Mikhail Kalashnikov Dies At 94

I was specifically referring to the Poodle Shooter.

McNamara pushed very strongly for this, and one of his reasons was the faulty idea that wounding an enemy solder would take 3 out of the fight, as his buddies took him for medical aid. The was written into DOD doctrine in 1963, after the first tests of the Poodle Shooter in RVN, as a way of trying to make the 7.62 less desirable IN LIGHT OF DOCTRINE. That doctrine has never been corrected -- yet the M240 (firing the 7.62 and replacing the M60) is considered a superior weapon, according to that same doctrine.

While there are some practical reasons for liking the M16 series, the wounding idea just never made sense, because generally when someone gets shot, their buddies deal with it after the shooting is over.

The 5.56 is a good round in a narrow range of circumstances. The 7.62 that it replaced is a better round in more circumstances. The AK round falls somewhere between the two.
 
weilke said:
The US adheres to the Hague convention of 1899 that outlaws the use of hollow-point and other expanding bullets in international warfare. I don't think McNamaras parents had met yet when the US became a signatory to the convention.
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The ban on expanding bullets is to prevent unnecessary suffering. It has nothing to do with lethality. Note that secondary missiles from fragmentation weapons are specifically exempted from the ban.
 
Well if it's unnecessary suffering we are worried about, just fire a 105mm Howitzer, point blank, at every enemy combatant -- and they'll never know what hit them.

War is hell. Never seen anyone volunteer to be shot with any caliber.
 
If people went by the ten commandments, we wouldn't need guns.
 
RotorAndWing said:
I own a Norinco AK-47 (stamped receiver, 7.62) with a fiber force stock and several 30 round clips.

For short range it's acceptable in accuracy (20 to 200 yards). It's also extremely reliable.

If I need long range accuracy I also have an Armalite AR-30. :D
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Clips? Why? 30 round magazines, that I can understand. I know, picky, picky, picky. :D
 
Eugene Stoner was a brilliant man. Why he ever decided to go with a gas-impingement action is still a mystery to me. The piston action is clearly the better choice and Kalashnikov saw this.

You want the latest greatest from the deepest part of the SpecOps world - check out the PTR-32. Shoots 7.62X39 from AK mags from an H&K receiver. If you're deep in Indian Country sure is nice to be able to self re-supply from the bad guys you shoot along the way.
 

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denverpilot said:
And... the Economist gets the retard award of the day for using the term "assault rifle".
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"Assault rifle" is an accurate and valid term. The AK fits the criteria (sub-power round, selective-fire, compact and lightweight). The FN-FAL referenced in the article (also as an "assault rifle") does NOT.

"Assault WEAPON" is the meaningless, arbitrary term, coined by hoplophobes to describe pretty much anything that isn't a sharp stick.
 
SoloEqs said:
"Assault rifle" is an accurate and valid term. The AK fits the criteria (sub-power round, selective-fire, compact and lightweight). The FN-FAL referenced in the article (also as an "assault rifle") does NOT.

"Assault WEAPON" is the meaningless, arbitrary term, coined by hoplophobes to describe pretty much anything that isn't a sharp stick.
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I just drop the assault altogether. People assault. Guns don't. That or we need special labeling for assault cars, assault knives, assault baseball bats...

As far as gas impingement vs piston goes, that's why my AR "style" rifle has a piston. ;) I say "style" since it's no longer an AR once that change is made, but for all intents and purposes, it's just an AR that operates better. :)
 
denverpilot said:
I just drop the assault altogether. People assault. Guns don't. That or we need special labeling for assault cars, assault knives, assault baseball bats...
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Semantics, I guess. It's like the term "Stormtrooper". Until Star Wars, most people associated it with the Nazis and WWII, but the Germans actually used the term back in The Great War. They were troops specifically trained in assaulting enemy trench systems.

SoloEqs posted the formal definition for "Assault Rifle," but I figure today, it's just a meaningless term. Other than sniper systems, most militaries are probably armed with weapons meeting the definition, despite not being specifically-trained attack troops.

