Military Compentency for CFI

RotorAndWing

RotorAndWing

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Rotor&Wing
For those who served in the military as an IP at one time you may be interested in this Order as it will allow you to gain a CFI or CFII based upon your experience.

[FONT=Default Sans Serif,Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]N 8900.97 -- New Section 61.73(g) That Allows Current and Former U.S. Military Instructor Pilots to Apply for an FAA Flight Instructor Certificate

http://fsims.faa.gov/wdocs/notices/n8900_97.htm


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Thanks.. one of our club members (F-15 IP) is looking at this option.
CFI MEI Instrument Airplane would work, but not CFI Single Engine or Glider.
 
Boy oh boy. My old Mil IP needed FOI badly, and now he doesn't need it at all.....FOI is a bunch of BS if you have instructional skills, but if you don't.......OMG.
 
dmccormack said:
I'm not entirely convinced this is a good idea, especially after flying in a T182RG with a retired F-15 EWO.

:eek:
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EWO's aren't F-15 pilots, they are Navigators. DRASTICALLY different training.

I was unsure if it is a good idea to start with. I can instruct just fine in the F-15, but how does that relate to landing a C-150? It seems to me that the FAA is acknowledging the instructor skills, but I'm glad that there is still a checkout required before instructing in a GA aircraft. I do think it was silly to have to go through all the hoops for a CFII rating if you have been instructing all that and more in a different aircraft.
 
EvilEagle said:
EWO's aren't F-15 pilots, they are Navigators. DRASTICALLY different training.

I was unsure if it is a good idea to start with. I can instruct just fine in the F-15, but how does that relate to landing a C-150? It seems to me that the FAA is acknowledging the instructor skills, but I'm glad that there is still a checkout required before instructing in a GA aircraft. I do think it was silly to have to go through all the hoops for a CFII rating if you have been instructing all that and more in a different aircraft.
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I know. But EWOS fly (ask any EWO :D)

The Military instructional environment is very different from civilian and must be understood (I retired after 21 years, but also taught High School -- lots of parallels, but not equivalent).

I think a check of competency in lower powered, SEL airplanes before signing off to take up students is a Very Good Thing.
 
dmccormack said:
I think a check of competency in lower powered, SEL airplanes before signing off to take up students is a Very Good Thing.
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If I read the rules right, an F-16 RTU IP who is a graduate of a formal instructor course wouldn't need that check to get an ASE rating on a military competency CFI certificate issuance. And I don't think that is good.
 
Ron Levy said:
If I read the rules right, an F-16 RTU IP who is a graduate of a formal instructor course wouldn't need that check to get an ASE rating on a military competency CFI certificate issuance. And I don't think that is good.
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Yeah -- not ideal, certainly, but I guess the FAA is assuming the former IP will do the right thing and get some time in bugsmashers before hanging out the Learn to Fly shingle.

:dunno:
 
Ron Levy said:
If I read the rules right, an F-16 RTU IP who is a graduate of a formal instructor course wouldn't need that check to get an ASE rating on a military competency CFI certificate issuance. And I don't think that is good.
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We deal with jet jockies all the time that have no idea or clue of what their feet are for. :yikes:

And yes.. I believe you have read the rules correctly.

Also.. the F-16 pilot can fly ASE and the F-15 driver gets AME Centerline thrust limitation and cannot fly ASE.

And they have no idea of Torque or P-factor and a lot of other things.
 
BillTIZ said:
We deal with jet jockies all the time that have no idea or clue of what their feet are for. :yikes:

And yes.. I believe you have read the rules correctly.

Also.. the F-16 pilot can fly ASE and the F-15 driver gets AME Centerline thrust limitation and cannot fly ASE.

And they have no idea of Torque or P-factor and a lot of other things.
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I hope that there aren't too many guys making us all look bad. If they don't use their feet, they must not be an F-15C guy - we use rudder A LOT in dogfights, so it becomes very natural. I have to be sure not to over-use it when I'm in the Glasair on the way home.

From the way I read these posts, I think I should wait to take the test. Right now I'm an F-15 pilot and in a few months, I'm going to PIT to be a T-6 instructor, so after that I should be good for single and multi, right? (with the centerline thrust restriction).
 
Rotor&Wing said:
Sure they do, just like the NFO's. Heck, they even get to fly the aircraft doing advanced tactical maneuvers. Just ask them. :rolleyes:
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I think you need to learn a bit more about that. The only NFO's who get stick time are CO-TAC's in S-3's, since there are no sticks at the NFO seat in other Navy aircraft. Also, most USAF EWO's don't get stick time either, since they don't occupy control stations in B-52's or EA-6B's (or previously in the EF-111, which has no stick in the right seat). Only those EWO's who flew Weasels (F-4G/F-105G) had a stick.
 
