Mechanics Lien

brien23

brien23

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Brien
In Wa. State probably not worth the paper its written on. So many ways to get it thrown out in the courts and worth nothing. If you miss any copy's filed or dates required to file or forget to fill out something its worthless. And any superior court judge can throw it out if he feels like it no reason just dosent like it. If you plan to file a lein with the FAA better get some leagle service to do it for you, it's sad that the process has come to that to get paid for what you are owed.
 
brien23 said:
In Wa. State probably not worth the paper its written on. So many ways to get it thrown out in the courts and worth nothing. If you miss any copy's filed or dates required to file or forget to fill out something its worthless. And any superior court judge can throw it out if he feels like it no reason just dosent like it. If you plan to file a lein with the FAA better get some leagle service to do it for you, it's sad that the process has come to that to get paid for what you are owed.
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And remember, you can't hold their log books either, it requires a court order to confiscate private property.

and you can't refuse to log the maintenance either, that is a violation of the FARs.
 
Different states have different laws on mechanic's liens, but the way to make it work virtually anywhere is to incorporate it into the work order you have the customer sign before doing any work on the vehicle. Look at the document you sign when dropping a car at the dealer for work and you'll see it right there.

The other issue is that generally speaking, a possessory lien like a standard mechanic's lien becomes essentially unenforceable if you let the vehicle leave the shop. Once that happens, about all you can do is sue for nonpayment in civil court, and then it's a commercial dispute where the court can decide whether the terms of the contract (written or implicit) have or have not been met by either party. OTOH, if you refuse to release the vehicle/aircraft without the presented bill being paid, it's up to the customer to take legal action to get the vehicle/aircraft out of the mechanic's possession. Note also that a possessory mechanic's lien need not be recorded to be effective (and even superior to all other liens) as long as the mechanic does not surrender possession of the aircraft. See the section on Liens in Gesell's "Aviation and the Law" for details and case law.

Talk to your attorney about how to make this work for you. Do it right, and you should never lose your costs due to customer refusal to pay for work on an aircraft.
 
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Do you run into many dead beats? In CA, you can take someone to small claims and if you win (which they lean in favor of the business, as long as everything is documented), you have some ability to attach wages or bank accounts.
 
Tom-D said:
And remember, you can't hold their log books either, it requires a court order to confiscate private property.
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State law generally allows mechanics to retain possession of vehicles when the customer doesn't pay for the work performed, and then the party needing the court order to recover the property is the customer, not the mechanic. In cases like this, law enforcement normally declines to become involved, saying it's a civil dispute, not a criminal act.
 
The only real insurance in this case is to know your customers. one of them stiffs you, put the word out on them. Small independent service providers are a tight knit group. It doesn't take much to find that as an owner you won't get service outside the big FBO's and high prices.
 
Ron Levy said:
State law generally allows mechanics to retain possession of vehicles when the customer doesn't pay for the work performed, and then the party needing the court order to recover the property is the customer, not the mechanic. In cases like this, law enforcement normally declines to become involved, saying it's a civil dispute, not a criminal act.
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Aircraft maintenance records are the private property of the aircraft owner, we can not keep them beyond the owners request to return them. That applies to the aircraft or any other property in the aircraft. This state requires a court order to do so, work order or not.

About 10 years or so a local A&P-IA tried this and lost. the owner thought he was taking to long on the job, wanted his aircraft and logs back, the A&P tried to hold the logs for payment, the owner took him to court and won. and the owner was awarded the court cost. A&P lost big time.
 
Ron Levy said:
The real insurance is to refuse to surrender possession of the aircraft until the bill is paid.
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You can't do that in this state with out a court order.
 
This is the primary reason I operate on a hand shake and cash, you buy the parts on your credit card, I have nothing invested but time.

the only paper that counts is the cash. stiff me and you can go away. at the next annual you will find no body wants to deal with you.
 
Tom-D said:
You can't do that in this state with out a court order.
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I would like to get the opinion of a Washington-licensed attorney on that -- I really don't think someone can contract with you to perform work on their vehicle, then show up and demand you surrender the vehicle without paying for the work. See RCW 60.08.010. It is only if you surrender the aircraft to the owner without having received payment that you have to go to court. See RCW 60.08.020. That's why retaining possession until receiving payment is so important.
 