Ron Wanttaja
 
I don't think it's right to point at the Economist for use of the term. There was just a huge story about the use of the term and how it is defining law on Dateline. There are good arguments pointing out both sides. Those who are pro-gun rights don't like it. I can understand the frustration because of the current situation that surrounds it. But manufacturers themselves use the term as well, and they are being advised to stop by...well, yeah, you already know who.

That term sure doesn't help a pro-gun rights case in the public or in Washington. But that doesn't mean that the definition isn't correct or accurate. If you look around at the definition of the term, well...it fits. Webster is just one example.

Until there is enough push and success in getting the definition as we know it changed, I don't think that pointing out one media source for using it is a fair accusation especially from a foreign newspaper that uses a different form of English.
 
The only folk who assault with so-called assault weapons are law enforcement, military, and criminals. Things that make you go, hmmmmm.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
SoloEqs said:
I was specifically referring to the Poodle Shooter.

McNamara pushed very strongly for this, and one of his reasons was the faulty idea that wounding an enemy solder would take 3 out of the fight, as his buddies took him for medical aid. The was written into DOD doctrine in 1963, after the first tests of the Poodle Shooter in RVN, as a way of trying to make the 7.62 less desirable IN LIGHT OF DOCTRINE. That doctrine has never been corrected -- yet the M240 (firing the 7.62 and replacing the M60) is considered a superior weapon, according to that same doctrine.

While there are some practical reasons for liking the M16 series, the wounding idea just never made sense, because generally when someone gets shot, their buddies deal with it after the shooting is over.

The 5.56 is a good round in a narrow range of circumstances. The 7.62 that it replaced is a better round in more circumstances. The AK round falls somewhere between the two.
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I took Army Basic Combat Training at Ft Jackson in 1970. I specifically remember the statement that a kill takes out one soldier, a wound takes out 3.
 
The term "Assault Rifle" is absolutely correct. The term "Assault Weapon" is for wankers.

During WWII, the Germans were so impressed with the American M-1 Carbine, that they decided that they needed something like that for themselves. However they were concerned that the gun they came up with was smaller and fired a smaller, less powerful round than the standard issue rifle of the day. In a time when Hitler was calling for "Wonder Weapons", they thought it best for job security, to officially call the new weapon a machine pistol rather than a rifle and so the official name of the new firearm was MP-43.

The day came when Hitler was called to approve the new gun and he was very impressed. He loved it. It was Hitler himself that named it the "Sturmgewehr", or Assault Rifle. When the new rifle made it to production, it's name was changed to Stg 44, or Sturmgewehr 44 for Assault Rifle, acceptance 1944.

On the battle field, the Allies too were very impressed, but it was the Russians that were first to copy the concept. Perhaps because they bore the brunt of it's punishment during the fight for victory. Below is the Stg 44. Look familiar?

800px-Sturmgewehr_44.jpg



Anyhow, like it or not, Hitler named the Assault Rifle just as he did the Volkswagen. It is correct and it is a pretty good description of what the weapon is designed to do. Live with it.
 
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Dav8or said:
Anyhow, like it or not, Hitler named the Assault Rifle just as he did the Volkswagen. It is correct and it is a pretty good description of what the weapon is designed to do. Live with it.
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Well said.
 
denverpilot said:
The only folk who assault with so-called assault weapons are law enforcement, military, and criminals.
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For now.

Who knows when a citizenry might be called upon to use "assault" as a tactic.

Think "Red Dawn". Or, at the risk of a Godwin, the resistance movements of WWII. Instead of "Liberator" pistols, imagine these weapons in the hands of the beleaguered resistance fighters in the Warsaw ghetto. Or the French partisans. Or whomever.

I don't expect that need will ever arise in the US, but remember Santayana's words: "Those who do not remember the past are doomed to repeat it."
 
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Dav8or said:
The term "Assault Rifle" is absolutely correct. The term "Assault Weapon" is for wankers.

During WWII, the Germans were so impressed with the American M-1 Carbine, that they decided that they needed something like that for themselves. However they were concerned that the gun they came up with was smaller and fired a smaller, less powerful round than the standard issue rifle of the day. In a time when Hitler was calling for "Wonder Weapons", they thought it best for job security, to officially call the new weapon a machine pistol rather than a rifle and so the official name of the new firearm was MP-43.

