poadeleted20
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...but still governed by Part 91.
midfield flyover and tiny wind socks
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jesse
Touchdown! Greaser!
There are other ways to have the same information. At the end of the day you're merging into the same pattern as the 91 world so having the information is a safety benefit.
How do you know if the pattern is left traffic or right traffic? Without the afd you have no idea what TPA traffic will be at or which direction the pattern is. Seems like a safety issue. How are you determining which frequency the pilot controlled lighting is on?
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jaybee
Cleared for Takeoff
Are not all 121 operations conducted under IFR flight plans?
How does being 121 absolve you of 91.103?
poadeleted20
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Not all.
Captain
Final Approach
Left or right traffic? Well, I'm usually well outside the traffic pattern, but I usually try to just shoot for the straight in. If I can't because I'm approaching from the downwind side or there is conflicting traffic then I'll join whatever pattern the locals are flying. Jepps do often put a note for non-standard traffic (right) on the airport diagram so if it's listed as right I'll fly right...otherwise it's left.
Pilot controlled lighting is the CTAF freq unless otherwise noted on the 10-9 page (Jepp airport diagram). In my entire pilot career I have never...not once...ever ever ever seen a separate frequency to turn on the lights besides CTAF. Not saying one doesn't exist somewhere, but I've never been there at night...and I've been to some crazy small places. Places with no lights (Day VFR of course), Ranchers hunting runways that are nothing more than a strip of asphalt in the guys property. (to find it we entered a Lat/Long in the FMS...flew there and looked down. sure enough there was a long thing that looked safe to land on), to islands where the runway was just a straight spot of the road the went down the length of the island. (I wasn't going to land but then I saw another plane parked on the side of the 'road' and figured, "well, I guess that IS it."
These are all things that everyone I've ever flown with for the past decade or so would agree with me by the way. It just is what it is. I'm not sure if you're just asking because you're curious or because you're trying to take a stab at me for being not safe or something. (I've seen a bit of that lately here...) But I assure you I am well inside safe operations for what I do. In fact, I'm here in this forum. Most professional pilots aren't. They show up to do their job and go home and don't think about aviation until the next tour. I'm sort of a dork in that I seek this stuff out even on my days off.
I understand when you're a CFI it's all consuming and the way you teach is gospel, but when you get on the line with a company it's just different. Things you thought were holy turn out to not apply. Nobody does a GUMPS check. Everybody flies approaches with power and they are stabilized (with power). We don't have A/FDs. I'm not trying to trash GA. I'm not. I'm just saying it's different. We do have to mix at airports and that's where the professionalism of the GA fleet comes through. I can honestly say that as a professional pilot I've NEVER had a GA pilot screw it up for me. I've had to go around on short final before...but it's always been for an AirFrance B777 who dilly daly's on the takeoff roll, or ATC just mismanaged the spacing (it happens, no animosity) or deer on the runway or whatever. It's never been because some GA guy was clueless and just taxied right out on to the runway or whatever.
Point is, I'm not looking down my nose at GA. I think the GA community in this country does an outstanding job.
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Captain
Final Approach
jaybee
Cleared for Takeoff
jesse
Touchdown! Greaser!
It'd just depend on if Jepp always does. If they don't you're missing out on some pretty useful information.
I run into them all the time. Ames, IA (KAMW) for example CTAF is 122.7, lights are 126.0. Is that reflected on your Jep charts? I'm honestly just curious.
If the AF/D information isn't truly available to you I honestly think that is a major oversight. If all of the information that does matter is available to you, well, not a problem.
I think everybody could do better. I'm a systems guy. I spot flaws and question them. Hence why I've been questioning you saying you all don't fly with the information available in AF/Ds. I'm mostly trying to determine if the information that matters which is in the AF/D is available in any form. If not, I find that rather interesting.
denverpilot
Tied Down
That will bite you right in the ass in the mountains, as someone already pointed out with the "two windsocks" comment. It can also bite you in the flatland.
I have been privileged (ha. Not.) to have been hit by a microburst on short final. CFI on board recognized it. I was days away from my Private checkride and I'll never forget it.
Started with, "Pull the power" from the CFI...
"It's already all the way out... [look at ASI] ... airspeed increasing. She doesn't want to come down."
"Hmm. Look at that flag. Pointed right at us."
About that time the bottom fell out.
ASI rapidly decreasing, we're about 200' AGL. We flew into the downward push of massive amounts of air descending rapidly.
Power shoved to about 3/4. (I learned later I was too "ginger" on the addition of power... It should have gone full.)
Airspeed now decreasing and the rate at which it's decreasing is alarming.
