Missing engine log book during PPI on Lance

J

Jr Walker

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Jr Walker
I am currently in the process of a PPI on a 76' Lance and it came up missing an engine log book from the overhauled date in 96' until 05'. It has all other logs AF/E/P since new. Since I agreed to a purchase price based on being told all logs were present and ADs were met, and finding this missing log, what would be a reasonable devaluation in a percentage of value?

Airplane is clean, interior and exterior, NDH, clean AF logs, G430 WAAS, G796, passed all mechanical in PPI. Engine has 1475 SMOH with the first 900hrs of maintenance missing with no record of OH because of missing log.

What is a good % I should devalue AC for renegotiation?
 
Jr Walker said:
Engine has 1475 SMOH with the first 900hrs of maintenance missing with no record of OH because of missing log.
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Actually, the engine's TSMOH is unknown without the logs since you have no record of the supposed overhaul. I'd say a reasonable devaluation is the cost of an overhaul, including compliance with all AD's, which may or may not add to the overhaul cost, depending on what might have to be replaced.
 
Hard to calculate a price since you believe 900 hrs are missing,could be more. If you have no record of overhaul,I would also put he price of an overhaul into the equation.
 
The overhaul was more than 12 years anyway? So on that its over tbo anyway. The log go's with the engine so at the next engine replace with factory rebuild and viola" logs are all good. Can probably get another 1000 hrs out of engine.
 
I'd value the plane as if it had a run-out engine. He knew the logs were missing when he represented the plane to you. He was hiding that hoping you wouldn't discover it, or that you would ignore it at that point in the sale.

Maybe he will make a counter offer you can live with.

But if the deal falls through, I would attempt to get him to pay for the PPI since he knew about the missing logs previously. Use that in your negotiation to get him to come down on the price.
 
You have probably spent some money and time on the purchase, you might expect some room on the price. The seller also knows you spent time and money and might not want to lower the price much. Your problem is do you buy it or walk away. In a few years you might want to sell the plane and you will have the same problem of missing all the engine logs. Sometimes it's better to cut your loss and run, it's not like it is the only one for sale.
 
Thank you for all your input and advice, we are still in negotiation and believe the seller is willing to work with us to rectify the matter. The seller actually did not know the log was missing. He bought the plane while trusting what advice he was getting. The current owner is not a pilot but hires one to fly him to his house on the coast. The seller is just as surprised as we were to find out. The previous log stated they were removing the engine for overhaul but there is no proof the work was actually completed. All logs since 05' state SMOH and the math works out which makes me believe the logs were there at one point. The guy helping the seller is currently trying to recreate the log book. Any thoughts?
 
As a prospective buyer the only thing that matters is what it's worth to you. Rationalizing the seller's position should not be your concern.
 
Stewartb said:
As a prospective buyer the only thing that matters is what it's worth to you. Rationalizing the seller's position should not be your concern.
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yup....and sadly the missinformed seller is currently holding the bag. If it were me.....I'd take another $10-15K off the negotiated price (which should be fairly low considering the high time engine).....and/or walk.


obviously....calls to all mechanics or owner/operators since 2005 is the first step in re-acquiring the engine logs. :rolleyes2:

by chance, was the prop replaced since the engine logs went missing? :eek:
 
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I'd presume the engine is WAY run out.

So the seller didn't know his current engine log was missing....yeah
 
James331 said:
I'd presume the engine is WAY run out.

So the seller didn't know his current engine log was missing....yeah
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I looked at a 421 with the same situation, the owner bought it using his pilot's advice and when he got ready to sell it, the first 20 years of log books were missing!:yikes: The poor owner really didn't have a clue, and I really think the pilot was more a part of the buying process than the poor owner knew! :mad2:
 
It's a 1400+ hour engine, it should be priced pretty near run out anyway, but I wouldn't let the log book issue hold me back if it's an otherwise nice airplane. ;)

Checkout_my_Six said:
yup....and sadly the missinformed seller is currently holding the bag. If it were me.....I'd take another $10-15K off the negotiated price (which should be fairly low considering the high time engine).....and/or walk.


obviously....calls to all mechanics or owner/operators since 2005 is the first step in re-acquiring the engine logs. :rolleyes2:

by chance, was the prop replaced since the engine logs went missing? :eek:
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You have absolutely no record of overhaul. You are not responsible for the previous owner's goof-up. It's all on him.

