I don't disagree with the idea that we will, or at least we should, move to some other technology. But again, I think the free market (granted, it's not totally free of government interference) will really drive this issue. I am not sure which technology that you espouse, but wind and solar clearly are not economically viable at this point. Even with massive government subsidies, the cost per unit of energy to the end user is significantly higher than oil or gas. As this changes, we will see a shift in our economy. If you are thinking nuclear, then that is a matter of regulation and NIMBYs. Perhaps we can and should remove those impediments. I think where we differ on this is the extent to which we have faith in a command ecomomy to make this decision for us rather than market forces. Technology has opened up vastly more quantities of oil and gas resources even here within the U.S. such that the status quo--cheap oil and gas--will probably prevail and prevent a shift to alternative energy sources; at least until the jump in technology comes that makes wind or solar economically viable. Until then, it's like pushing on a rope.
Men Portrayed As Morons
- Thread starter Geico266
- Start date
I don't disagree with the idea that we will, or at least we should, move to some other technology. But again, I think the free market (granted, it's not totally free of government interference) will really drive this issue. I am not sure which technology that you espouse, but wind and solar clearly are not economically viable at this point. Even with massive government subsidies, the cost per unit of energy to the end user is significantly higher than oil or gas. As this changes, we will see a shift in our economy. If you are thinking nuclear, then that is a matter of regulation and NIMBYs. Perhaps we can and should remove those impediments. I think where we differ on this is the extent to which we have faith in a command ecomomy to make this decision for us rather than market forces. Technology has opened up vastly more quantities of oil and gas resources even here within the U.S. such that the status quo--cheap oil and gas--will probably prevail and prevent a shift to alternative energy sources; at least until the jump in technology comes that makes wind or solar economically viable. Until then, it's like pushing on a rope.
Florida Cracker
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Advertising is the building of a relationship between buyer and seller, based upon generated need. People will often let their guard down, about being sold to, when laughing. It's just a fact that we all relax a little when we laugh.
Since so many things have been made out of bounds by the idiotic PC police, advertisers seek the avenues they can, to make us laugh and buy things.
Since so many things have been made out of bounds by the idiotic PC police, advertisers seek the avenues they can, to make us laugh and buy things.
Gmaper
Pre-takeoff checklist
The oil companies are closing refineries and enlarging some others. I think the idea of supply and demand and free enterprise no longer applies to certain industries, oil being one of them. The fact is the oil companies can charge whatever they want because they know we consumers have no other options. If Joe Blow wanted to go into the oil refining business to compete I dare say that would be basically impossible because of the investment required and the infrastructure need. In addition, Joe Blow probably believes the forecasts about diminishing global oil supplies and therefore doesn't want to invest billions into an industry with a limited, albeit unknown limit, lifespan.
My personal prediction is that we will eventually see the government intervene with some sort of control of the oil industry similar to the breakup of Standard Oil early in the 20th century or more recently AT&T.
Supply and demand is a myth in industries where competition cannot get started and flourish.
Here is a little info on oil refineries from Wikipedia, always reliable source of information
. Notice that the capacity now is less than years before and is apparently declining. Watch out for higher gas prices. Also, every time a refinery goes down for maintenance or because of an external event prices spike."More than half the refineries that existed in 1981 are now closed due to low utilization rates and accelerating mergers. As a result of these closures total US refinery capacity fell between 1981 to 1995, though the operating capacity stayed fairly constant in that time period at around 15,000,000 barrels per day (2,400,000 m3/d). Increases in facility size and improvements in efficiencies have offset much of the lost physical capacity of the industry. In 1982 (the earliest data provided), the United States operate 301 refineries with a combined capacity of 17.9 million barrels (2,850,000 m3) of crude oil each calendar day. In 2010, there were 149 operable U.S. refineries with a combined capacity of 17.6 million barrels (2,800,000 m3) per calendar day. In 2009 through 2010, as revenue streams in the oil business dried up and profitability of oil refineries fell due to lower demand for product and high reserves of supply preceding the economic recession, oil companies began to close or sell refineries."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_refinery
denverpilot
Tied Down
I always get a kick when people think oil companies can charge whatever they want. It's great rhetoric but not true.