Ron Levy said:
I think you need to learn a bit more about that. The only NFO's who get stick time are CO-TAC's in S-3's, since there are no sticks at the NFO seat in other Navy aircraft. Also, most USAF EWO's don't get stick time either, since they don't occupy control stations in B-52's or EA-6B's (or previously in the EF-111, which has no stick in the right seat). Only those EWO's who flew Weasels (F-4G/F-105G) had a stick.
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I'm fully aware of what each airplane had for controls, my post was in jest.

It was referring to another board where someone who was once a EWO was claiming pilot time doing high speed tactical maneuvers.
 
EvilEagle said:
I hope that there aren't too many guys making us all look bad. If they don't use their feet, they must not be an F-15C guy - we use rudder A LOT in dogfights, so it becomes very natural. I have to be sure not to over-use it when I'm in the Glasair on the way home.

From the way I read these posts, I think I should wait to take the test. Right now I'm an F-15 pilot and in a few months, I'm going to PIT to be a T-6 instructor, so after that I should be good for single and multi, right? (with the centerline thrust restriction).
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If your AF Form8s (are they still called Form8?) are F-15C and IFR checks, then yes.. you should get a Commercial ME(Centerline Thrust) and Instrument Airplane Certificate and Ratings.

If you are not Instructor qualified in the F-15C, then you would not get the MEI.
If you are Instructor qual'd in the -15, then yes, MEI and CFII.

When you get your T-6 IP endorsement, then yes, Commercial SE and CFI-A and CFII?
 
BillTIZ said:
If your AF Form8s (are they still called Form8?) are F-15C and IFR checks, then yes.. you should get a Commercial ME(Centerline Thrust) and Instrument Airplane Certificate and Ratings.

If you are not Instructor qualified in the F-15C, then you would not get the MEI.
If you are Instructor qual'd in the -15, then yes, MEI and CFII.

When you get your T-6 IP endorsement, then yes, Commercial SE and CFI-A and CFII?
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Yep, been an Eagle IP for about 6 years now. My question I guess is about timing - should I go on and get my Mil Comp CFI test done now or wait till I get the T-6 IP qual?
 
EvilEagle said:
Yep, been an Eagle IP for about 6 years now. My question I guess is about timing - should I go on and get my Mil Comp CFI test done now or wait till I get the T-6 IP qual?
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Can't answer that one for you.
One of our glider club members wants to do the Mil Comp thing. He's -15s, but I'm not sure if he's light gray or dark gray.

So he can get the Comm AMEL Centerline and MEI, Intrument Instructor
But he'd have to do the Comm ASEL check, an ME check to ditch the centerline restriction, A Comm Glider Check and Glider CFI Check with local DPEs.

The Mil Comp is not saving him that much.
 
EvilEagle said:
Yep, been an Eagle IP for about 6 years now.
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I don't think the FAA will issue a CFI-AME based on a CLT aircraft. The CFI PTS requires that the aircraft provided be able to perform all required tasks, and for the AME rating, one required task is the Vmc demo. Unless there are special provisions for a CLT-limited CFI-AME rating in the new paragraphs cited in the notice posted by R&W (and they aren't in FSIMS as of today), I don't think you'll be able to get your CFI ticket until you become an IP in either a non-CLT airplane (to get the AME rating) or a single engine airplane (to get the ASE rating). The only thing I see possible is to get a CFI with only an IA rating, but that doesn't let you do any flight training by itself without a category/class rating to go with it.
 
Rotor&Wing said:
The public access version of FSIMS (what you read) is different from the version that FAA employees have on their desktops.

And yes it's in our FSIMS.
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Would you care to share that with us, or otherwise answer the question about military IP's only qualified in CLT aircraft?
 
Ron Levy said:
I don't think the FAA will issue a CFI-AME based on a CLT aircraft. The CFI PTS requires that the aircraft provided be able to perform all required tasks, and for the AME rating, one required task is the Vmc demo. Unless there are special provisions for a CLT-limited CFI-AME rating in the new paragraphs cited in the notice posted by R&W (and they aren't in FSIMS as of today), I don't think you'll be able to get your CFI ticket until you become an IP in either a non-CLT airplane (to get the AME rating) or a single engine airplane (to get the ASE rating). The only thing I see possible is to get a CFI with only an IA rating, but that doesn't let you do any flight training by itself without a category/class rating to go with it.
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After rereading everything Ron is correct with the above statement. If anyone is interested in investigating this further the notice does give a point of contact:

Direct questions concerning this notice to John D. Lynch, Certification and General Aviation Operations Branch (AFS–810), at (202) 267–3844; e-mail: john.d.lynch@faa.gov.


