few days while I flew home commercial. I had to go back for work anyway, so it was not a big deal.

Since my commercial airport is ORD or MDW, it is usually very easy to get a flight home from any location... and usually not priced too badly either, even last minute.


jpsmall said:
Another Question for those with local weather knowledge in the southeast and mid-atlantic:

Assume I buy a decently-equipped single with data-link radar and stormscope (not-FIKI), get my IR, and bring along an experienced CFII on the bad days until I build up my own experience. My time for the business meeting at my destination is fixed, but I have flexibility on when I depart or return. For example, I can depart a few hours prior to forecasted convection, or wait out thunderstorms before returning.
<snip>
.
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Given the missions, I'd look for a four place single with TKS (preferably but not necessarily FIKI). AFaIK that narrows the choices to a Mooney M20J/K, a Cirrus SR22, or a Beech Bonanza. Without good ice protection there will be way too many times during the colder half of the year when a business trip will be infeasible. Any of those three+ would cover the stated needs. The Bonanza is the most pleasant to fly but that light control force can be a detriment when hand flying in IMC. The Cirrus would likely have the highest acquisition cost and even though it's fixed gear the insurance premium would probably be the highest. Then again with the Cirrus, it's unlikely a low time pilot would forget to lower the gear before landing. The Mooney has less baggage space and rear seat legroom than most Bonanzas but it burns about 25% less fuel going the same speed. And if you ignore my advice about ice protection, the Bonanza will be less affected by the inevitable inadvertent ice encounter.
 
jpsmall said:
@Ron: Thanks for the paper. Most of my destinations are closer to 600nm rather than 300nm. Does that change the calculus for retractable vs fixed?
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It well could. Flying that far at 150 knots vs 130 knots can be the difference between non-stop and one-stop in many wind conditions. You'll have to do the math on all that, considering how often you fly where, and get a broker to give you some idea of the insurance costs for a retractable for someone of your currently-limited experience.
Assume I buy a decently-equipped single with data-link radar and stormscope (not-FIKI), get my IR, and bring along an experienced CFII on the bad days until I build up my own experience. My time for the business meeting at my destination is fixed, but I have flexibility on when I depart or return. For example, I can depart a few hours prior to forecasted convection, or wait out thunderstorms before returning. But I would not depart two days early to avoid widespread icing (I'll go commercial instead). My travel is from Philadelphia to various towns in the southeast, once per week. I'd likely fly in the day before, stay overnight, attend meeting, then fly out. What should I expect for a dispatch rate (if that's the correct term) over the course of a year? I have a low risk tolerance, although that's a subjective statement in itself.
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It's hard to say. My gut level feeling after the last 20 years flying myself around on business in the target area an airplane of that sort (less the on-board weather until more recently) is that your reliability rate will be on the order of 80%, but it will vary by season (lower in the winter, better in the spring and fall).
I read somewhere about the idea of always purchasing a refundable ticket on commercial travel, just in case. I like this line of thinking.
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Having that already in your pocket always encourages better go/no-go decisions.
 
gismo said:
Given the missions, I'd look for a four place single with TKS (preferably but not necessarily FIKI). AFaIK that narrows the choices to a Mooney M20J/K, a Cirrus SR22, or a Beech Bonanza.
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How many of those are priced under $150K, and insurable for a non-IR 100-hour PPL?
 
Ron Levy said:
How many of those are priced under $150K, and insurable for a non-IR 100-hour PPL?
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In this market, probably more than you'd think price wise.

As to the insurance/IR issue he said something about having a CFI accompany him on trips until he finished the IR. And I know of several pilots who have obtained insurance in a Bonanza without an IR although the premium would likely be noticeably higher until the IR was completed.

Edit: Here's a Bonanza with TKS, mid time engine, and usable but obsolete avionics listed for $110k.
http://www.aest-sales.com/n2023l.html
 
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Mooney 252 has FIKI, I have wide shoulders and have had a problem fitting in a mooney, if you find it a bit tight then you just have the right seater move back 2in.
 
Ron Levy said:
How many of those are priced under $150K, and insurable for a non-IR 100-hour PPL?
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I would bet the mooneys would be insurable, maybe not a type S.
It wont be real cheap but it can be done.
 
COST who cares about COST we are all rich didn't you get the memo.

Not sure what it would be, but we paid 3200 for our first year a t 70K hull, and student pilot.
 
