Mars suffers in new NASA budget
- Thread starter steingar
- Start date
dmccormack
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- May 11, 2007
- Messages
- 10,945
- Location
- Lancaster County, Pennsylvania
- Display Name
Display name:
Dan Mc
I don't think Mars will suffer one bit....
fgcason
En-Route
It's not just money though that's all anyone is concerned about.
It is adding years and decades to any flight time to the planets if they ever restart the programs at a later date. Before anyone notices what's going on, a 7-10 year flight to Saturn by 2018-2022 suddenly turns into 2050 or likely 2070 or beyond. Toss the current scientists into the dumpster and wait for the next generation currently in diapers or not born yet before doing anything.
At least I'm not an astronaut. I'd hate to be at orbital insertion at Mars and get a message from Earth saying "budget cuts again and you are too expensive, we're shutting down flight ops here so you're on your own, good luck with navigation..and, um, if you make it back adn land in the ocean, try to land in front of a ship of some kind."
It is adding years and decades to any flight time to the planets if they ever restart the programs at a later date. Before anyone notices what's going on, a 7-10 year flight to Saturn by 2018-2022 suddenly turns into 2050 or likely 2070 or beyond. Toss the current scientists into the dumpster and wait for the next generation currently in diapers or not born yet before doing anything.
At least I'm not an astronaut. I'd hate to be at orbital insertion at Mars and get a message from Earth saying "budget cuts again and you are too expensive, we're shutting down flight ops here so you're on your own, good luck with navigation..and, um, if you make it back adn land in the ocean, try to land in front of a ship of some kind."
Don't worry- If Newt gets elected, he'll have colonies on the moon. He said so- it must be true!
denverpilot
Tied Down
Poor Mars. Dumped near Valentine's Day.
I got a cupcake.
I got a cupcake.
Armageddon Aviator
Cleared for Takeoff
Silly me...I thought that NASA's primary mission was to make Muslims feel good about themselves...
http://washingtonexaminer.com/polit...s-new-mission-nasa-reach-out-muslim-world/1780
and here:
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politic...-to-muslim-world-criticized-by-conservatives/
and on YouTube...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zin9RkGsXrY
fgcason
En-Route
Now I know I'm stupid and don't understand anything anymore. How exactly do you inspire children to get into math and science by eliminating math and science as possible career opportunities and having no goals?
I wonder how much math and science is involved in making spray paint stencils that say "Abandoned In Place."
- Joined
- Jun 7, 2008
- Messages
- 23,971
- Display Name
Display name:
Bob Noel
Plenty of math and science needed to solve environmental and medical problems.
Still, we need to apply math and science to exploring our solar system and the stars. If Eugene Cernan is the last man to ever walk on the moon then we'll have failed as a species.
Piloto
Line Up and Wait
- Joined
- Oct 16, 2011
- Messages
- 989
- Display Name
Display name:
Piloto
Sending a man to Mars is quite an endeavour. Just the fact that unlike the one week Moon missions the round trip to Mars is an 18 months ordeal. Where are you going to store and preserve all that food for a crew of 4 to 6. In 18 months someone is going to get sick with diarreah. How much toilet paper you are going to need. And after all what are going to be the benefits to mankind. Unlike manned missions robotic missions don't need to worry about humans limitations, specially no return trip required. Robotic missions can provide HD views and soil analysis for longer times than any human can. And this can be enjoyed equally by al humans on Earth.
Lets be realistic the shortest stelar distances are measured in light years. And even if you have the capability for interstellar travel where would you go that can stand the extreme gravitational forces, extreme temperatures and extreme radiation that is most comon like in our own solar system.
Earth is indeed a very unique planet. And the fact that not even being at 93 million miles from a star like the Sun guarantees an M class planet. After all the Moon is at the same distance and there is no air neither water on it.
