Missing Log Books

Ventucky Red

Ventucky Red

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Jon
I have been approached by a local owner to purchase an airplane that has no log books from 2013 back to 1975 27 years....

The current owner is telling me the the first owner of the airplane passed away and the log books we're never found or presented at the sale of the aircraft.. I am also being told by the owner that the airplane has been local to the area and that with a little forensic work I should be able to put together a lose interpretation of the aircraft's maintenance with some of the shops in the area. Noted is was something he was going to do but never got to it..

The plane is currently in annual, has been flying regularly for the past couple of years, the engine compression are good, and he is doing an oil analysis now. Talking to the shop that has been dong the maintenance since the current owner got it, they note that the plane in descent shape for its age and all the AD's are current... and the owner is telling me there are no 337's n the plane... he checked when he bought it.

With that, the current owner is stating a very low air frame and engine time.... this is where I am mostly concerned... the Hobbs and tac don't look like the have been recently replaced, but then again that current owner has had the plane for the past five years and there no telling what has been changed out...

My first inclination is to walk, but!!!!! Opinions and/or advice on this, would you move on it or walk...???

Thanks
 
Don't walk.... run!:eek:

JK. But I'm interested in reading the responses. You could request records from the FAA. That might fill in some gaps.

What make and model?
 
Make & model matter a lot. It it has life limited components, airframe age matters. If it does not, the AD review can be more complex than a paperwork drill.

The market wants records, but if it's priced appropriately, it could be fine. Maybe...
 
I can’t fathom of what you would do with a plane without logs? How do you determine when to overhaul an engine or prop? Guess? Wait till it acts up?

On the other side how willing is the seller willing to discount the purchase without the logs? I imagine a steep discount is in order on a plane that is without logs.
What kinda plane?
 
If it's a Cessna 150 a small reduced price over the going price of them, remember when you go to sell it you will deal with a limited market that will buy a plane without all the logs. If it's a complex airplane like a Bo unless it's a give away price, walk.
 
I’d walk. The older the aircraft is, the longer it will take for the true history of the airplane to manifest itself, if ever.

You’d be lucky if some of those older shops still have any record of the aircrafts history and you’d be really lucky if they’re still in business.

27 years without any record of maintenance history? Pass.
 
Well depends, doesn't everything lol

What type plane, it's one thing to be missing 20 year old logs and to be able to reconstruct things somewhat from shops that did work, but 2013 is a little recent.

If this is a common plane, i.e. 172, 182, PA28 AA5 etc, it needs to be a major discount.

If this is not a common plane, well now we go down another path.


So yeah, what type of plane are we talking and how much of a discount.
 
I've heard some planes have been reconstructed from a data plate, sans any logs. But those are pretty rare birds.
 
Ventucky Red said:
Opinions and/or advice on this, would you move on it or walk...???
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To put it into perspective, there is no requirement to have all aircraft records back to original certification -- only certain records per Part 91. Is it preferred to have all these records? Yes. But it's not a deal breaker. Best place to start is talk to your AP/IA and see what he thinks. Since it's flying now then that's a big bonus. Figure out how much the lack of aircraft history means to you and make offer based on that cost.
 
and all the AD's are current...

How do they know this? Seems like there would’ve been some AD inspections during those 27 years...
 
Ryanb said:
I’d walk. The older the aircraft is, the longer it will take for the true history of the airplane to manifest itself, if ever.

You’d be lucky if some of those older shops still have any record of the aircrafts history and you’d be really lucky if they’re still in business.

27 years without any record of maintenance history? Pass.
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How do you know that just because a plane has logs that everything in them is true? You don't, I know plenty of skywagon that have been crashed and repaired off the books even though they have logbooks.

I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand. Like any airplane a good prebuy will reveal all. I'm sure there are planes that have been immaculately maintained on paper that are complete junk and others that haven't seen an official annual in a decade that are golden.

Paperwork does not equal safety.
 
Bell206 said:
Best place to start is talk to your AP/IA and see what he thinks.
Click to expand...
This...your IA is the one who will determine what it will cost you to make this airplane legal.

Since it's flying now then that's a big bonus.
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Not so much this...it means approximately nothing, IMO. Your choice of IA and his knowlege of what's required to consider the airplane legal/safe is the bonus.
 
WillFly4Food said:
and all the AD's are current...

How do they know this? Seems like there would’ve been some AD inspections during those 27 years...
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Duh!!! Good point... could they have gone through and inspected everything like it was for the first time to make sure it is current?
 
MauleSkinner said:
what it will cost you to make this airplane legal.
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Curious. Why would you say the aircraft is not "legal" if it is in annual and has been flying for a couple of years? Someone signed the annual.
 
Bell206 said:
Curious. Why would you say the aircraft is not "legal" if it is in annual and has been flying for a couple of years? Someone signed the annual.
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I've seen lots of airplanes that had current inspection sign offs that were in no way legal because the person signing off the inspection either didn't do due diligence or flat out lied. A signature alone doesn't cut it.

That's why people do prepurchase inspections, including a thorough review of logs.
 
WillFly4Food said:
and all the AD's are current...

How do they know this? Seems like there would’ve been some AD inspections during those 27 years...
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Because they had to be complied with at last annual.

Let's get real, it is in annual now, it is in good condition, who gives a rat's putoot what the previous logs say, as long as it does not have life limited parts, but even if it does, they can be changed.
 
MauleSkinner said:
I've seen lots of airplanes that had current inspection sign offs that were in no way legal because the person signing off the inspection either didn't do due diligence or flat out lied. A signature alone doesn't cut it.
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Yes it does.
 