"Airspeed 55 and dropping." I called out. (With a very big question mark in my voice.)
CFI: "I'll explain in a sec. My aircraft. Follow me on the controls, I want you to understand this."
He shoves the throttle to full and holds a pitch angle that should be appropriate for about a Vx climb. And waits.
Can't push forward, sink rate would be too high. Can't pull back. Stall horn is now on solid.
Can feel the edge of the stall in our butts. Elevator to just barely keep it flying with the engine roaring.
Essentially a go-around configuration but at out altitude and a summertime temperature and DA, we're going down... not up.
Airspeed continues down. Aircraft "arrives" solidly just before the numbers without the ability to flare. Close to 1000 FPM down last I looked.
Spring steel gear in that Skyhawk got a workout that day. It tried to bounce us back skyward but we were now thoroughly stalled. Weirdest landing I've ever felt in my butt. Gear pushed back up, but we barely skipped. Engine at full throttle.
Chop power, as now we're accelerating down the runway quickly gaining speed. I start hard braking as he yanks the throttle to idle.
"Your airplane, get her stopped." I think we may have added a nervous "Whoa, Nellie!" during the rollout to that. We're being blown down the rest of the runway with a tailwind, but nothing the brakes (hard) couldn't handle.
We look back and see the flagpole at the approach end of the runway is still pointed straight out in the direction of a headwind.
The windsock just past midfield is pointed straight out the opposite direction.
We taxi off and debrief with the engine idling, "So do you recognize what that was?" A definite feel of relief in the cockpit. (More mine than his.)
The Delta crash at DFW was still pretty fresh in everyone's minds back then...
"Microburst."
"Yep. In a prop driven aircraft you can just barely get away with what we just did. In a jet, the engines would never spool up fast enough. We just kinda hung there on the prop waiting for the runway to come up and meet us. Okay. What's your plan?"
"I think we're done for the day."
"Exactly what I wanted to hear, Nathan."
And with that... one of the best lessons of my life was over. Courtesy of Mother Nature.
The tiny building thunderstorm that produced this was just barely East of KBDU. We were landing at KEIK. It was early afternoon before the usual "pop" of thunderstorms along the Front Range that march East every afternoon, building and pounding Northeastern Colorado and Southwestern Nebraska.
Another lesson learned. Convective activity reaches out lots of miles where it can't be seen.
His kid who's now Commercial / Instrument rated was in a car seat in the back seat. I had a fleeting thought of "this isn't going to be good if I kill my CFIs kid today".
A later comment over lunch was, "You've now seen something many pilots will never see."
I shook my head and said I'd be more than happy for that to be the only time.
I learned what all that MCA and slow-flight training was for that day.
Perhaps even "Departure" stalls.
Problem was, we weren't departing. Instead we were headed for Terra Firma at a high rate of descent with the engine roaring.
Watch ALL the signs for wind direction and speed always. Not just the windsock.
Flags, dust, grass blades, water, whatever. If you can see it, integrate it.
Captain
Final Approach
Well, without digging through my log book I'd say I've never been to KAMW. It doesn't look familiar, but I've forgotten places I've been before. With that said, I did look it up on Jepps and there is a note on the Airport Diagram (11-1) that says to activate the lights on 126.0. So THAT information is available to me. TPA's are not listed anywhere on Jepps that I've ever seen.
I think the Jepps only list if it's non-standard, ie right traffic, for a runway. I wouldn't bet my life on that but I'm pretty sure all right traffic runways have a note. So...if no note it's left.
As far as 'major oversights' go, it's the entire airspace system of 121 carriers. I'd guess MOST pilots fly professionally. I have nothing to really base that on, but Delta, United, and American have over 10K pilots each. And that's just them. Then there are all the LCC's and regionals, FedEx, UPS, and then there are the Fractional guys, NetJets alone with 4,000'ish and all the 135 on top of that. Seems to me like the GA fleet with A/FDs and taking reverse high speeds without permission and landing on gravel and turning on lights at all, let alone with a separate frequency are in the minority.
I say all this not to put anybody down. Aviation is full of two pilots, one looking up and the other looking down, both with envy. I'm just trying to say, it's different. The way I operate is the way most pilots do.
(that little reverse high speed dig was supposed to be sorta funny. Please don't get upset)
I think the Jepps only list if it's non-standard, ie right traffic, for a runway. I wouldn't bet my life on that but I'm pretty sure all right traffic runways have a note. So...if no note it's left.