I watched petroleum traders stress out daily trying to both keep refineries fed (or shunt oil away from them somewhere else when a unit broke down) and get a decent price for it, when I worked for the now destroyed Texaco. They had to buy crude at whatever price they could get, keep tanks at expected levels to keep the refinery operating, and what the refinery wanted for crude type changes regularly. All oil is not the same. Pipelines break, tank farms have problems or need to be taken offline for cleaning, etc etc etc.
If you want reasonable fuel prices, you also have to let them actually build refineries. There haven't been new refinery permits issued since the 70s. Many have added units and upped capacity, but not much in the way of new ones. They're hated more than airports even.
And don't get me started on the SEC denying the Texaco/Chevron merger, forcing the company to sell one of the best brands in the world, to the idiots at Shell... and into British control.
Did the SEC really protect anyone from loss of "competition" in the long run, or just shove ownership overseas?
During the Gulf fiasco, all I could think was, "Yep, sounds like the BP we all knew in the industry. Texaco had rules against the crap BP pulled down there."
Consumers are getting exactly what they asked their politicians for, just like many other industries. "Don't let big bad Texaco and Chevron merge Mr. Government man! Save us from their evil ways!"
You got it. Enjoy lining BP's execs pockets and their cowboy operating pricedures. This stuff has consequences and sometimes it takes decades to see it.
The bad decision being made today is that political football about the pipeline in the Bakken. Warren Buffett is getting every bit of payback he deserves from the Administration blocking it to keep his train cars full, headed for refineries elsewhere. There's a reason he bought a railroad and it wasn't for freight. He's the only way out of the Bakken except for Tessoro's refinery which is there by dumb luck, mostly.
I'd say "paging Clark" for more insight, but no one in the biz is going to bad mouth any other company's operations because tomorrow another merger happens and they now have to work for the idiots.
You don't pre-burn your bridges in the oil biz. It's a small world. Especially pipeline management.
I feel for anyone who ended up at BP or a subsidiary. They're the epitome of a "numbers company" above all else. Even safety.
Texaco was un-safe on golf courses. That was what we were known for... Getting kicked off of golf courses.
There may still be some golf carts at the bottom of some water hazards somewhere, but I'm not telling.
Operations had a huge safety culture. It was generally lost in the merger. Leadership left, from the top down. Lots of early retirement packages.
I can say stuff like the above, because I got out and have no plans to go back. No one in the industry was surprised when BP made a mess in the Gulf. Guess who DOI is still handing drilling rights to, down there? BP and Petrobras. (Gotta keep Soros happy in the latter case.)
Government isn't regulating as much as they are handing out political favors in the industry these days. The great PR campaign to demonize petroleum companies makes it easy -- really easy -- for there to be no questions asked by the Press or Public when they say "no" to worthy companies and projects.
I watched petroleum traders stress out daily trying to both keep refineries fed (or shunt oil away from them somewhere else when a unit broke down) and get a decent price for it, when I worked for the now destroyed Texaco. They had to buy crude at whatever price they could get, keep tanks at expected levels to keep the refinery operating, and what the refinery wanted for crude type changes regularly. All oil is not the same. Pipelines break, tank farms have problems or need to be taken offline for cleaning, etc etc etc.
If you want reasonable fuel prices, you also have to let them actually build refineries. There haven't been new refinery permits issued since the 70s. Many have added units and upped capacity, but not much in the way of new ones. They're hated more than airports even.
And don't get me started on the SEC denying the Texaco/Chevron merger, forcing the company to sell one of the best brands in the world, to the idiots at Shell... and into British control.
Did the SEC really protect anyone from loss of "competition" in the long run, or just shove ownership overseas?
During the Gulf fiasco, all I could think was, "Yep, sounds like the BP we all knew in the industry. Texaco had rules against the crap BP pulled down there."
Consumers are getting exactly what they asked their politicians for, just like many other industries. "Don't let big bad Texaco and Chevron merge Mr. Government man! Save us from their evil ways!"
You got it. Enjoy lining BP's execs pockets and their cowboy operating pricedures. This stuff has consequences and sometimes it takes decades to see it.