Ron Levy said:
It's hard to say. My gut level feeling after the last 20 years flying myself around on business in the target area an airplane of that sort (less the on-board weather until more recently) is that your reliability rate will be on the order of 80%, but it will vary by season (lower in the winter, better in the spring and fall).
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Ron, this post proves either:
Great minds think alike :yesnod:
or
You don't read previous posts before responding. :skeptical:

dmccormack said:
I have some experience with repeat longer flights (FWQ to CRE, AVL, and CLT, for example).

From April through October, you will be able to get to/from 80% of the time as long as you have at least a 2 hour buffer either way and have minimum equipment on board (XM and StormScope) and know how to interpret and apply what those tools are displaying.

In a non-FIKI bird, that rate will drop to 10% during long weeks such as we have experienced this winter.
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Ted DuPuis said:
You note that your location is Philly. As I'm sure you're aware, that means that in the winter you have icing as a very real concern, and that will limit your dispatchability. After a couple hundred hours flying whatever plane you get, you may want to consider a FIKI twin to get better dispatchability, but that will depend on your budget.

There was a similar thread recently... now I can't remember where it was. Anyone else?
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Have a specific Aztruck in mind that may or may not be on the market soon :rofl:

astanley said:
And I'll note that it is 73 days away from the Wings fly in, where you can meet a number of Philly-based, and eastern US based, pilots who have gone through the same process you have. Eat barbecue, talk aviation, look at planes, commit random acts of aviation...

Join us!

Cheers,

-Andrew
Wings Fly-B-Que self-appointed evangelist
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Rub it in huh? No more Wings for me :( We need a fly-in for CO eh?


My 2 cents on the issue. In my extensive history of wanting/dreaming of planes my last RG planes that have been on that list and why I personally eliminated it from that list:
Bellanca Viking - Very expensive maintenance, and it MUST be hangared
Piper Comanche 250 - I won't need the power or room and thus subsequent higher fuel burn.
Mooney M20G/F - Current plane I want/dream of

My list of non-RG planes is SO extensive I'm not sure I even remember them all but I'm sure I've gone through just about every plane known to man :yesnod:
 
Leavitt said:
Mooney 252 has FIKI, I have wide shoulders and have had a problem fitting in a mooney, if you find it a bit tight then you just have the right seater move back 2in.
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Is this the part when I tell folks that this particular 6 foot 3 inch pilot with very broad shoulders weighing in at 245 pounds has has absolutely zero trouble being very comfortable in the Mooney 252 that he's owned for more than four years? Mine is for sale...spend another 40K on the FIKI mod and you've got a very fine, easy to operate and maintain airplane. Heck...I'll even throw in the instrument transition for nada. :yawn:
 
Mtns2Skies said:
Have a specific Aztruck in mind that may or may not be on the market soon :rofl:



Rub it in huh? No more Wings for me :( We need a fly-in for CO eh?


My 2 cents on the issue. In my extensive history of wanting/dreaming of planes my last RG planes that have been on that list and why I personally eliminated it from that list:
Bellanca Viking - Very expensive maintenance, and it MUST be hangared
Piper Comanche 250 - I won't need the power or room and thus subsequent higher fuel burn.
Mooney M20G/F - Current plane I want/dream of

My list of non-RG planes is SO extensive I'm not sure I even remember them all but I'm sure I've gone through just about every plane known to man :yesnod:
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What??? You removed the Comanche from your want list? :eek: :eek: :mad::mad:
 
EdFred said:
What??? You removed the Comanche from your want list? :eek: :eek: :mad::mad:
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Sorry Ed! Still love the plane but it is more plane than I NEED. It seems I've been getting a bit more realistic lets check the horsepower trends
Viking - 300hp
Comanche - 250hp
Mooney - 180/200hp
 
Ignore my last post I see you are based at Wings. One idea might be to talk to Tom a MCA about a fractional in on of the Cirrus' he has on the field. He was selling some shares at a reasonable price. Its got the speed and can carry 2 adults and 2 kids but not sure about the rest of the payload.
 
Mtns2Skies said:
Sorry Ed! Still love the plane but it is more plane than I NEED. It seems I've been getting a bit more realistic lets check the horsepower trends
Viking - 300hp
Comanche - 250hp
Mooney - 180/200hp
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A friend of mine has a 180 HP Comanche for sale, would that work?
 
jpsmall said:
Primary Mission: Average once-a-week business trip, distance of 600 nm, east of the Mississippi.

Secondary Mission: Use for family trips on weekends, etc. Two adults, two small children, plus luggage. Approximate total weight of 500 lbs.

Pilot Profile: Low-time pilot, 100 hours. Will obtain Instrument rating prior to start of travel and/or hire instructor as ride-along.

Budget: Resale value (depreciation) is important as I would likely want to upgrade in 5 years as my experience increases.