Price it as if it has a run-out engine, which is just as likely as not. Who's to say a previous owner didn't ditch the logs and pick an arbitrary time to start the new ones?:dunno:

If he doesn't like your offer, too bad. It's not like there aren't a zillion other similar aircraft out there. It's your money UNTIL you fork it over.
 
The engine value is now core value. Calculate your deduction by finding the core value and the overhaul value and subtracting, then dividing by 75% TBO to determine the hourly cost figure and multiply that by the hours that were remaining on the engine to TBO.

That gives you a fair adjustment of the plane's market value to take into consideration the missing log.
 
Henning said:
The engine value is now core value. Calculate your deduction by finding the core value and the overhaul value and subtracting, then dividing by 75% TBO to determine the hourly cost figure and multiply that by the hours that were remaining on the engine to TBO.

That gives you a fair adjustment of the plane's market value to take into consideration the missing log.
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:yeahthat:

This gives you value. That's not to say that you have to stand firm on this, there's some amount on the value that you might be willing to give up to get to a deal. The 500 hrs until TBO +/- that is left on the engine is worth something in the neighborhood of 10k?

How much of that are you willing to take on to get to a deal? Remember that if you give dollars back, you're also taking on the risk of the engine...you get a double whammy for ever dollar you give up.

My thinking would be that assuming 500 engine hours is worth 10k, you might give up 2-3k due to the log book. That equates to thinking you'll get at least 100-150 hours out of the engine before you have to overhaul it yourself. If that's a comfortable risk, then you're god...
 
I appreciate the rational equations on figuring out the actual value and making an offer based on reality. We are test flying the airplane tomorrow and if all goes well then I have a figure in mind that will be my number. Remembering the PPI went well with compression over 74 on all cylinders and no metal in filter. I feel pretty good with the decision I'm about to make. Again, I want to thank everyone for there advice and I'll get back on tomorrow and let you know how it goes
 
Jr Walker said:
I appreciate the rational equations on figuring out the actual value and making an offer based on reality. We are test flying the airplane tomorrow and if all goes well then I have a figure in mind that will be my number. Remembering the PPI went well with compression over 74 on all cylinders and no metal in filter. I feel pretty good with the decision I'm about to make. Again, I want to thank everyone for there advice and I'll get back on tomorrow and let you know how it goes
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Just remember, once you pay for the airplane, you own the problem. I GUARANTEE you the current owner knows it is a documentation problem, and knows there should be a big hit to value for missing logs on a current engine. If you choose not to let him take that hit, well.....
 
Does the current owner know who supposedly did the overhaul? Will that shop verify and stand behind their work? Were they paid, or are they maybe holding the logs until they get paid.
 
I had a 172 about 10 years back with the same type deal. The engine log that showed the overhaul was missing. We had pictures with dates of the engine torn down, that was it. We sold the airplane for top dollar and the new owner did not care at all about the missing log. He was a guy that had been around aviation forever, not just a dumb kid getting started.
 
pigpenracing said:
I had a 172 about 10 years back with the same type deal. The engine log that showed the overhaul was missing. We had pictures with dates of the engine torn down, that was it. We sold the airplane for top dollar and the new owner did not care at all about the missing log. He was a guy that had been around aviation forever, not just a dumb kid getting started.
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Not my point. He may well have been perfectly comfortable. I'm talking about when it is OP's turn to sell. He will need to find someone else willing to handwave it away, or take the hit on resale. Why not make the current seller take the hit? Buy the plane with a damage history discount, then you protect yourself from taking that same hit at resale.

Now if this is the last plane he is ever gonna own, or he knows he will be OHing the engine anyway, no big deal. I would still extract a discount for the missing logs, because it would be easy enough to find a comparable Lance with clean logs.
 