Just remember, any tire kicker can find a reason not to buy, but it takes a savvy buyer to see a good deal.
 
I bought my current 425 with the original 15 years of logbooks missing, from 1985 to 2000, it had been sold twice with missing logs. They were found, but the guy that owned it at the time refused to buy $30K for them from the owner in New Orleans. Then Katrina took care of them permanently! He sold it at a discount to the guy that sold it to me at a discount. We’ve got everything from 2000 forward including maintenance by good shops like WestStar. I’m comfortable with the situation, I’d prefer all the original books, but it is what it is. When I sell it, it will be for less than a comparable one with complete logs. In the OP’s situation I’d be much more concerned about how short the history is on the airplane. I wouldn’t run if it’s priced right and he can verify overhaul times etc, but it needs to be a bargain. :D
 
MauleSkinner said:
Only for a year. If he's planning on flying the airplane after the current annual expires, it doesn't.
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Get real,, we all know any aircraft out of annual is not airworthy.
Where do you get this sh--
 
MauleSkinner said:
A signature alone doesn't cut it.
Click to expand...
MauleSkinner said:
That's why people do prepurchase inspections, including a thorough review of logs
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If the context of your reply is that AP/IA you pick is more legal than the last AP/IA who signed off the annual then why do people use unknown (to them) AP/IAs to perform prebuys on aircraft across the country? Why not send "your" AP/IA to do the prebuy?
 
Tom-D said:
Get real,, we all know any aircraft out of annual is not airworthy.
Where do you get this sh--
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So you're saying that the IA who signed off the current annual didn't miss anything, and/or that you recommend buying airplanes without a prepurchase inspection or a review of the logs?
 
MauleSkinner said:
So you're saying that the IA who signed off the current annual didn't miss anything, and/or that you recommend buying airplanes without a prepurchase inspection or a review of the logs?
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This is a buyers market, buyer beware, you don't know enough about the product you are buying, you deserve what you get.
 
Bell206 said:
If the context of your reply is that AP/IA you pick is more legal than the last AP/IA who signed off the annual then why do people use unknown (to them) AP/IAs to perform prebuys on aircraft across the country? Why not send "your" AP/IA to do the prebuy?
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The context of my reply is that any IA is going to catch something that other IAs miss. That means it's going to cost money to make the airplane legal when the annual comes due, hence the often-used statement that the first annual after buying an airplane is one of the most expensive.

That's why my IA does prepurchase inspections on any airplane I buy.
 
Tom-D said:
This is a buyers market, buyer beware, you don't know enough about the product you are buying, you deserve what you get.
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So you're saying we agree that the buyer is responsible for determining condition of the airplane, and therefore the IA's signature means nothing.
 
N747JB said:
They were found, but the guy that owned it at the time refused to buy $30K for them from the owner in New Orleans.
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So the owner lost the logs, sold the plane, found the logs, and tried to recoup some of the money but at a kings ransom when he found them...

What a tool.... I can see a couple of grand, but $30K...?????
 
Mtns2Skies said:
How do you know that just because a plane has logs that everything in them is true? You don't, I know plenty of skywagon that have been crashed and repaired off the books even though they have logbooks.

I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand. Like any airplane a good prebuy will reveal all. I'm sure there are planes that have been immaculately maintained on paper that are complete junk and others that haven't seen an official annual in a decade that are golden.

Paperwork does not equal safety.
Click to expand...
Yeah true. But I’d rather take my chances of having incorrect logs than nothing at all for almost 3 decades. Atleast you’d have a place to start and could trace the history somewhat, even if the logs were incorrect.
 
MauleSkinner said:
That means it's going to cost money to make the airplane legal when the annual comes due
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You lost me. If the aircraft is flying now and in annual it is legal... correct? If we're talking about a pre-buy or the next annual doesn't mean the aircraft is not legal now. I guess I missed your point.
 
Tom-D said:
Get real,, we all know any aircraft out of annual is not airworthy.
Where do you get this sh--
Click to expand...

Only by definition, per the FAA. Airworthiness has nothing to do with whether the annual is current or not. Either the plane is fit to fly, or it is not. Legal? That's another matter.
 
N659HB said:
Only by definition, per the FAA. Airworthiness has nothing to do with whether the annual is current or not. Either the plane is fit to fly, or it is not. Legal? That's another matter.
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I guess 91.405 & 409 has nothing to do with it.
 
Tom-D said:
I guess 91.405 & 409 has nothing to do with it.
Click to expand...

As I said, legal is another matter. I fly my airplane the last day it's in annual, the next day it's not. Nothing has changed with the airplane. It's an arbitrary date.

I can't believe you're arguing in favor of the authority.
 
N659HB said:
As I said, legal is another matter. I fly my airplane the last day it's in annual, the next day it's not. Nothing has changed with the airplane. It's an arbitrary date.

I can't believe you're arguing in favor of the authority.
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So even tho the AWC is no longer valid because the terms and conditions have not been met you want to call it airworthy? I don't believe any ASI would agree.
 
N659HB said:
Airworthiness has nothing to do with whether the annual is current or not
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t
Not quite. Airworthiness is all the above. As a matter of fact there are two definitions of airworthy: one statutory and one regulatory. The law based definition requires the aircraft to meet Part 21, Part 43, and Part 91. And an aircraft without a valid annual per 91 is by definition not airworthy.
 
N659HB said:
I've heard some planes have been reconstructed from a data plate, sans any logs. But those are pretty rare birds.
Click to expand...

Unlikely to be any issue with life-limited components, ADs etc if you're starting with nothing but a data plate.
 
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