As far as 'major oversights' go, it's the entire airspace system of 121 carriers. I'd guess MOST pilots fly professionally. I have nothing to really base that on, but Delta, United, and American have over 10K pilots each. And that's just them. Then there are all the LCC's and regionals, FedEx, UPS, and then there are the Fractional guys, NetJets alone with 4,000'ish and all the 135 on top of that. Seems to me like the GA fleet with A/FDs and taking reverse high speeds without permission and landing on gravel and turning on lights at all, let alone with a separate frequency are in the minority.
I say all this not to put anybody down. Aviation is full of two pilots, one looking up and the other looking down, both with envy. I'm just trying to say, it's different. The way I operate is the way most pilots do.
(that little reverse high speed dig was supposed to be sorta funny. Please don't get upset)
Captain
Final Approach
poadeleted20
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Having flown with everything from Student Sport Pilots to major air carrier ATP's, and flown myself in everything from J-3C's to F-111's, I would have to disagree. And I find it unsettling that anyone with a pilot certificate above Student (especially a professional pilot) would not be familiar with 91.103 and its requirement to familiarize yourself before flight with "all available information concerning that flight." As I see it, if entry into the traffic pattern is a possibility, the published TPA applicable to the aircraft type and the pattern direction for each possible runway for that aircraft type would be of concern for that flight.
Excellent write up Nate..... I too have experienced microbursts but not where I was forced to the ground.. That landing will stay in your memeory forever, and mine from here on out...
FlySince9
En-Route
Denver Pilot
I got my PPL in upstate NY. So I do have "some" experience in mountain flying. My comments were only to say that I don't make a pass just to seek out and read a wind sock to verify the info I have already obtained through other queues. Your example of a MicroBurst or wind shear can happen on short final even after searching out a tee or sock. Making a pass specifically to read a wind sock is not going to save your A$$ from that possibility.
Bottom line...Fly the airplane and be ready for such a possibilty...
I got my PPL in upstate NY. So I do have "some" experience in mountain flying. My comments were only to say that I don't make a pass just to seek out and read a wind sock to verify the info I have already obtained through other queues. Your example of a MicroBurst or wind shear can happen on short final even after searching out a tee or sock. Making a pass specifically to read a wind sock is not going to save your A$$ from that possibility.
Bottom line...Fly the airplane and be ready for such a possibilty...
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denverpilot
Tied Down
Correct. I just thought your wording was downplaying the information provided by the sock. No problem.
kimberlyanne546
Final Approach
Amazing write up. Felt like I was right there.
Captain
Final Approach
Look, that bolded bit seems pretty accusitory. It's like I'm a bad guy for knowing or not knowing something. NOBODY at ANY airline could tell you what FAR 91.103 is. (By NOBODY I mean fewer than 5 out of 100). I'm not off base here. If you're unsettled by the reality of what the Airline Industry is then so be it.
No airline pilot knows FARs by number unless, maybe, they're in the training department. And even then it's ify at best.
That's not to say I didn't know the reg. I do know that the PIC must become familiar with all available information. But nobody I know (by nobody I guess maybe 95%) could tell you that's FAR 91.103. Sorry to burst your bubble.
I also know what a ridiculous reg that is. Obviously written by lawyers for the FAA as there is NO WAY to become familiar with ALL aspects of ANY flight. Just looking at FARs you'd have to do like they do to issue a new operators certificate. Sit down at a table and go over each and every FAR and see where in the manuales compliance with that individual FAR is met. In this case you'd have to go over each and every FAR to verify where in your flight planning compliance with each FAR is compliant. That's just FARs! Now it's on to weather and flight planning and NOTAMS and, and, and.
Anyway, please don't hold me or any other professional pilot up to the same standard as you do your students. Students are learning the FARs. They need the drills. Professional pilots don't need to know the exact number. They just need to know the content. Nobody ever asks me to identify 91.103 or any other reg.
I'm telling you it's a different world. There are other airline pilots here, right? Ask them.
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jaybee
Cleared for Takeoff
poadeleted20
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I know quite a few Part 121 carrier pilots, and ave known many more over the years. My experience suggests you are incorrect, but experiences vary.
In any event, your post about not carrying or referring to the publications which published TPA's in them is what I find so unsettling.
You may find it "ridiculous," but te FAA is serious about it, and it was written by operators, not lawyers.
Words fail me.
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danhagan
En-Route
Not at our Class C KELP - They don't bust anyone flying 1000 AGL in piston ... used to be 800 TPA and now this 838 TPA below:
AIRPORT REMARKS:
Attended continuously. TPA small acft 4800 (838);
turbojet 5500 (1538); overhead 6000 (2038).
danhagan
En-Route
Could look at the sectional for the "RP" if there is a Right Pattern. Some airports have just an asterisk "*" like Horizon TX T27 on the sectional forcing you to look at the AFD . Am not sure why they didn't just put RP 8, but they didn't. Glider activity to the north of the field.
poadeleted20
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That may cover left/rigt, but not TPA. Only place in FAA pubs for that is the A/FD.
