Midair Collision in Oregon yesterday 10/15/2011

And now they start getting comments like "Let all speak as one voice: ban private aviation, once and for all." on the local news site. Funny how nobody wants to ban cars after an accident...
 
Meanee said:
And now they start getting comments like "Let all speak as one voice: ban private aviation, once and for all." on the local news site. Funny how nobody wants to ban cars after an accident...
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I flew freight out of PDX for most of this year...love the scenery but man are some of those people weird as hell
 
Meanee said:
And now they start getting comments like "Let all speak as one voice: ban private aviation, once and for all." on the local news site. Funny how nobody wants to ban cars after an accident...
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Everyone who has ever flown on a commercial airliner becomes a ****ing expert when a little airplane crashes
 
taters said:
I flew freight out of PDX for most of this year...love the scenery but man are some of those people weird as hell
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You mean like father and son from a remote farm who planted a bomb in a bank last year? Two idiot cops from a local bomb squad died when they "determined that the device was a hoax", grabbed it, and it went off. Somehow we always expect these things to happen in Alabama, Arkansas, or Georgia, and it always happens in Oregon. Weird people yah.
 
keep Portland Weird...trust me they will not have a problem
 

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Anyone know what caused the actual crash?
 
MachFly said:
Anyone know what caused the actual crash?
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The story on this link seemed to take forever to load, but sounds like one plane might have been practicing stalls:

http://www.oregonlive.com/wilsonville/index.ssf/2011/10/plane_with_student_pilot_dropp.html

Copy-and-paste of the salient portions:
Plane with student pilot dropped onto smaller craft, breaking it into pieces, investigators find

Published: Wednesday, October 26, 2011, 6:39 PM Updated: Wednesday, October 26, 2011, 7:47 PM

By Rick Bella, The Oregonian
[...]
WILSONVILLE -- The twin-engine Piper flown by a Beaverton flight instructor and a Hillsboro student dived down on the smaller aircraft, smashing it to pieces and sending its pilot crashing to his death, police said Wednesday.

Capt. Ken Summers, Yamhill County Sheriff's Office spokesman, said witnesses to Tuesday's midair collision northwest of Aurora State Airport told investigators that the larger Piper PA-44 Seminole was executing training maneuvers in the area, making a series of rapid ascents and descents shortly after 4 p.m., when it came down upon a Beech Bonanza V35 that had taken off from the Twin Oaks Airpark in Hillsboro.

The Piper's underside then struck the Beech.

"It was literally cut in two," Summers said.

The Beechcraft -- in pieces -- then careened out of control and spiraled into ground. Pilot Stephen L. Watson, 58, of Beaverton, a retired Oregon State Police sergeant, was killed.

The crippled Piper then limped to Champoeg State Heritage area, where it made an emergency landing in an open field just west of the park. The plane, registered to Hillsboro Aviation, appeared to have damaged landing gear.
​
 
Hmm. Sounds like the Beech wasn't on with ATC for advisories... and possibly flying below the radar, and the low-wing piper wouldn't see him. I just can't imagine a flight instructor not being on with ATC with a student, but maybe I'm naive. Then again, also sounds like a clearing turn didn't happen... is that a practice area?
 
I am surprised the V36 did not see the twin coming down. No matter how good the weather and your eyesight is you are not going to see the one that is going to hit you, check this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwT6yP1UXE4 both were in ATC contact.

This where having some form of traffic alert would have avoided the incident. I have the Monroy Traffic Watch+ and for sure it has alerted me of potential close encounters. The fast closing speeds and multiple incident angles makes it almost impossible for a pilot to assess a collision threat.

José
 
It is a fairly intense training area...lots of low level activity
 
Jim Logajan said:
The story on this link seemed to take forever to load, but sounds like one plane might have been practicing stalls:

http://www.oregonlive.com/wilsonville/index.ssf/2011/10/plane_with_student_pilot_dropp.html

Copy-and-paste of the salient portions:
Plane with student pilot dropped onto smaller craft, breaking it into pieces, investigators find

Published: Wednesday, October 26, 2011, 6:39 PM Updated: Wednesday, October 26, 2011, 7:47 PM

By Rick Bella, The Oregonian
[...]
WILSONVILLE -- The twin-engine Piper flown by a Beaverton flight instructor and a Hillsboro student dived down on the smaller aircraft, smashing it to pieces and sending its pilot crashing to his death, police said Wednesday.

Capt. Ken Summers, Yamhill County Sheriff's Office spokesman, said witnesses to Tuesday's midair collision northwest of Aurora State Airport told investigators that the larger Piper PA-44 Seminole was executing training maneuvers in the area, making a series of rapid ascents and descents shortly after 4 p.m., when it came down upon a Beech Bonanza V35 that had taken off from the Twin Oaks Airpark in Hillsboro.

The Piper's underside then struck the Beech.

"It was literally cut in two," Summers said.

The Beechcraft -- in pieces -- then careened out of control and spiraled into ground. Pilot Stephen L. Watson, 58, of Beaverton, a retired Oregon State Police sergeant, was killed.

The crippled Piper then limped to Champoeg State Heritage area, where it made an emergency landing in an open field just west of the park. The plane, registered to Hillsboro Aviation, appeared to have damaged landing gear.
​
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Ah ****, out of all the type of accidents I hate these the most.
 
Piloto said:
I am surprised the V36 did not see the twin coming down. No matter how good the weather and your eyesight is you are not going to see the one that is going to hit you, check this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwT6yP1UXE4 both were in ATC contact.