N747JB said:
It's a 1400+ hour engine, it should be priced pretty near run out anyway, ...
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It's worse than run-out. Many engine AD's cannot be verified in the absence of full records since it left the factory without taking the engine apart. Was this done?
 
pigpenracing said:
I had a 172 about 10 years back with the same type deal. The engine log that showed the overhaul was missing. We had pictures with dates of the engine torn down, that was it. We sold the airplane for top dollar and the new owner did not care at all about the missing log. He was a guy that had been around aviation forever, not just a dumb kid getting started.
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Not a dumb kid, but a dumb guy that has been around aviation forever.

Missing a old log book ain't that big of a deal, missing the current overhauls logbook, even with photo montage of the overhaul, it's still turns the engine any any engine parts not in the airframe log into mearly a core, and you'd be a fool to pay top dollar for a airframe and engine core, especially in a 172.
 
Ron Levy said:
It's worse than run-out. Many engine AD's cannot be verified in the absence of full records since it left the factory without taking the engine apart. Was this done?
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Good point. I would want to be sure I have a local shop willing to annual that plane (ideally the one that does the PPI).
Long ago, I bought a 172 at a what I thought was a bargain price. It flew well, compressions and oil consumption were good, but when it was time for its annual, my local shop refused to take it since they discovered some pages were missing from the engine logbook. I had to find a shop far away to finally get it annualed. Won't make that mistake again. :(
 
all comes down to the buyer and thier airplane buying accumen for the seller...Id say you have a good rip here at least 60% of an overhaul
 
Henning said:
If you value it as a core, and it is running, it is irrelevant.
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No, what I'm trying to say is that perhaps a new engine was put onto the plane when the new logbook begins and the old logbook went with the old engine. Engine logbook stays with the engine, not the plane. My plane, for example, has a different engine time, airframe time, and tach time because all started at different times.
 
ahkahn said:
No, what I'm trying to say is that perhaps a new engine was put onto the plane when the new logbook begins and the old logbook went with the old engine. Engine logbook stays with the engine, not the plane. My plane, for example, has a different engine time, airframe time, and tach time because all started at different times.
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Mmmm, not what I was reading above. Even when you swap out an engine, the log book for that engine from the point of New (or Factory Reman) will go with the engine. That is why engines typically have their own logs. The only way to reset the clock and lose the books without 'coring' the engine value is through a factory reman.
 
Henning said:
Mmmm, not what I was reading above. Even when you swap out an engine, the log book for that engine from the point of New (or Factory Reman) will go with the engine. That is why engines typically have their own logs. The only way to reset the clock and lose the books without 'coring' the engine value is through a factory reman.
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Right, that's what I'm trying to say. Maybe I'm not understanding the whole story here, but my question was that if engine "A" lived in the plane from 1991 until 2005, and then they got it replaced with engine "B" (new, factory reman, etc) then engine "A"'s logbook would be missing (gone with engine "A") and engine "B"'s logbook from 2005-on would be with the plane.
 
ahkahn said:
Right, that's what I'm trying to say. Maybe I'm not understanding the whole story here, but my question was that if engine "A" lived in the plane from 1991 until 2005, and then they got it replaced with engine "B" (new, factory reman, etc) then engine "A"'s logbook would be missing (gone with engine "A") and engine "B"'s logbook from 2005-on would be with the plane.
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But if engine B were there, then it would have all the logs to the beginning of engine B. What I was reading is there is no initial log for the engine that is currently in the plane. Whatever is in the plane needs to have the logs from new or SFRM.
 
Henning said:
But if engine B were there, then it would have all the logs to the beginning of engine B. What I was reading is there is no initial log for the engine that is currently in the plane. Whatever is in the plane needs to have the logs from new or SFRM.
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Ahh... ok. That was what I was wondering was if they had logs from the beginning of that engine.
 
ahkahn said:
Ahh... ok. That was what I was wondering was if they had logs from the beginning of that engine.
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I'm not 100% positive clear on it, but that's the way I read it, the beginning logs of this engine are missing as well as the documentation of the overhaul.
 
I just told this buyer about a very nice Lance my neighbor has been talking about selling. Problem solved!
 
pigpenracing said:
I just told this buyer about a very nice Lance my neighbor has been talking about selling. Problem solved!
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The other guy may be better off buying a Factory "0 time" overhaul with a new log. The market is bad enough people can afford to be picky.
 
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