Make sure you reference Notice N 8900.97
 
Rotor&Wing said:
After rereading everything Ron is correct with the above statement. If anyone is interested in investigating this further the notice does give a point of contact:

Direct questions concerning this notice to John D. Lynch, Certification and General Aviation Operations Branch (AFS–810), at (202) 267–3844; e-mail: john.d.lynch@faa.gov.
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Might be hard to do since John retired January 1st.
 
Finally got an answer from AFS-810. The notice is incorrect -- those military IP's whose only ME instructor qual is in a CLT airplane will not get AME ratings on their military competency-based CFI tickets. Any CFI-AME (limited to CLT) certificates already issued on the basis of that notice are being cancelled. Thus, EvilEagle can get only a CFI-IA based on his F-15 IP status, and will add only an ASE rating when he gets his T-6 IP qual. The only way for a military IP to get a CFI-AME without taking a CFI practical test in a non-CLT ME aircraft will be to show qualification as an IP on an aircraft with a Vmc (see list below for those that don't qualify). T-1 IP's will be OK since the Beechjet 400 has a Vmc.

OTOH, the FAA isn't going to make a thing over feathering, so a military ME IP who's never feathered an engine (e.g., T-41 for screening, T-6 and T-1 in UPT, C-9 operationally and IP qual'd) will be able to get a CFI-AME. AFS-810 knows that may not make sense, but that's the way they're doing it.

a) T-2B/C Rockwell Buckeye.
b) T-37 Cessna 318.
c) T-38 Northrop Talon.
d) F-4 McDonnell-Douglas Phantom.
e) F-111 General Dynamics F-111.
f) F-18 Northrop-McDonnell-Douglas Hornet.
g) A6-E Grumman American Intruder.
h) A-10 Fairchild Republic Thunderbolt II.
i) F-15 McDonnell-Douglas Eagle.
j) F-14 Grumman F-14.
k) F-117 Lockheed Stealth.
l) F-22 Boeing/McDonnell F-22.
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Not sure where you got your "information" from but it's not all correct. The 227 certificates already issued will not be cancelled.

However they will not be able to renew unless they add a AMEL rating to their certificate.
 
Well, AFS-800 sent me a memo this morning explaining the program. No cancelling the previous issued certificates.
 
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Rotor&Wing said:
Well, AFS-800 sent me a memo this morning explaining the program. No cancelling the previous issued certificates.
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Seems things changed from when I spoke to the author of that memo on the 8th and when it went out on the 10th, and they're not going to cancel those inappropriate certificates after all. Thanks to R&W for that information. But the memo confirms the rest of the information I received and posted. Only thing not clear is whether those 227 folks will be allowed to give training in C-337's in the interim; I suspect not.
 
Ron Levy said:
Seems things changed from when I spoke to the author of that memo on the 8th and when it went out on the 10th, and they're not going to cancel those inappropriate certificates after all. Thanks to R&W for that information. But the memo confirms the rest of the information I received and posted. Only thing not clear is whether those 227 folks will be allowed to give training in C-337's in the interim; I suspect not.
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The "fix" is relatively simple for the 227 involved. There are reasons the FAA would not rescind those issued certificates which I will not go into here. (think process)

They admitted they screwed up and the fix is not difficult considering the benefit gained.

As far as teaching in a 337, I don't see why not, but that's above my pay grade. :dunno:
 
Could you explain the rolled eyes? I admit to the ignorance of a single-engine-only pilot but isn't flight with the critical engine inop the only =real= operational difference between a single and a twin to begin with?
 
midlifeflyer said:
Could you explain the rolled eyes? I admit to the ignorance of a single-engine-only pilot but isn't flight with the critical engine inop the only =real= operational difference between a single and a twin to begin with?
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Yes, but the critical skill is to recognize the initial power loss and deal with it which 95% of the time will be done without actually feathering the engine (using a 'zero thrust' setting that may or may not deliver zero thrust).
The feathering itself doesn't require a lot of training (pull this lever here:wink2:).
 
weilke said:
Yes, but the critical skill is to recognize the initial power loss and deal with it which 95% of the time will be done without actually feathering the engine (using a 'zero thrust' setting that may or may not deliver zero thrust).
The feathering itself doesn't require a lot of training (pull this lever here:wink2:).
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There's also the unfeather/restart, which don't always go as planned. Further, the aircraft in which most of these military IP's have their experience have far more capability with one engine out than a piston-powered light twin, and they may be rather startled by the lack of performance when they pull one in a 337.
 
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