Thanks in advance for your suggestions and comments.
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My opinion: Mid to late 70s Mooney M20F.

Primary mission: Range exceeds 600NM and will do it at 155 knots.

Secondary: Will carry the specified load with room to spare for a bag or the family Labrador.

Pilot profile: Will get you complex time as you work toward your instrument rating. The insurance company will be pleased that you will have the CFI along since there will be a dual requirement to meet because of the retractable gear.

Budget: Planes available around 70K, well below your budget. With the lower value, insurance won't be unbearable. As for resale, I don't think there will be a better time to be buying an airplane and anything should have a higher resale in 5 years.
 
Mtns2Skies said:
Sorry Ed! Still love the plane but it is more plane than I NEED. It seems I've been getting a bit more realistic lets check the horsepower trends
Viking - 300hp
Comanche - 250hp
Mooney - 180/200hp
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There are Comanches with as little as 180HP and as much as 400HP, and Mooneys with as much as 310HP. The question is which model of Mooney, or which submodel of Comanche, we're talking about.
 
I'm not a fan of TKS personally, but I've also never used it. I just have too many problems with the bottle running out, and needing to have it on in all potential icing conditions. Boots aren't perfect, but I wouldn't want to willingly venture into ice with TKS.

It sounds like you've got an upgrade path going on. Start out with a complex single to build some hours in, upgrade to a FIKI twin.
 
Ron Levy said:
There are Comanches with as little as 180HP and as much as 400HP, and Mooneys with as much as 310HP. The question is which model of Mooney, or which submodel of Comanche, we're talking about.
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Comanche 180 isn't quite strong or fast enough for my desires. Mooney's with more hp, are again, more plane than I NEED.
 
Mtns2Skies said:
Comanche 180 isn't quite strong or fast enough for my desires. Mooney's with more hp, are again, more plane than I NEED.
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Didn't know we were discussing your needs/desires as they weren't stated, just what planes might suit the OP's, so I was just pointing out that there is a wider range of power available with the makes/models you mentioned.
 
Ron Levy said:
Didn't know we were discussing your needs/desires as they weren't stated, just what planes might suit the OP's, so I was just pointing out that there is a wider range of power available with the makes/models you mentioned.
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Yes, sorry I thread-jacked.
 
Here's an idea for you..

Find a good rental outfit close to your main destination. Fly commercial to there and then do you local hops using the rental plane. If the weather didn't permit you to fly you could still take care of your business via commercial flight down and then a rental car.

Even thought I really enjoy my trip from NY to Florida ( 6 - 9 hours )
I wouldn't want to do it more than 1 or 2 times per year, but I sure would love to have my plane down there to travel all over the Florida area.

Jon
 
TR182.

People will say "Eeek a turbo -that's too expensive." They usually don't have a turbo, nor have they.

People will say "Eeek, Cessna retractable gear." Ditto.

If you're travelling a long way, and may face wx, a turbo is very very nice, because you can keep a good ROC up to the high thousands.

Cessna RG is, with appropriate mx, not a big deal, particularly because the TR182s come with the later, somewhat less complex gear system.

Comfortable. You can equip with with Flint tip tanks for extended range. 145kts at 14 gph. Capable short field performer, tho' I wouldn't want to take those little tires into a rough field. Some have a de-ice package (not FIKI) consisting of windshield hotplate and heated prop. Also have built-in Ox systems. Fantastic plane in my experience.


Alternatively, for the low-wing crowd, a Turbo Arrow. Cheaper, with more reliable gear. Capable of 175ktas up high if I'm not mistaken. I don't like the single-door concept myself. 200lb baggage cap. I don't think they have built in ox, so your looking at a portable tank to go high. Any fool can fix one. I've heard some folks say they like the factory wastegate system, but most folks opt for the Merlyn upper deck controller. Other than the turbo it's standard Piper factory issue stuff. Plain vanilla. No surprises, and no parts issues whatsoever.
 
flyersfan31 said:
Alternatively, for the low-wing crowd, a Turbo Arrow. Cheaper, with more reliable gear.
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Put some hours in an Arrow before you buy. Heck, I'd recommend that for any plane. I've got a little over 60 hours in the club's Arrow and it's fine - for short flights. I'm not sure what the problem is, but my limit (and it probably exceeds my limit) is 3 hours. After that it's all I can do to crawl out of the plane. My knees are not happy. Angle of seat to pedals? I don't know. I just hurt after a 3 hour flight. The 182? No problem at all. YMMV.

I'll second the comment on the reliable gear. The emergency extention system doesn't get any simpler - without going fixed gear, of course. :D
 
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