This where having some form of traffic alert would have avoided the incident. I have the Monroy Traffic Watch+ and for sure it has alerted me of potential close encounters. The fast closing speeds and multiple incident angles makes it almost impossible for a pilot to assess a collision threat.

José
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Well when you fly you don't normally look at what's directly above you and on your high 6, in most GA aircraft you can't even do that without turning on a knife-edge.

Regarding the Hudson video that you posted that corridor has a lot of traffic compacted into a small area, it is uncontrolled airspace and pilots make their own position reports. I used to fly there quote often, you really have to be scanning for traffic.
 
MachFly said:
Well when you fly you don't normally look at what's directly above you and on your high 6, in most GA aircraft you can't even do that without turning on a knife-edge.

Regarding the Hudson video that you posted that corridor has a lot of traffic compacted into a small area, it is uncontrolled airspace and pilots make their own position reports. I used to fly there quote often, you really have to be scanning for traffic.
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Take a look at http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7025897569830845243#

At FL360 (Class A airspace) under IFR and under ATC control.

José
 
ScottM said:
If I remember correctly the family of one of the kids who was killed by the ATC error went to the controller's home after the crash and killed the controller for his actions.
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And the sad thing is, like in every other horrific event, there isn't a single person or thing to blame. He made mistakes (shoot, he had two planes to deal with before the third came in, couldn't he have just put them on FL340 and FL360 or something knowing the radar was down?), his employer made mistakes, ICAO made mistakes, the maintenance crew made mistakes... we always talk about a chain of errors, and this is just a strikingly sad example.
 
onwards said:
And the sad thing is, like in every other horrific event, there isn't a single person or thing to blame. He made mistakes (shoot, he had two planes to deal with before the third came in, couldn't he have just put them on FL340 and FL360 or something knowing the radar was down?), his employer made mistakes, ICAO made mistakes, the maintenance crew made mistakes... we always talk about a chain of errors, and this is just a strikingly sad example.
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You forgot the fourteen eyes that were at the scene looking for each other. Eyesight alone is not enough to avoid such an incident. Otherwise TCAS would not have been mandated for the airlines.

José
 
Piloto said:
You forgot the fourteen eyes that were at the scene looking for each other. Eyesight alone is not enough to avoid such an incident. Otherwise TCAS would not have been mandated for the airlines.

José
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Good point, although it raises a philosophical question - assuming the flights were in conditions that allowed for visibility (which I believe they were), would the accident have occurred had there not been a reliance on ATC? I'm not challenging any wisdom here, I barely have 100 hours as GA pilot, just wondering.
 
onwards said:
Hmm. Sounds like the Beech wasn't on with ATC for advisories... and possibly flying below the radar, and the low-wing piper wouldn't see him. I just can't imagine a flight instructor not being on with ATC with a student, but maybe I'm naive. Then again, also sounds like a clearing turn didn't happen... is that a practice area?
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Huh? Most of my flight training (PP and IR) has not been with ATC. And that's within 30nm of a Class B. No requirement to get advisories, and they're not always helpful.

I know the FAA always trumpets the "See and Avoid" concept, and the NTSB will likely fault someone for not following it.

However, I think most of us get by with the "Big Sky" concept. Its really not possible to effectively scan the entire volume of sky from which another aircraft can threaten you, which can include behind and below.
 
ScottM said:
If I remember correctly the family of one of the kids who was killed by the ATC error went to the controller's home after the crash and killed the controller for his actions.
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You remember correctly. The uncle of one of the kids travelled to switzerland and stabbed the controller.

The accident report is quite sobering reading. A couple of people at the swiss ATC contractor were sentenced for their negligence in the case. The controller interestingly was not found to be criminally negligent. A really bizarre combination of ATC, airline training and procedural errors that led to the outcome.
 
onwards said:
Good point, although it raises a philosophical question - assuming the flights were in conditions that allowed for visibility (which I believe they were), would the accident have occurred had there not been a reliance on ATC?
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They were in VMC and had visual contact minutes prior to the impact.
 
MachFly said:
What does that have to do with the hudson crash?
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Is to show the contrast that a midair can a occur in a non-crowded airspace under ATC control vs the conditions on the Hudson midair.

José
 
onwards said:
Good point, although it raises a philosophical question - assuming the flights were in conditions that allowed for visibility (which I believe they were), would the accident have occurred had there not been a reliance on ATC? I'm not challenging any wisdom here, I barely have 100 hours as GA pilot, just wondering.
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If the ATC controller would not have contacted them the pilots would have followed TCAS indications for one airplane to climb and the other to descend, thus avoiding the midair. The contoller should have noticed way before they got close that the two plane were at the same altitude.

José
 
Piloto said:
If the ATC controller would not have contacted them the pilots would have followed TCAS indications for one airplane to climb and the other to descend, thus avoiding the midair. The contoller should have noticed way before they got close that the two plane were at the same altitude.

José
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To my understanding, TCAS overrides ATC instructions. The crash in Europe (Cargo plane and passenger plane) had one of the flight crews follow ATC, and another one followed TCAS, causing a mid-air.
 
Meanee said:
To my understanding, TCAS overrides ATC instructions. The crash in Europe (Cargo plane and passenger plane) had one of the flight crews follow ATC, and another one followed TCAS, causing a mid-air.
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The bahrainian crew followed their british/canadian training, the bashkirian crew followed their old soviet 'the controller is allways right' training. The documentation provided to the bashkirian crew during their TCAS training was ambiguous and not reflected in changes in company policy.
 
"The National Transportation Safety Board has launched an investigation."

I wonder what they launched it from?


John
 
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