Ron Levy said:
I would like to get the opinion of a Washington-licensed attorney on that -- I really don't think someone can contract with you to perform work on their vehicle, then show up and demand you surrender the vehicle without paying for the work. See RCW 60.08.010. It is only if you surrender the aircraft to the owner without having received payment that you have to go to court. See RCW 60.08.020. That's why retaining possession until receiving payment is so important.
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as soon as the conflict starts it is a civil court case. the A&P must give the owner the property, then sue to get their money.

It's a lose lose situation either way you go.
 
Tom-D said:
as soon as the conflict starts it is a civil court case. the A&P must give the owner the property, then sue to get their money.
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When I hear that from a Washington-licensed attorney, I'll believe it, because that's not the way the law reads to me. An automotive repair shop couldn't stay in business that way.
 
I always considered a lien to be nothing more than a document attached to the title not something that allowed you to confiscate or sequester someone's property. For instance: if you don't pay your property taxes the county puts a lien on your property. They don't make a claim to it but if you want to sell it you're going to have to clear the lien. Of course when it comes to any government entity they have a few more tricks up their sleeve like - if you want to renew your driver's license or car registration or collect an unemployment check....
 
Tom-D said:
where does this say I can keep personal property?
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Clearly you need legal counsel to understand this issue, but that section applies only if you let the item go without payment. Nothing says you have to surrender it without payment for the work performed, and everything says the debt accrues when the work is performed. You really need to dig into the basic law on point -- the Gesell book would be a good start, along with any basic book on commercial law. Or just ask a lawyer licensed in Washington State.
 
Tom-D said:
http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=60.08.020

Here again , this is the law that made Brien say the mechanic lien is worthless. It is no good after the item is returned to the owner.

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=60.08.010
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Exactly -- "notwithstanding the fact that such chattel be surrendered to the owner thereof." If you surrender the item, your lien is void unless you file as described in 60.08.20. But your possessory lien under 60.08.10 is effective as long as you do not surrender the item without payment. Your attorney will confirm that.
 
Tom-D said:
....Here again , this is the law that made Brien say the mechanic lien is worthless. It is no good after the item is returned to the owner.

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=60.08.010
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Um...I'm not a lawyer but it looks to me what that says is the lien is no good if the property had already been transferred or sold to a third party prior to the issuance of the lien. That would be the "PROVIDED HOWEVER" part. Other than that the lien stands but it never, at any time, means that you can confiscate or hold someones property. It has never meant that.
 
Silvaire said:
I always considered a lien to be nothing more than a document attached to the title not something that allowed you to confiscate or sequester someone's property. For instance: if you don't pay your property taxes the county puts a lien on your property. They don't make a claim to it but if you want to sell it you're going to have to clear the lien. Of course when it comes to any government entity they have a few more tricks up their sleeve like - if you want to renew your driver's license or car registration or collect an unemployment check....
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That's not accurate. If you fail to pay the county, their lien on your property allows them to seize the property, sell it at public auction, recover their debt plus expenses from the proceeds, and then give you whatever is left of the proceeds. They do not have to wait for you to sell the property before collecting. The details on how long you have to pay and the exact procedures vary from state to state (maybe county to county), but that is the fundamental law.

It's no different with vehicles like cars and aircraft. If someone holds a lien on your vehicle, and you do not pay the debt within the legally defined time, they can obtain judgment to have your vehicle seized and sold to make good the debt. That's exactly what's happening on that Aircraft Repo TV show. The big difference between this subject and that show is that the aircraft in that show were in the possession of the debtor, not the creditor, so they had to repossess the aircraft first. Were the aircraft still in the creditor's possession, there would be no work for the Repo boys.

Anyone who doubts this need only take their car to the shop, have work performed, and then refuse to pay the bill. I guarantee you will not legally drive away in that car, and calling the sheriff won't help you.
 
Ron Levy said:
Exactly -- "notwithstanding the fact that such chattel be surrendered to the owner thereof." If you surrender the item, your lien is void unless you file as described in 60.08.20. But your possessory lien under 60.08.10 is effective as long as you do not surrender the item without payment. Your attorney will confirm that.
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Tell me I don't have to give the logs and aircraft back

" In order to make such lien effectual, the lien claimant shall, within ninety days from the date of delivery of such chattel to the owner, "
http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=60.08.030

After that it will cost more in legal fees than just allowing the owner to leave and not pay.
 
Tom-D said:
Tell me I don't have to give the logs and aircraft back

" In order to make such lien effectual, the lien claimant shall, within ninety days from the date of delivery of such chattel to the owner, "
http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=60.08.030

After that it will cost more in legal fees than just allowing the owner to leave and not pay.
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I'm not going to tell you anything more, Tom, other than to obtain qualified Washington-licensed legal counsel on this point.
 
