Mid-Air at Winter Haven

Lowflynjack

Lowflynjack

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Jack Fleetwood
Looks like it might be a Jack Brown Cub and an Archer.

https://www.wfla.com/news/polk-coun...ear-winter-haven-regional-airport-police-say/

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Interesting, as the Cub isn't amphib, and Lake Hartridge is next to the airport. Hopefully two patterns didn't merge.
 
Warrior N9221D normally out of KLAL was doing pattern work at around that time.
 
Used to work there. Sad day. :(
 
Initial reports doesn’t look good. Another sad day for aviation
 
Kenny Phillips said:
Interesting, as the Cub isn't amphib, and Lake Hartridge is next to the airport. Hopefully two patterns didn't merge.
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If it’s from Jack Browns, it’s an amphib.

I was here a year or so ago with @Salty and recall it being quite an active little airport. Sad day!
 
Jack Brown’s Cubs are amphibs. I believe they’re all NORDO. There’s also a non-amphib yellow Cub that’s based at KGIF (Winter Haven regional).

Patterns for the F57 water runway and for KGIF do overlap, but the water runway is on Lake Jessie, not Lake Hartridge. Jessie is west of the airport and Hartridge is to the east. A seaplane wouldn’t be in the Lake Jessie pattern while over Hartridge, but the KGIF pattern for 29 goes over Lake Hartridge.

KGIF is my home drome. Lots of traffic and it’s getting busier all the time. I do worry about seaplane traffic so close by, much of it students and NORDO.
 
Skyhawk-II said:
Warrior N9221D normally out of KLAL was doing pattern work at around that time.
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I'm afraid that's likely it. SkyVector track ends in the middle of Lake Hartridge. The track abruptly ends at ~900' and 115mph.

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Very very sad day. RIP.
 
I was at Jack Browns 5yrs ago and it was a great experience….still use the mug. They are a really good group of people this makes me sad.
 
Notrub said:
I was at Jack Browns 5yrs ago and it was a great experience….still use the mug. They are a really good group of people this makes me sad.
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AFAIK, we don't know yet that it was their Cub. Just an assumption, though a likely one, but there are other yellow Cubs flying in the area.
 
I have it on good authority, (someone involved with Jack Brown's) that it was one of their airplanes and he believes there are four fatalities.
 
Kristin said:
I have it on good authority, (someone involved with Jack Brown's) that it was one of their airplanes and he believes there are four fatalities.
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Really a shame. I feel the worst for the families who have to deal with the loss; for the pilots and passengers it's over.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Those are not amphib floats in that photo.

To make sure we are using the correct terminology, amphib means it has retractable gear that allows it to operate on land OR water.

Those floats have no gear.
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Agreed, and unfortunately they look identical to the floats on their website.
 
UPDATE:

"One body was recovered around 5:30 p.m. and then the sheriff's office confirmed rescuers found another body Tuesday night.

"Investigators said one of the planes that crashed was a Piper J-3 Cub seaplane operated by Jack Brown's Seaplane Base in Winter Haven. The other plane was identified as a Cherokee Piper 161 fixed-wing plane operated by Sunrise Aviation on behalf of Polk State College." ​
https://www.wesh.com/article/planes-collide-winter-haven-florida/43236981#
 
Half Fast said:
Jack Brown’s Cubs are amphibs. I believe they’re all NORDO. There’s also a non-amphib yellow Cub that’s based at KGIF (Winter Haven regional).

Patterns for the F57 water runway and for KGIF do overlap, but the water runway is on Lake Jessie, not Lake Hartridge. Jessie is west of the airport and Hartridge is to the east. A seaplane wouldn’t be in the Lake Jessie pattern while over Hartridge, but the KGIF pattern for 29 goes over Lake Hartridge.

KGIF is my home drome. Lots of traffic and it’s getting busier all the time. I do worry about seaplane traffic so close by, much of it students and NORDO.
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Maybe I'm too "techy" (never thought I'd say that never having a Facebook) but I would not be comfortable being in that area with that amount of traffic willfully NORDO.
https://www.instagram.com/p/CnX4uJarTiq/?hl=en

My prayers go out to all.
 
