Mid-air at KSDM

Bonchie said:
I know plenty of people who drive crappy old cars like they are NASCAR.

Complacency tends to happen regardless. Might as well have every tool to help.
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This theory is not a Kritch original. A study way back was done proving this point.
 
luvflyin said:
Car two. Then hopefully remember to remind myself, when I became complacent driving Car one, that I am not the only Car on the road and the others don't have "...all the technology possible for collision avoidance. In addition, it is engineered to almost perfect crash test results" and that technology is not infallible and that Car one deserves the same amount of respect that Car two does and if I find myself tending to fly around with my head buried in the cockpit to slap myself upside the head and get it out of the cockpit.
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Good answer.
 
Walboy said:
THIS is the main reason I chose to comply with ADS-B In/Out now rather than later; traffic awareness. I can almost always see traffic on my display before seeing it with my eyeballs. I always see traffic on the display BEFORE ATC calls it out. I know exactly where to look. I have been in busy SOCAL airspace with heavy freq congestion where there sometimes simply is no opportunity for ATC to even call out traffic. Based on my experience, I am awful at spotting traffic with my eyes so technology is a huge improvement for me. Yeah, it was expensive, but worth it to me.

I do know it is not fool proof and I do keep my eyes outside. I know many will disagree with my thoughts.
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I agree.
 
TEFLONSEAN said:
Jets and bugsmashers in same proximity....even with eyes outside if you pick each other up too late...this can happen.

This was a bad week for GA....Saddened by way too many stories in the news.

Side note....Thought sabreliners were rare these days....loud and not much around anymore...maybe it's just a particular model of saberliner????
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I think most of the Saberliners still flying are in military livery.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Not exactly. If you have ADS-B In and Out, you get other ADS-B Out aircraft traffic direct from the other ADS-B out equipped aircraft. Non ADS-B Out equipped aircraft are transmitted to you via groundlink through ADS-B In (but only if you are equipped with ADS-B Out or are within the footprint of another ADS-B Out equipped aircraft).
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Got it. Thanks, all.
 
Has anyone heard any updates on the circumstances surrounding the crash?

I flew into Brown yesterday three hours after the crash and hadn't heard anything about it until I landed at Palomar following the final leg of my flight. Visibility was very good so I am curious as to how this happened. We are all aware that the final responsibility lies with us as pilots to maintain separation, even within the Class D airspace. Perhaps they were both aircraft were lined up for 26R in error and the 172 was not seen and overtaken?

My thoughts and prayers are out to the family of those aboard both aircraft.
 
From what I'm gathering the jet was coming from the west.
The Cessna was using left runway but right traffic.
Tower was open.
Still early though so that is just the buzz going around.
 
Mutts said:
From what I'm gathering the jet was coming from the west.
The Cessna was using left runway but right traffic.
Tower was open.
Still early though so that is just the buzz going around.
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That's not a good sign....:no::no:
 
Mutts said:
From what I'm gathering the jet was coming from the west.
The Cessna was using left runway but right traffic.
Tower was open.
Still early though so that is just the buzz going around.
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If you have a BeechTalk account, someone posted a radar track showing the two aircraft. It is eerily similar to the PSA 182 midair. Sabreliner appears to be on a wide right downwind. Cessna is doing TnGs on the left runway, but making right traffic. Sabreliner is roughly 500' above and behind when the radar feed ends. I'm guessing they collided around the base to final turn (both right wings collided).

What I don't understand is what Tower was doing through all this and why the Cessna was that far out on the downwind since the threshold for 26L starts 1/3 down the length of 26R.

VERY disturbing.

News did say they recovered a CVR from the jet.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Cessna is doing TnGs on the left runway, but making right traffic. [snip] What I don't understand is what Tower was doing through all this and why the Cessna was that far out on the downwind since the threshold for 26L starts 1/3 down the length of 26R.
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I haven't been there for about 20 years, so I'm not current on the local procedures.

A/FD only says right traffic for 08R and 26R. Do they routinely keep pattern work on the north side to keep them from slopping over into Tijuana's airspace? Not only is the international border just a mile south of KSDM, but Tijuana's airport is immediately south of the border. KSDM and MMTJ are parallel and less than two miles apart.

It will be interesting to hear if the tower had the 172 extend downwind past the 26R threshhold.
 
Pilawt said:
I haven't been there for about 20 years, so I'm not current on the local procedures.