Ron Levy said:
That's not accurate. If you fail to pay the county, their lien on your property allows them to seize the property, sell it at public auction, recover their debt plus expenses from the proceeds, and then give you whatever is left of the proceeds. They do not have to wait for you to sell the property before collecting. The details on how long you have to pay and the exact procedures vary from state to state (maybe county to county), but that is the fundamental law.

It's no different with vehicles like cars and aircraft. If someone holds a lien on your vehicle, and you do not pay the debt within the legally defined time, they can obtain judgment to have your vehicle seized and sold to make good the debt. That's exactly what's happening on that Aircraft Repo TV show. The big difference between this subject and that show is that the aircraft in that show were in the possession of the debtor, not the creditor, so they had to repossess the aircraft first. Were the aircraft still in the creditor's possession, there would be no work for the Repo boys.

Anyone who doubts this need only take their car to the shop, have work performed, and then refuse to pay the bill. I guarantee you will not legally drive away in that car, and calling the sheriff won't help you.
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Calling the sheriff with out a court order may be useless but getting a court order takes minutes here, then the sheriff comes and serves the order to return the private property pending a cicil action.

the big difference between what we are talking about is that this portion applies mostly to real-estate which you can't hold in your custody as you can a log book.

in any case after you refuse to return the aircraft and its maintenance records that are the property of the owner you simply start a chain of legal events that will exceed the cost of recovery of the money owed.

Like Brien said, a mechanic lien is worthless here.

cash and carry , and with that I'm gone.. work to do
 
Ron Levy said:
...If someone holds a lien on your vehicle, and you do not pay the debt within the legally defined time, they can obtain judgment...
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They may be able to "obtain judgement" but they can't confiscate your property based on a lien. I can't lock somebodies airplane up in my hangar because he hasn't paid me for his oil change.

As for the lien becoming null and void if the property is in the hands of the owner:

shall have a lien upon such chattel for such labor performed or material furnished, notwithstanding the fact that such chattel be surrendered to the owner thereof
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Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the word "notwithstanding" mean nevertheless, regardless, in spite of?
 
Tom-D said:
Calling the sheriff with out a court order may be useless but getting a court order takes minutes here, then the sheriff comes and serves the order to return the private property pending a cicil action.
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I simply don't believe you. No court acts that fast other than in response to a LEO search request. As I said, you should speak with a Washington-licensed attorney.

Of course, if you agree to hand back the aircraft, then you will fall into the .020 situation where you have to sue to get paid. But the law does not require mechanics to return vehicles after working on them without getting paid for the work performed. As I said, if that were so, no automotive repair shop could stay in business.
 
Silvaire said:
They may be able to "obtain judgement" but they can't confiscate your property based on a lien.
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Correct. Once you let that aircraft go back to the owner, you have to go through the whole legal rigmarole, but at the end of that legal trail, you can have the aircraft seized and sold to pay the debt.
I can't lock somebodies airplane up in my hangar because he hasn't paid me for his oil change.
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Yes, you can. Ask a lawyer in your state.
 
When I bought my Champ the guy hadn't paid the property tax on it for six years. There were six lien notices attached to the title. If a lien notice means you can confiscate and lay claim to the property without a legal procedure why in the heck would they file a second, third, fourth...?

Like I said, I'm no lawyer but if a Mechanic's lien means you can seize property how come it NEVER happens? You'd think it'd be happening all the time if that were the case.
 
I don't see where the statute addresses what the mechanic's duty is with respect to return of the chattel. It simply says that if the chattel is returned to the owner the potential lienor is not protected against transfers of interests in the property until the lien is filed, and that no lien filed would be valid if the potential lienor waits more than 90 days after returning the chattel to file the lien. Example, Mike Mechanic fixes Oscar Owner's Cessna 911. Oscar Owner does not pay for the repairs. If Mike Mechanic does not return the Cessna, then Mike can file a lien at any time. Once Mike Mechanic returns the plane to Oscar Owner, Mike has 90 days to file the lien. If Oscar Owner sells the Cessna to Bob Buyer after Mike returns the Cessna, but before Mike files a lien, then Mike cannot enforce the lien against Bob Buyer. If Mike returns the Cessna to Oscar, and files a lien before 90 days are up, and then, after the lien is filed, Oscar sells the Cessna to Bob, then Mike can enforce the lien against Bob.