The day came when Hitler was called to approve the new gun and he was very impressed. He loved it. It was Hitler himself that named it the "Sturmgewehr", or Assault Rifle. When the new rifle made it to production, it's name was changed to Stg 44, or Sturmgewehr 44 for Assault Rifle, acceptance 1944.

On the battle field, the Allies too were very impressed, but it was the Russians that were first to copy the concept. Perhaps because they bore the brunt of it's punishment during the fight for victory. Below is the Stg 44. Look familiar?

800px-Sturmgewehr_44.jpg



Anyhow, like it or not, Hitler named the Assault Rifle just as he did the Volkswagen. It is correct and it is a pretty good description of what the weapon is designed to do. Live with it.
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Gewar is something that does harm, a weapon. Shiesgewar (can't find the character for correct spelling) is a gun, so Sturmgewar does literally translate into assault weapon.
 
Henning said:
Gewar is something that does harm, a weapon. Shiesgewar (can't find the character for correct spelling) is a gun, so Sturmgewar does literally translate into assault weapon.
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Buchse (should have an umlaut over the U, but I don't know how to do that) is the word for gun. It can also mean shotgun, rifle, box, tin and bushing. German is a funny complex language like English. Gewehr is the commonly accepted word for rifle in German. It may also mean weapon. However, when Hilter used the word Sturmgewehr, he meant rifle, not weapon, or so history tells us.
 
Old Geek said:
For reference, Calguns did a flowchart that lets you identify whether a rifle is considered to be an "assault rifle" in California:

http://www.webshooters.org/images/CA_AW_Flowchart_Ver11b_2010_SideA.PNG
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That is a great little chart to illustrate the insanity in California. Now we are supposed to get rid of all our magazines over 10 rounds by May too. I predict very soon California is going to have a great deal of new criminals on their hands come June.:mad2:

The good news is, after June, California should become one of the safest states in the union.:rolleyes2:
 
California is doing a great job being the shining example of the uselessness of firearms laws being pushed elsewhere.
 
denverpilot said:
California is doing a great job being the shining example of the uselessness of firearms laws being pushed elsewhere.
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Well, you see, our gun laws would be very effective... if we just had more of them!! If it weren't for the mean, obstructionist, NRA type Republicans, we could properly legislate to our heart's content. We would all be so safe and well off. We would be a shining example of Shangri-La!

Good thing is, our laws are coming to a theater near you! I'm looking at you too Texas! Soon with help from our good friends in New York and Illinois, the whole nation will know safety and tranquility. :goofy:



Rrrrrr...:nonod::mad2:
 
Old Geek said:
I took Army Basic Combat Training at Ft Jackson in 1970. I specifically remember the statement that a kill takes out one soldier, a wound takes out 3.
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What you DON'T remember is being told that YOU should stop shooting and drag your buddy away. I can't imagine any battlefield commander who would permit this. He's already lost ONE gun, can he afford to lose two more?

If WE don't do it, who would believe that the enemy might?

This is why they send NON-COMBATANT medics and corpsmen out with the troops. They move around on the battlefield, doing what they can to keep the wounded alive until the battle is over and they can be evacuated.
 
SoloEqs said:
Way too complicated.

All they really need to ask is "does it frighten Dianne Feinstein?"
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A paper bag or someone saying 'boo' frightens Diane Feinstein.
 
'Sturm' is literally translated 'storm'. In military usage of the day it slso denoted the act of taking something, e.g. an enemy position or fortification.
'Gewehr' is simply a rifle, both for military or civilian usage.
Outside of the austrian armed forces, 'Sturmgewehr' is not really an expression commonly used today. A select fire rifle used by a individual soldier would commonly be referred to as Gewehr.
A automatic weapon firing rifle caliber ammunition (5.56 7.62 12.7) is referred to as 'maschinengewehr' or MG.
An automatc weapon firing anything from 20mm on up would commonly be referred to as maschinenkanone (on an APC) or bordkanone (if on a plane or boat)
A select fire weapon firing pistol caliber munition Is referred to as maschinenpistole (e.g. an Uzi or MP5).

The definitions at times dont have a 1:1 mapping to their american counterparts. Any east block military long gun would be referred to as 'Kalashnikov' whether it is an AKM, AK74 or any of the other variants.
 
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