A/FD only says right traffic for 08R and 26R. Do they routinely keep pattern work on the north side to keep them from slopping over into Tijuana's airspace? Not only is the international border just a mile south of KSDM, but Tijuana's airport is immediately south of the border. KSDM and MMTJ are parallel and less than two miles apart.



It will be interesting to hear if the tower had the 172 extend downwind past the 26R threshhold.
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I'm not sure. Every time I've been to SDM for touch and goes, it was relatively quiet and they always gave me 26R. But as was mentioned earlier, Brown has apparently been busy lately due to runway work at MYF.

What strikes me about this is, if this was an uncontrolled field and he was making a normal size pattern right traffic to the left runway, the jet would have passed below him on final to 26R.
 
Different TPA's for L (600 AGL) and R (1000 AGL), and 26L threshhold is 1/3 down the length of 26R.

I have never flown right traffic for 26L, makes no sense when operating parallel runways even though right traffic for 26L should be well below anyone on downwind for 26R.

The controllers at Brown are pretty good and very accomodating unless you are making mistakes, this one is tough to understand.

'Gimp
 
AcroGimp said:
Different TPA's for L (600 AGL) and R (1000 AGL), and 26L threshhold is 1/3 down the length of 26R.



I have never flown right traffic for 26L, makes no sense when operating parallel runways even though right traffic for 26L should be well below anyone on downwind for 26R.
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The radar feed that was posted at BT shows the 172 at 1300' on the downwind with the Sabreliner turning a wide base at 1800'. The Cessna was well east of the 125 on the downwind.
 
bajajim said:
Has anyone heard any updates on the circumstances surrounding the crash?

I flew into Brown yesterday three hours after the crash and hadn't heard anything about it until I landed at Palomar following the final leg of my flight. Visibility was very good so I am curious as to how this happened. We are all aware that the final responsibility lies with us as pilots to maintain separation, even within the Class D airspace. Perhaps they were both aircraft were lined up for 26R in error and the 172 was not seen and overtaken?

My thoughts and prayers are out to the family of those aboard both aircraft.
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First post...

Welcome to POA...

:cheers::cheers:
 
The field was definitely controlled as I landed a couple hours after the accident. I entered left base for 26L coming up from Mexico. When I departed it was from 26R with a right downwind departure to the north. Seems to be standard to keep separation.

The way these patterns were being flown according to the flight tracking doesn't seem to make sense. My first thought was that the 172 might have drifted over to 26R by mistake. Now that doesn't seem to be the case.
 
AcroGimp said:
Different TPA's for L (600 AGL) and R (1000 AGL), and 26L threshhold is 1/3 down the length of 26R.

I have never flown right traffic for 26L, makes no sense when operating parallel runways even though right traffic for 26L should be well below anyone on downwind for 26R.

The controllers at Brown are pretty good and very accomodating unless you are making mistakes, this one is tough to understand.

'Gimp
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:yeahthat:

I must have done 200 landings at Brown, and never gotten a right pattern, or flown with anyone doing a right pattern, on 26L.

Though someone making a right base for 26L could very well have descended into the path of the jet on a straight-in approach to 26R, especially if (erroneously) using the 1,100 MSL TPA for 26L.

This sounds really odd. I agree those controllers are good.
 
Fearless Tower said:
The radar feed that was posted at BT shows the 172 at 1300' on the downwind with the Sabreliner turning a wide base at 1800'. The Cessna was well east of the 125 on the downwind.
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East of the 125 on a right downwind for 26L seems WAAAAY out of position, the 125 is my initial point for the overhead for 26L, almost 2 miles east of the displaced threshhold for 26L. Would make sense if the Cessna was inbound from the North coming over Otay though (entering on base for a very extended final).

That would explain how the planes came to be co-altitude and blind to each other.

I would have figured right traffic would use the same pattern as for the left which would have you turning base no further east than the numbers for 26R (1/4 - 1/2 mile pattern) which would put you well above landing traffic and well below downwind traffic.

This just gets wierder and wierder.

'Gimp
 
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A friend of mine took this picture just seconds after the collision. It happened almost right above her car. She said it sounded like a missile exploding.
Mid%20air%20brown%20field.jpg
 
It is very close to Tijuana. I will admit, the first time I was landing there, I was cleared for a visual from the east. For about 30 seconds, I was visually heading for TJ before I noticed my mistake.... :)


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dans2992 said:
It is very close to Tijuana. I will admit, the first time I was landing there, I was cleared for a visual from the east. For about 30 seconds, I was visually heading for TJ before I noticed my mistake.... :)


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When I've gone into Brown visually I've been asked if I have both Tijuana and Briwn in sight.
 