A more complex issue is whether the logbooks are part of the aircraft and thus subject to the lien.

I think you need to look elsewhere to determine whether a mechanic can withhold delivery of chattels on which he has a right to file for a lien. I think it would be very wise in any event to ensure that you are in compliance with all the laws when you enter this kind of transaction. It really would help to talk to an attorney admitted to practice in Washington.
 
Silvaire said:
When I bought my Champ the guy hadn't paid the property tax on it for six years. There were six lien notices attached to the title. If a lien notice means you can confiscate and lay claim to the property without a legal procedure why in the heck would they file a second, third, fourth...?

Like I said, I'm no lawyer but if a Mechanic's lien means you can seize property how come it NEVER happens? You'd think it'd be happening all the time if that were the case.
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Tax liens are usually handled differently from mechanics' liens and other chattel liens. There is no need for interstate consistency in tax liens. Most mechanics' lien laws are similar because consistency adds value.
 
I don't see a law regarding return of an aircraft, but clearly a repair facility need not return an automobile if the owner has not paid for repairs within the scope of an estimate. http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=46.71.031

RCW 46.71.031
Required signs.

An automotive repair facility shall post in a prominent place on the business premises one or more signs, readily visible to customers, in the following form:



"YOUR CUSTOMER RIGHTS

YOU ARE ENTITLED BY LAW TO:


1. A WRITTEN ESTIMATE FOR REPAIRS WHICH WILL COST MORE THAN ONE HUNDRED DOLLARS, UNLESS WAIVED OR ABSENT FACE-TO-FACE CONTACT (SEE ITEM 4 BELOW);
2. RETURN OR INSPECTION OF ALL REPLACED PARTS, IF REQUESTED AT TIME OF REPAIR AUTHORIZATION;
3. AUTHORIZE ORALLY OR IN WRITING ANY REPAIRS WHICH EXCEED THE ESTIMATED TOTAL PRESALES TAX COST BY MORE THAN TEN PERCENT;
4. AUTHORIZE ANY REPAIRS ORALLY OR IN WRITING IF YOUR VEHICLE IS LEFT WITH THE REPAIR FACILITY WITHOUT FACE-TO-FACE CONTACT BETWEEN YOU AND THE REPAIR FACILITY PERSONNEL.
IF YOU HAVE AUTHORIZED A REPAIR IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE ABOVE INFORMATION YOU ARE REQUIRED TO PAY FOR THE COSTS OF THE REPAIR PRIOR TO TAKING THE VEHICLE FROM THE PREMISES."


The first line of each sign shall be in letters not less than one and one-half inch in height and the remaining lines shall be in letters not less than one-half inch in height.
 
And what do you do when a judge over-rides the lawyer's carefully-drafted opinion and decides in favor of the other party?

Ron Levy said:
Correct. Once you let that aircraft go back to the owner, you have to go through the whole legal rigmarole, but at the end of that legal trail, you can have the aircraft seized and sold to pay the debt.
Yes, you can. Ask a lawyer in your state.
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Ron Levy said:
The real insurance is to refuse to surrender possession of the aircraft until the bill is paid.
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Generally true with mechanics' liens against tangible, movable property. Does vary by state.

wabower said:
And what do you do when a judge over-rides the lawyer's carefully-drafted opinion and decides in favor of the other party?
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Resolve to contribute more to the judges' re-election campaigns! :D
 
Always comforting to find a high level of pragmatism in those upon whose legal acumen and judgement you have come to rely.

SCCutler said:
Generally true with mechanics' liens against tangible, movable property. Does vary by state.



Resolve to contribute more to the judges' re-election campaigns! :D
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wabower said:
And what do you do when a judge over-rides the lawyer's carefully-drafted opinion and decides in favor of the other party?
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Judges do not usually have much patience with deadbeats. If you did work and everything is above board, it is really unlikely a judge will take the aircraft owner's side. OTOH, if there are obvious miscommunications, or you did a lot of unauthorized work, the judge will likely try to get the parties to settle. Where I practiced the judges would have informal contests to see who could clear the most cases from their docket. The real bottom line is to keep your transactions above board. I could see adopting the rules for auto mechanics as a policy, and posting the sign similar to the one that would be required if you were fixing autos, along with a notice that this is a policy not required by law. I might modify the policy to require e-mails to authorize work in excess of 110% of the written estimate, as opposed to oral authorization, and to include a statement that logbooks will be retained along with the aircraft. Then I would have customers sign a form to the same effect when they left aircraft for maintenance. You now have a written contract agreeing to a disposition that is similar to the one mandated for autos. It would be very hard for a judge not to accept the terms of that contract.
 