The bad decision being made today is that political football about the pipeline in the Bakken. Warren Buffett is getting every bit of payback he deserves from the Administration blocking it to keep his train cars full, headed for refineries elsewhere. There's a reason he bought a railroad and it wasn't for freight. He's the only way out of the Bakken except for Tessoro's refinery which is there by dumb luck, mostly.
I'd say "paging Clark" for more insight, but no one in the biz is going to bad mouth any other company's operations because tomorrow another merger happens and they now have to work for the idiots.
You don't pre-burn your bridges in the oil biz. It's a small world. Especially pipeline management.
I feel for anyone who ended up at BP or a subsidiary. They're the epitome of a "numbers company" above all else. Even safety.
Texaco was un-safe on golf courses. That was what we were known for... Getting kicked off of golf courses.
There may still be some golf carts at the bottom of some water hazards somewhere, but I'm not telling.
Operations had a huge safety culture. It was generally lost in the merger. Leadership left, from the top down. Lots of early retirement packages.
I can say stuff like the above, because I got out and have no plans to go back. No one in the industry was surprised when BP made a mess in the Gulf. Guess who DOI is still handing drilling rights to, down there? BP and Petrobras. (Gotta keep Soros happy in the latter case.)
Government isn't regulating as much as they are handing out political favors in the industry these days. The great PR campaign to demonize petroleum companies makes it easy -- really easy -- for there to be no questions asked by the Press or Public when they say "no" to worthy companies and projects.
I think what you mean to say is that the assumptions upon which the theory that laws of supply and demand will reach an equilibrium point that is the efficient distrubtion of resources are not true; those assumptions being a perfectly competitive market with no barriers to entry, and perfect information. With this general proposition, I have to agree, as there is no such thing as a perfect market. And, OPEC is obviously a cartel. But that is not to say that I agree that the market doesn't wouldn't work well enough with government imposing additional arbitrary market distortions.
This is simply not true in either the market for unrefined, crude oil, or the market for distilled petroleum products. If this were really true, then why aren't they charging even more than they are?
I do not question this, as there are massive barriers to entry into this market. There are substantial regulations that make it very difficult to open a new refinery. Captial wouldn't be that impossible to raise, particularly if, as you state above, the oil companies can charge what ever they please. Perhaps someone who isn't independently wealthy could not foot the bill themselves, or go to a bank to get a loan. This is why these tend to be owned by large companies-- publicly traded. That means that many stock holders (just like you and me) all own a little piece of the action. But I see nothing wrong with that.
Break what up? The oil industry is already broken up. There is Exon, BP, Shell, Citgo, just to name a few. What monopoly is there to break up?
Wait. They close refineries, and the price of refined fuel went up? How are the laws of supply and demand not working?Supply and demand is a myth in industries where competition cannot get started and flourish.
Here is a little info on oil refineries from Wikipedia, always reliable source of information
"More than half the refineries that existed in 1981 are now closed due to low utilization rates and accelerating mergers. As a result of these closures total US refinery capacity fell between 1981 to 1995, though the operating capacity stayed fairly constant in that time period at around 15,000,000 barrels per day (2,400,000 m3/d). Increases in facility size and improvements in efficiencies have offset much of the lost physical capacity of the industry. In 1982 (the earliest data provided), the United States operate 301 refineries with a combined capacity of 17.9 million barrels (2,850,000 m3) of crude oil each calendar day. In 2010, there were 149 operable U.S. refineries with a combined capacity of 17.6 million barrels (2,800,000 m3) per calendar day. In 2009 through 2010, as revenue streams in the oil business dried up and profitability of oil refineries fell due to lower demand for product and high reserves of supply preceding the economic recession, oil companies began to close or sell refineries."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_refinery
Geico266
Touchdown! Greaser!
Okay morons, () I think this thread had drifted far enough.
Maybe I was wrong and men are morons.
) I think this thread had drifted far enough. Maybe I was wrong and men are morons.
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Snorting his way across the USA
What exactly did Ward Cleaver do for a living?