Another reason you need the A/FD. And for those unfamiliar, T27 has "RP*" requiring referral to the A/FD rather than "RP26."
denverpilot
Tied Down
Most of them are light aircraft owner/operators and can quote FARs. If you check historical threads, they're in the conversations and engaged.
The one I called on the phone the other day is also, continues to teach students while flying 777 for a living, and is applying to be a DPE. He can quote FARs verbatim, too.
Another runs arguably the busiest twin-engine accelerated training operation at my home base after retiring on the DC-10/MD-11. He is over 70 and quotes FARs like he was a preacher with his entire Bible memorized. (Also got CFI of the Year from the FSDO a while back.)
I have this feeling you're describing a certain sub-set of airline pilots who aren't really engaged in the aviation community at large, nor interested in the slightest in GA operations.
But I meet plenty of airline FOs and Captains who aren't anywhere close to being that insular, all the time.
Whether one type or the other is the majority, I can't say.
What I I can say without a doubt that their airmanship doesn't match their peers who DO know the material, however.
My nav will typically deposit me at the FAF however if I'm crossing midfield I'll typically be descending to downwind (mostly out of concern for opposite pattern traffic).
If there is ever a question with regards to what I'll find at the runway, I just go ahead and do a low pass along the runway to have a look.
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe
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Light and Sporty Guy
Now what do you do? (KOSC)
Jets also fly a wider pattern, so I would expect the chances of a conflict with a small piston airplane circling over the runway to be minimal.
I find it awfully hard to see a wind sock from 2000 AGL. Fortunately, most of the airports I've been to that are long enough for jets have an AWOS or ASOS.
HerrGruyere
Line Up and Wait
Someone mentioned earlier in this thread that cows stand with their butts to the wind. WELLLLLLL I was up the other day and did notice a bunch of cows in a field. Their heads were pointed into the wind. I also asked my instructor about this and she just laughed and said cows do their own thing and has never heard that before.
Just wanted to give you guys that piece of news. Sorry for butting in.
Just wanted to give you guys that piece of news. Sorry for butting in.
FlySince9
En-Route
I saw it, the first time, when I was stationed in the Azores. As I looked out the back window of my house, at the surrounding Farmland, when a storm was blowing through, all the cows (on all of the farms and even in different pastures) were facing in the same direction. . It totally cracked me up!
I will give my very unscientific observation of that ..
Here is ol Wyoming the cows and horses will not bother the butt to the wind till it gets up around 20 mph or so,, under that they don't care.. Now, when you see a herd of a few hundred and every one of them are pointed in the same direction please be very careful and don't forget to consult the Wyoming wind sock...
Attachments
Catalina AVX is the first that comes to mind, but the A/FD doesn't help there either. Typically you get it at fields that restrict night ops to 'locals' and you get the freq with either the handshake of flipping through frequencies for a few seconds and trying some out lol.
That AOPA publication is the first place I've seen a recommendation for twins in general to use a 1500 AGL TPA.
Must be dated material... Today alot of singles will outrun alot of twins.. Planes like the Cirrus, Columbia, Corvalis, RV's etc....
Those numbers are a drop in the bucket compared to the FAA's estimate of nearly 600,000 active pilot certificates in the U.S.
http://www.faa.gov/data_research/aviation_data_statistics/civil_airmen_statistics/2009/
Summary of the above data:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilot_certification_in_the_United_States#Number_of_active_pilots
It appears that the number of commercial certificates plus ATP certificates exceeds the number of private certificates, but not all of the former have flying jobs.
spinfire
Pre-takeoff checklist
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Dan
poadeleted20
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Cambridge MD (KCGE), too. Had some fun one night with a trainee whose preflight planning wasn't quite complete -- circling over the airport while he clicked away on CTAF until he finally realized there was something wrong, looked it up in the A/FD which I insist my trainees carry, and got the lights on in one try on the correct freq.
jaybee
Cleared for Takeoff
rottydaddy
En-Route
I wonder... if one flies regularly to unfam non-towered airports without consulting the A/FD, how does one deal with noise-abatement procedures?
Sometimes a right-hand pattern is used for that; sometimes there are signs at hold-short areas describing such procedures for departure, but not always, right?
Sometimes a right-hand pattern is used for that; sometimes there are signs at hold-short areas describing such procedures for departure, but not always, right?