The sign I would post might read:

"YOUR CUSTOMER RIGHTS

YOU ARE ENTITLED BY YOUR CONTRACT WITH US TO:


1. A WRITTEN ESTIMATE FOR REPAIRS WHICH WILL COST MORE THAN ONE HUNDRED DOLLARS, UNLESS WAIVED IN WRITING OR ABSENT FACE-TO-FACE CONTACT (SEE ITEM 4 BELOW);
2. RETURN OR INSPECTION OF ALL REPLACED PARTS EXCEPT PARTS EXCHANGED AS AUTHORIZED, AND EXCEPT AS REQUIRED BY LAW, IF REQUESTED AT TIME OF REPAIR AUTHORIZATION;
3. AUTHORIZE IN WRITING, WHICH MAY INCLUDE E-MAIL, ANY REPAIRS WHICH EXCEED THE ESTIMATED TOTAL PRESALES TAX COST BY MORE THAN TEN PERCENT;
4. AUTHORIZE ANY REPAIRS ORALLY OR IN WRITING IF YOUR VEHICLE IS LEFT WITH THE REPAIR FACILITY WITHOUT FACE-TO-FACE CONTACT BETWEEN YOU AND THE REPAIR FACILITY PERSONNEL. THIS REPAIR FACILITY RESERVES THE RIGHT TO DEMAND WRITTEN AUTHORIZATION, WHICH MAY INCLUDE E-MAIL, BEFORE COMMENCING REPAIRS OR ACCEPTING THE AIRCRAFT AT OUR FACILITY.
5. THIS FACILITY RESERVES THE RIGHT NOT TO MAKE ANY LOGBOOK ENTRIES OR OTHER STATEMENTS DECLARING THE AIRCRAFT OR ANY PART OF IT IS AIRWORTHY UNLESS IN THE JUDGMENT OF QUALIFIED PERSONNEL THE AIRCRAFT OR PART IS AIRWORTHY. STATEMENTS THAT SOME PART OF THE AIRCRAFT IS AIRWORTHY DO NOT IMPLY THAT ANY OTHER PART OF THE AIRCRAFT IS AIRWORTHY.
IF YOU HAVE AUTHORIZED A REPAIR IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE ABOVE INFORMATION YOU ARE REQUIRED TO PAY FOR THE COSTS OF THE REPAIR PRIOR TO TAKING THE AIRCRAFT, ENGINE, PROPELLER, APPLIANCES, PARTS, OR LOGBOOKS FROM THE PREMISES.
 
Silvaire said:
When I bought my Champ the guy hadn't paid the property tax on it for six years. There were six lien notices attached to the title. If a lien notice means you can confiscate and lay claim to the property without a legal procedure why in the heck would they file a second, third, fourth...?
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Because they did not have possession of the aircraft.

Like I said, I'm no lawyer but if a Mechanic's lien means you can seize property
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You cannot seize the property from the possession of another without a court order, but if you still have possession of it, you can retain possession until you are paid.

how come it NEVER happens?
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It does -- all the time when someone does not pay for work done on their car or airplane. Heck, it even happens at the dry cleaner -- try walking in, giving your ticket, and then refusing to pay. See what happens next -- shirts go back on the trolley and you get your ticket back.
 
As seen, the lien law using the courts for a return of unpaid bills is a lost cause due to the lawyer/court cost and the length of time required to work the courts. then you may lose and be required to pay court costs.

So, the only way to re-coup any money from a dead beat is to use a well written work order and send unpaid bills to collection. you will be assured of some money if you have a case to start with.
 
Ron Levy said:
...You cannot seize the property from the possession of another without a court order, but if you still have possession of it, you can retain possession until you are paid...
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You know maybe it's just me but, the dry cleaner example aside, I don't see doing an oil change on an airplane as being in "possession" of it. :dunno:
 
Who would you name as the other suspects?

The term used by the shop owner I see almost daily is that "we had it in here for ______________" which in his case means on his floor and under his roof and maybe overnight depending on circumstances.

Silvaire said:
You know maybe it's just me but, the dry cleaner example aside, I don't see doing an oil change on an airplane as being in "possession" of it. :dunno:
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Silvaire said:
You know maybe it's just me but, the dry cleaner example aside, I don't see doing an oil change on an airplane as being in "possession" of it. :dunno:
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Specially when you are an independent service provider working in their hangar.
 
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