FlySince9
En-Route
A quick GOOGLE to the LTB.org indcates:
The produces decided to keep this one a secret. Ward works in downtown Mayfield. Ward’s main job seems to be writing a lot of reports. He has a secretary, and sometimes records into a dictating machine. Ward mentions the "the Thompson deal" and "the Miller audits". There is a branch office in Mexico City, and a main office in New York. Ward attends sales meeting and works with the company’s marketing department. Occasional, Ward travels to a company conference.
Some speculate Ward is was an Accountant. This would be a logical deduction, but certainly not foolproof.
The produces decided to keep this one a secret. Ward works in downtown Mayfield. Ward’s main job seems to be writing a lot of reports. He has a secretary, and sometimes records into a dictating machine. Ward mentions the "the Thompson deal" and "the Miller audits". There is a branch office in Mexico City, and a main office in New York. Ward attends sales meeting and works with the company’s marketing department. Occasional, Ward travels to a company conference.
Some speculate Ward is was an Accountant. This would be a logical deduction, but certainly not foolproof.
The only reason we do not run on hydrogen fuel cells right now is because hydrogen from natural gas is poisonous to them and we aren't building the deep water offshore nuclear/hydrogen production infrastructure to provide the world with electricity and fresh water by only transporting (and paying to) 11% of the mass of the water.
We already have hundreds of thousands of cars worth of nuke power stored in submarines we aren't using.
Technology is never the problem. Technologically we can achieve anything we display the will to. It's always the money that's the problem.
FlySince9
En-Route
There's plenty of money. Hell if there isn't they'll just print more.
I really don't want to debate this anymore. I'm at at point where I realize that a handful of people decide where we are going. I can count on one hand the people who caused the housing meltdown that we all now have to live/deal with. Right now, all I want is to drive up to a pump (without waiting in line) and not have to drop half-a-day's pay on a tank of gas. Any significant move toward alternative energy will not come in my lifetime. Be it money, stubborness, self interests, or plain old stupidity, here we are. And until people look beyond their own little pathetic lives and do what is best for the country and the generations that will follow, here we will stay.
steingar
Taxi to Parking
One out of five black males have been or are in prison. And you guys whine about commercials making you look bad. Maybe they're onto something.
And whoever was lamenting the demise of cowboy in a white hat, get real. Cowboys are boring. The villains got all the good lines in those shows. A good guy who always does the right thing is boring. They guy who'll shoot the other guy in the back to to the right thing is far more interesting, because you don't know what he'll do next.
And whoever was lamenting the demise of cowboy in a white hat, get real. Cowboys are boring. The villains got all the good lines in those shows. A good guy who always does the right thing is boring. They guy who'll shoot the other guy in the back to to the right thing is far more interesting, because you don't know what he'll do next.
One Short
Line Up and Wait
I respect that kind of boring.
John Baker
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This is just a part of the following story, the omitted photo is of Roy & Dale. This is the part that is pertinent to this thread.
-John
Do you remember the 1938 movie
The Adventures of Robinhood,
With Errol Flynn and Olivia de Havilland?
Well Olivia rode Trigger in that movie.
Trigger was bred on a farm co-owned by
Bing Crosby. Roy bought Trigger on a
time payment plan for $2,500. Roy and Trigger made 188 movies together.
Trigger even out did Bob Hope by winning an Oscar in the movie Son of Paleface in 1953.
It is extremely sad to see this era lost forever.
Despite the fact that Gene and Roy 's movies,
as well as those of other great characters, can be bought or rented for viewing, today's kids would rather spend their time playing video games.
Today it takes a very special pair of parents to raise their kids with the
right values and morals.
These were the great heroes of our childhood, and they did teach us right from wrong, and how to have and show respect for each other and the animals that share this earth.
You and I were born at the right time. We were able to grow up with these great people even if we never met them. In their own way they taught us patriotism and honor, we learned that lying and cheating were bad, and sex wasn't as important as love.
We learned how to suffer through disappointment and failure and work through it.
Our lives were drug free.
So it's good-bye to Roy and Dale, Gene and Hoppy, The Lone Ranger and Tonto. Farewell to Sky King and Superman and Sgt. Friday. Thanks to Capt.. Kangaroo, Mr. Rogers and Capt. Noah and all those people whose lives touched ours, and made them better.