Kritchlow said:
When I've gone into Brown visually I've been asked if I have both Tijuana and Briwn in sight.
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Sharp controller. I was not asked this.

Tijuana stands out a lot better and is far more visible than Brown. I wonder how many "incidents" they've had...?


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I know they used to have a hardline between the airports. I'm sure they still do. I don't know how more seriously they take mistakes since 9/11, but from what heard back in the 80s and 90s crossing the line in the air was not uncommon.

San Diego has two potentially tricky airports to spot for newcomers. MYF is next to Miramar which has a pretty identical layout but is three times the size so much easier to spot, and SDM is next to Tijuana which also has a nearly identical layout but is also much easier to spot.
 
I've heard an old story where a military aircraft lined up on the Coronado bridge lights thinking it was runway lights. Must have been sticking up out of a fog layer.
 
Mutts said:
I've heard an old story where a military aircraft lined up on the Coronado bridge lights thinking it was runway lights. Must have been sticking up out of a fog layer.
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They must have thought their runway was drunk. The bridge is curved!
 
StinkBug said:
They must have thought their runway was drunk. The bridge is curved!
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There is a long section that is not, all I can guess is that was the portion observed. Obviously someone figured it out at some point. LOL
 
Has anyone heard any updates on this accident?
 
bajajim said:
Has anyone heard any updates on this accident?
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Not much, but the NTSB Prelim is out:

NTSB Identification: WPR15FA243A
14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
Accident occurred Sunday, August 16, 2015 in San Diego, CA
Aircraft: CESSNA 172M, registration: N1285U
Injuries: 5 Fatal.

This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been completed. NTSB investigators either traveled in support of this investigation or conducted a significant amount of investigative work without any travel, and used data obtained from various sources to prepare this aircraft accident report.

On August 16, 2015, about 1100 Pacific daylight time, two airplanes, a Cessna 172, N1285U, and an experimental Sabreliner, (Sabre 60), N442RM, collided midair approximately 1 mile northeast of Brown Field Municipal Airport (SDM), San Diego, California. The two pilots and two mission specialists aboard the Sabreliner were fatally injured. The pilot of the Cessna, the sole occupant of the airplane, was fatally injured. The Sabreliner was being operated as a public use flight by the U.S. Department of Defense in support of the U.S. Navy. The Sabreliner was registered to BAE Systems Technology Solutions & Services, Inc. The Cessna was registered to Plus One Flyers, Inc., of San Diego, California, and operated by the pilot as a personal flight under the provisions of 14 Code of Federal Regulations Part 91. Both airplanes were destroyed. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed at SDM. Both airplanes departed SDM earlier that day and a mission flight plan was on file for the Sabreliner; no flight plan was filed for the Cessna 172. A controller in the SDM air traffic control tower (ATCT) was in contact with both accident airplanes prior to the collision.

Witnesses observed the accident airplanes on the downwind leg of the traffic pattern at SDM. The witnesses turned momentarily, but then observed an explosion followed by sections of the airplanes falling to the ground. Another witness located about 2 miles east-northeast of SDM observed both airplanes at the same altitude, flying towards each other. The smaller airplane was flying from the airport, and the larger airplane was flying to the airport and descending. He stated that both airplanes did not appear to have made any avoidance actions prior to the collision. After the collision, the smaller airplane broke apart; the larger airplane banked left, impacted the ground and exploded.

The accident site consisted of two debris fields. The Cessna's debris field was located about 400 feet northeast of the Sabreliner's debris field. The Cessna's debris field was about 1,200 feet in length on a magnetic heading of 055 degrees, and contained parts from the Sabreliner. The Cessna was highly fragmented throughout the debris field. The Sabreliner's right wing was found in the Cessna's debris field. The Sabreliner's debris field was contained within a radius of about 100 feet, and no Cessna parts were located within that radius. The Sabreliner came to rest at a magnetic heading of 060 degrees.

The wreckage of both airplanes was recovered to a secure facility for further examination.
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Can someone draw me a picture of what they think might have happened here? I'm confused. Maybe the info isn't all there and we have to wait. Both on right downwind for 26 L and R? I'm surprised that this happened when both are talking to ATC, they're always persistent in my very limited experience in getting confirmation of traffic in sight from both parties.

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According to the prelim, the 172 was on downwind and the other approaching.

Perhaps they asked the 172 to extend the downwind?