Racerx said:
Maybe I'm too "techy" (never thought I'd say that never having a Facebook) but I would not be comfortable being in that area with that amount of traffic willfully NORDO.
https://www.instagram.com/p/CnX4uJarTiq/?hl=en

My prayers go out to all.
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Agreed, and it's getting busier. KGIF is due to get a control tower in the next couple of years. The airport management anticipates that this will mean a further increase in business and charter flights. I don't know how controllers will handle a pattern that goes directly over a water runway. And it's not like the downwind leg crosses it; runway 05 final crosses it. I'm usually less than 500' when I start across Lake Jessie, and probably 100' when I reach the shore, as the threshold for 05 is right there.

This crash wasn't over Jessie, though, and the flight track looks like the planes were around 900' or so. The Warrior was a school plane from Polk State, so I'd be surprised if it wasn't making pattern radio calls but they do no good if the other plane doesn't have a radio.
 
Racerx said:
Maybe I'm too "techy" (never thought I'd say that never having a Facebook) but I would not be comfortable being in that area with that amount of traffic willfully NORDO.
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Honestly, my visual lookout is definitely more keen when I'm nordo in my Luscombe, but I'm of the opinion that tech reliance is getting crazy. Birds are nordo, too... and too many of the people I've flown with of late are too heads down with their tech. That doesn't help if the other plane is in the blind rear.
 
RyanShort1 said:
Honestly, my visual lookout is definitely more keen when I'm nordo in my Luscombe, but I'm of the opinion that tech reliance is getting crazy. Birds are nordo, too... and too many of the people I've flown with of late are too heads down with their tech. That doesn't help if the other plane is in the blind rear.
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Agreed, but...

If you heard a plane on radio doing pattern work, would you fly into the pattern area at pattern altitude or would you stay clear, whether you saw the other plane or not?
 
Winter Haven (the area, the Chain of Lakes, not specifically that airport) was the perfect place for Browns, but as KGIF gets busier, it just becomes worse and worse for Browns. Not making any judgement, just an observation.
 
2-Bit Speed said:
Winter Haven (the area, the Chain of Lakes, not specifically that airport) was the perfect place for Browns, but as KGIF gets busier, it just becomes worse and worse for Browns. Not making any judgement, just an observation.
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Agreed. A great spot in the 1960s, but it's no longer the 1960s.

Not that even Winter Haven might not be a good location, but jammed up against a busy airport (that will become a Delta in the next couple of years) is no longer a great idea. Another lake in the vicinity might be better.

BTW, the Seaplane Pilots' Association is headquartered on the Winter Haven airport. I expect there will be lots of discussion and information in the future.
 
It's very sad. I learned to fly in a cub, the kind with wheels, not that many years ago. Always had a radio, but it was just an HT and not always 100% functional. Getting a seaplane rating is still on my list of things to do.

It's a nice thing that most cubs are yellow, but still sometimes not possible to see everything all the time.
 
RyanShort1 said:
Honestly, my visual lookout is definitely more keen when I'm nordo in my Luscombe, but I'm of the opinion that tech reliance is getting crazy. Birds are nordo, too... and too many of the people I've flown with of late are too heads down with their tech. That doesn't help if the other plane is in the blind rear.
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I'm ALWAYS looking for planes. I'm with you on tech reliance getting out of hand. But the see and avoid thing doesn't always work regardless of how diligent you may be. Low wing descending to land with a high wing under

I can see a a new rule coming mandating adsb out for commercial ops like this. Unless it's already mandated? Can still be nordo. Can still not have an electrical system. 2500 bucks could have (potentially) saved what sounds like 4 lives.... provided the warrior had IN.
 