It was a great ride through childhood.
"HAPPY TRAILS MY FRIENDS"
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steingar
Taxi to Parking
Again, the guy who always does the right thing gets boring after awhile. The guys who made movies about cowboys woke up to this after awhile, and made movies with more complex characters. Audiences approved with their dollars, and the trend was set. Sorry if you don't like it, but nostalgia isn't all it's cracked up to be.
I have little doubt that the participants of generations past would have happily participated in the activities of today's youth, including television, video games, and everything else, were those things available to them.
I have little doubt that the participants of generations past would have happily participated in the activities of today's youth, including television, video games, and everything else, were those things available to them.
John Baker
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As a result of this effort to provide entertainment that is more interesting, they forgot about entertaining kids in a positive way. All those cowboy movies were made for kids who were at an age when their values were being formed. Not for challenging the minds of adults.
Even so,the drivel that they offer so called adults these days offers absolutely no mental challenge whatsoever, most of it is just plain nonsense that has only one objective, to raise money from their sponsors, or those foolish enough to buy a ticket. That is it.
In those days, the producers of that so called boring entertainment actually did display that they possessed a moral responsibility to their target audiences, kids.
As far as men being morons, nowadays they are. After almost two generations of being convinced of it by the media, they believe it, and so do their wives and girlfriends who can not go more than a minute without making some sort of snide allusion to it. That is because they also have been convinced. As have their K-12 teachers.
Almost two generations of men who have been screwed for the sake of political correctness. It is continuing on to the next generation as well.
I remember as a kid hearing my mom say that if woman were running things, the world would be a much better place. Well now they pretty much are, and it is not.
-John
steingar
Taxi to Parking
Says you. If everyone liked it that's how things would be. Everyone has a choice in which entertainment venues they will participate. Obviously people have trended toward complex individuals with character flaws and sometime questionable morality.
Superman always tells the truth, does the right thing, and can't be harmed except kryptonite. Batman is partly psychotic, and can be killed just like anyone else. Who's more interesting to watch?
Everskyward
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I think that's because it's the truth behind how everyone is. No exceptions.
John Baker
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Were exactly is "Mayfield"? I tried to Google Earth it, not much luck. I think it might be in the UK
-John
Anthony
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We're all flawed, no question. However, there is nothing wrong with striving for always trying to do the right thing. There is right, and wrong, good and evil in the world. Getting off the hook because "we're all flawed" is like excusing a mistake in the cockpit and causing death and destruction because "Hey we're just human, oh well...."
Everskyward
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No, but I agree with the people who say it makes entertainment products more interesting when characters are not cardboard cutouts who only see things in black and white. Of course that is only a personal taste as evidenced from this thread.
FlySince9
En-Route
I have no idea... Just did a quick google to answer the question. It could be Mayfield, Mars for all I know...
John Baker
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As a child, I loved the cardboard cutouts, and the black and white movies.
As an adult, I like movies that are complex enough that you can not figure out the entire plot and outcome of the whole movie in the first three to five minutes. A rarity in todays formula based entertainment.
John
John Baker
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I have no idea... Just did a quick google to answer the question. It could be Mayfield, Mars for all I know...
I think we owe it to ourselves to find out exactly where Mayfield is, and have a fly in.
-John
FlySince9
En-Route
I think we owe it to ourselves to find out exactly where Mayfield is, and have a fly in.
-John
The same web-site explains that Mayfield was deliberately not associated with any particular locale. It was meant to be an "ANYWHERE, USA" image.
John Baker
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The same web-site explains that Mayfield was deliberately not associated with any particular locale. It was meant to be an "ANYWHERE, USA" image.
Oh..........well darn it to heck.
-John
Nuclear 200' under water in deep water suspensed under TLR platforms that the electricity from below electrolysizes H2 for tankers to take to shore, no back yard for anyone, no safer way to do it. H2 can be delivered anywhere in the worl in scuba sized tanks that can provide fresh water, hot water (heated with the waste heat from from the fuel cell) and electricity for refrigeration for a family for about a week. You can end waterborne and a lot of food born illness as a free bonus.