Also, the only scenario I can think of where the right traffic for L makes sense is he was doing touch-and-goes on R and then was asked to switch over to the L while on right downwind. This is not uncommon at all.
 
jimbilly said:
Can someone draw me a picture of what they think might have happened here? I'm confused. Maybe the info isn't all there and we have to wait. Both on right downwind for 26 L and R? I'm surprised that this happened when both are talking to ATC, they're always persistent in my very limited experience in getting confirmation of traffic in sight from both parties.

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This is copied from what I posted in the thread in the Lessons Learned folder:

I believe the collision happened on base or around the base to final turn.

Based on the radar track I saw (I'd link to it, but you can't access it without a BeechTalk account), it shows the 172 on an extended right downwind at 1300'.

The aircraft I believe is the Sabreliner (squawking 4644) is just starting to turn right base toward the 172 from an altitude of 1800'. The Sabreliner arrived on a wide downwind just south of the Poggi VOR.

The radar feed stops there- Sabreliner in the turn to base and 172 not turning base yet. Sabreliner is 500' above and I assume descending, probably 1.5 to 2 miles behind the 172. Sabreliner should have been able to see the 172 while they were both on downwind, but probably could not see him when they turned base.

What I don't understand is what the 172 was doing that far downwind and what tower was doing through all this.

There may have been third aircraft involved - on the radar picture, another aircraft looks like it might be on final for 26L coming up from the border. If that is true, tower may have had him on the extended downwind for spacing. I REALLY wish we had a feed for Brown tower.

That is pretty much the best we know right now.

I speculate, that Tower may have directed 85U to do a right pattern to accommodate the aircraft arriving from south of the border. He then may have had to extend the downwind to further accommodate (that would explain why he was unusually far downwind). It is also possible that tower cleared him to turn base, but he did not hear it for some reason. We just don't know, especially since the tower transcripts have not been released.

Because of the altitude difference, the Sabreliner probably could not see him when they turned base. The geometry is very similar to the PSA 182 midair that also happened in San Diego.
 
Thanks for the rehash, I didn't see your earlier one.
 
I was talking to a friend last night who is a controller in the area (not at SDM). She said that she and all her coworkers were able to review the radar tracks and were trying to figure out what happened as well. Unfortunately as SDM is a contract tower they weren't able to review the tapes of the radio transmissions, and as such were only able to speculate as well. Apparently there were 2 controllers in the tower, one of them a trainee who was not working the radios. She said it appeared that they both essentially turned the same base, and that the Sabre descended onto the cessna. She also suspects that the blame lies with ATC. We'll see what the investigation finds though, my friend has access to a little more info than we do, but not much, so don't take any of that as anything more than speculation.
 
StinkBug said:
I was talking to a friend last night who is a controller in the area (not at SDM). She said that she and all her coworkers were able to review the radar tracks and were trying to figure out what happened as well. Unfortunately as SDM is a contract tower they weren't able to review the tapes of the radio transmissions, and as such were only able to speculate as well. Apparently there were 2 controllers in the tower, one of them a trainee who was not working the radios. She said it appeared that they both essentially turned the same base, and that the Sabre descended onto the cessna. She also suspects that the blame lies with ATC. We'll see what the investigation finds though, my friend has access to a little more info than we do, but not much, so don't take any of that as anything more than speculation.
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What's a contract tower? As in Brown tower employees aren't federal / FAA folks? How does that work?
 
StinkBug said:
I was talking to a friend last night who is a controller in the area (not at SDM). She said that she and all her coworkers were able to review the radar tracks and were trying to figure out what happened as well. Unfortunately as SDM is a contract tower they weren't able to review the tapes of the radio transmissions, and as such were only able to speculate as well. Apparently there were 2 controllers in the tower, one of them a trainee who was not working the radios. She said it appeared that they both essentially turned the same base, and that the Sabre descended onto the cessna. She also suspects that the blame lies with ATC. We'll see what the investigation finds though, my friend has access to a little more info than we do, but not much, so don't take any of that as anything more than speculation.
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Warning - pure speculation:

Based on the radar tracks I have seen, I have a suspicion that tower probably pointed out the 172 to the Sabreliner while they were both on downwind. Sabreliner would have been able to see the 172 then and may have reported traffic in sight. Both aircraft get cleared to land, but the 172 is slow to turn. Sabreliner turns and loses sight of the 172 while Tower personnel happen to be looking the other way/possibly distracted.

That is almost exactly how the 1978 PSA midair occurred.
 
ybitz said:
What's a contract tower? As in Brown tower employees aren't federal / FAA folks? How does that work?
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The FAA contracts out the operation of over 250 towers to three companies.
 
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