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Half Fast said:
the flight track looks like the planes were around 900' or so. The Warrior was a school plane from Polk State, so I'd be surprised if it wasn't making pattern radio calls but they do no good if the other plane doesn't have a radio.
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And probably descending or at least about to as adsb stops right where they would turn base.

Just awful.
 
Half Fast said:
Agreed, but...

If you heard a plane on radio doing pattern work, would you fly into the pattern area at pattern altitude or would you stay clear, whether you saw the other plane or not?
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Actually, I prefer that, to a degree. If I know I have them in sight, I'll do my best to integrate with what I can see. It's the guys entering the pattern, or doing something non-standard you have to worry about the most.
 
RyanShort1 said:
Actually, I prefer that, to a degree. If I know I have them in sight, I'll do my best to integrate with what I can see. It's the guys entering the pattern, or doing something non-standard you have to worry about the most.
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Well, the Cub with no wheels would not have been integrating into the KGIF pattern. It’s possible it was trying to land on Lake Hartridge, which would have been a very bad decision given the lake’s proximity to the KGIF pattern.
 
Half Fast said:
Well, the Cub with no wheels would not have been integrating into the KGIF pattern. It’s possible it was trying to land on Lake Hartridge, which would have been a very bad decision given the lake’s proximity to the KGIF pattern.
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Yeah, there's a difference between integrating into one pattern, and operating in potentially conflicting patterns.
 
Half Fast said:
Well, the Cub with no wheels would not have been integrating into the KGIF pattern. It’s possible it was trying to land on Lake Hartridge, which would have been a very bad decision given the lake’s proximity to the KGIF pattern.
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How do they take off at Jack Browns? Could the cub have taken off and flew east and climbing while the warrior was descending and about to turn base. Would be tough to spot one another.
 
Racerx said:
How do they take off at Jack Browns? Could the cub have taken off and flew east and climbing while the warrior was descending and about to turn base. Would be tough to spot one another.
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I don’t know.

I suppose that’s a possible path for the Cub but it would be pretty foolish.
 
RyanShort1 said:
OTOH, the seaplane ops have been there a LONG time. Seems like it would be foolish for others not to know that, also.
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KGIF was my home field from 2010 and pretty much up to 2018 and year on year the field got busier and busier, especially with visiting training flight ops, and you really need to be on your A game flying in and out of there these days.
I also did my floatplane endorsement with Jack Browns and you couldn't meet a friendly bunch of guys and this tragic news saddens me greatly.
I don't want to speculate on what happened yesterday, but I am surprised it's taken this long before this type of coming together has happened, yes there is a pattern for the float planes departing and approaching Lake Jessie...but.....
 
I just got my seaplane rating in January so I’m far from an expert but we never got above 700’ and that was going lake to lake. Pattern altitude for us was 500’. (Not at Jack Browns.)

why would the cub have been that high? (Unless going g further cross country.)
 
Kenny Phillips said:
Interesting, as the Cub isn't amphib, and Lake Hartridge is next to the airport. Hopefully two patterns didn't merge.
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So sad.

I just want to make sure I’m looking at the same photo that you are looking at? I see a submerged yellow Cub with floats above it?

Again, sad day…
 
jsstevens said:
I just got my seaplane rating in January so I’m far from an expert but we never got above 700’ and that was going lake to lake. Pattern altitude for us was 500’. (Not at Jack Browns.)

why would the cub have been that high? (Unless going g further cross country.)
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Lake Jessie where Jack Browns are located is surrounded by lakeside homes, so in the interest of keeping residents happy they generally just take off and land there but do their training touch and go flights at one of the nearby lakes which is less residential.
 
I will say that for YEARS some of us have asked why we couldn't have a portable / battery operated ADS-B out unit sending a VFR-out code. If they can do something like that for a drone, why can't a Cub, a Luscombe, Taylorcraft, or sailplane be allowed to carry along a 2lb portable device if we so choose? If the whole point is collision avoidance, what do they care if I'm squawking a particular code for a tail number, it should be enough that there is a flying object at position X showing up on the screens of those paying more attention to their screens...
 
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