John Baker
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What I think most of this boils down to is that how easily we, as a people, can be manipulated by external forces, starting with our very early childhood.
I grew up believing in a higher moral standard because of those spaghetti westerns. Guys like Roy Rogers, and Randolf Scott were my hero's.
I have witnessed in my lifetime how the males of our society have turned from people trying to get ahead, attaining leadership positions, supporting their families, and for the most part being honorable people to what now can best be described as the exact opposite. They have become completely dependent on whatever woman they have selected to mothering them through each of their days.
All of this has been accomplished by our societies exposure to media influences.
I think, if the media decided it would be fun, they could eventually have most all of our men prancing around in pink tu tu's and completely afraid of their own shadows.
I think they may have already decided on doing that.
We buy into the crap they feed us with all our heart and soul. We are puppets.
John
I grew up believing in a higher moral standard because of those spaghetti westerns. Guys like Roy Rogers, and Randolf Scott were my hero's.
I have witnessed in my lifetime how the males of our society have turned from people trying to get ahead, attaining leadership positions, supporting their families, and for the most part being honorable people to what now can best be described as the exact opposite. They have become completely dependent on whatever woman they have selected to mothering them through each of their days.
All of this has been accomplished by our societies exposure to media influences.
I think, if the media decided it would be fun, they could eventually have most all of our men prancing around in pink tu tu's and completely afraid of their own shadows.
I think they may have already decided on doing that.
We buy into the crap they feed us with all our heart and soul. We are puppets.
John
steingar
Taxi to Parking
Do you actually know any young people?
John Baker
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I do my best to avoid them, especially like, you know, like, getting into a completely radical, like conversation, like, with them.
John
steingar
Taxi to Parking
I do my best to avoid them, especially like, you know, like, getting into a completely radical, like conversation, like, with them.
John
I rather figured as much. My best student last year joined the special forces because he thought it the right thing to do. He could have gone anywhere and done anything. My neighbor's teenage daughter is leaving for missionary work in Africa that she paid for herself. Another of my really good students is headed to Nicaragua to be a teacher next year.
You should get out more.
It's a numbers game, the ever present 80/20 rule of human stupidity. There's always the 20% of people who are reasonably smart and stoic and you can pretty much count on them to do the right thing just because it's the right thing to do. They are not the problem.
It's the other 80% who can't figure out what the right thing to do is, and it doesn't really matter, the only thing that matters is if they will profit somehow. They are the ones that the media targets the propaganda to, they are the ones easily influenced into idiocy through emotional appeal and BS.
It's when 'The Right Thing' becomes increasing profits regardless of human and societal cost that we have the issues we have now. Money is the focus of our economy and that is the problem. We have lost vision of what is important and replaced it with whatever we can buy.
The problem with Democracy is that the dishonest and greedy will always be able to bamboozle the 80% into screwing the 20 along with themselves.
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FlySince9
En-Route
+1 In a perfect world you wouldn't be able to vote unless you passed a current events-civics exam focussing on who the players are and where they stand on issues and world events.
Personally I think Chess should be a required school subject while growing up like PE. Chess exercises the mind and forces you to look as far down the road as you can and see all the possible moves that will derive from your next move so you can decide which the best move, even if it is sacrificing half your board to get the result.
John Baker
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I guess I just assumed you would understand that I was not making a sweeping condemnation of all young people, of course their are exemplary exceptions. Sadly, it is not the rule.
There are plenty of young people that have been raised properly, just not near enough.
-John
If you gave the 80% firearms, maybe they'd kill each other off, reduce population pressure from humans, and remove themselves from the gene pool too.
Wow. Did not see that one coming. I have no idea about the feasibility of this, but I am intrigued.
Good with me.If you gave the 80% firearms, maybe they'd kill each other off, reduce population pressure from humans, and remove themselves from the gene pool too.
Completely feasible, we have over a hundred nuclear reactors operating at sea safely for a few decades. You can call Rolls Royce right now and sign a contract and they can build everything you need by modifying and assembling parts and designs they have in stock and have it in production in 5 years including a couple tankers. You could call General Dynamics and they can do the same thing. It's not a problem of technology, it's a matter of will and financing.
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