José
Lets be realistic the shortest stelar distances are measured in light years. And even if you have the capability for interstellar travel where would you go that can stand the extreme gravitational forces, extreme temperatures and extreme radiation that is most comon like in our own solar system.
Earth is indeed a very unique planet. And the fact that not even being at 93 million miles from a star like the Sun guarantees an M class planet. After all the Moon is at the same distance and there is no air neither water on it.
José
steingar
Taxi to Parking
I honestly don't think manned expedition outside our own planetary environment is advisable without a motive source capable constant acceleration.
dmccormack
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- May 11, 2007
- Messages
- 10,945
- Location
- Lancaster County, Pennsylvania
- Display Name
Display name:
Dan Mc
The goals of making a living, enjoying freedom, providing for loved ones, being creative, growing in skills and knowledge, collaboration with peers, etc are not sufficient motivation?
If that's the case, who cares what they do...?
zaitcev
En-Route
- Joined
- Sep 30, 2010
- Messages
- 3,259
- Display Name
Display name:
Pete Zaitcev
The problem here is, due to the pervasive waste at NASA almost nobody there uses his math and science skills for anything worthwhile. They have engineers who spent full careers without building anything flightworthy, scientists who never came to any meaningful results. And most of all, they have mission managers and program managers, who are the core of NASA, not scientists. Kids are not dumb. They know that "career at NASA" means "a life wasted". A few of most cinical may aim to become a corruption artist like "Doc" Horovitz, Griffin's deputy, become mega-rich by defrauding the U.S. Government, never get indicted, and retire to a warm place. But this hardly promotes math and science either.
fgcason
En-Route
So cleaning toilets is a good enough motivation to advance to general maintenance worker? (actually city maintenance workers get paid quite well even though changing a light bulb is not as exciting as installing a 1.5 million horse power engine destined for the Moon)
Having a job participating in full out manned mission to the Moon or Mars is likely to pay better and be far more rewarding.
No easy answers. The links comment about promoting math and science isn't going to be overly effective or useful when the job entails a drippy sink in the warehouse.
zaitcev
En-Route
- Joined
- Sep 30, 2010
- Messages
- 3,259
- Display Name
Display name:
Pete Zaitcev
For the reasons outlined above (e.g. Constellation reconstituting itself after cancellation), having a job at NASA is going to be anything but. Augustine commission documents showed very clearly that while Griffin's NASA was pretending to go to the Moon, they would never get there. Do you not understand? This is why President Obama cancelled Constellation: because it was a lie. A sham. Is this the kind of thing you want our brightest minds to partake in?
Luckier of them could build another Mars rover, or if they really lucky, maybe support VASIMR, NanoRacks, Bigelow or other perspective commercial venture. But it's more statistically probable for a kid to make it as a pro athlete than to accomplish anything for a "full out mannend mission to Moon or Mars". Sure they may have "a job participating": a dull, dead end job, which is not rewarding at all.
fgcason
En-Route
Exactly, and therein lies the problem. Too much daydreaming, not enough doing. Then the daydreamers hire more daydreamers. The people showing up to actually do something end up sitting around bored because the bosses won't let them do anything. They're limping to low Earth orbit at great peril just to do something and now they have to move to Russia or China to do that.
NASA has been daydreaming ever since they had the carpet yanked out from under them in the early 70's. Forty years of no realistic goals or purpose will cause mental illness in anyone. Nobody is walking outside the offices at night and pointing at the red dot in the sky and saying "that is where we are going." Until they have something to point to as goal no matter how difficult, nothing will happen and it will remain a dead end nothing job.
Everskyward
Experimenter
- Joined
- Mar 19, 2005
- Messages
- 33,453
- Display Name
Display name:
Everskyward
That's because no one can come up with a justifiable reason to spend all that money. Inspiring kids to study math and science isn't going to cut it. There's plenty of ways to use math and science to help solve the problems on this planet.
fgcason
En-Route
It's always about the money isn't it? Nothing in the universe is more important that the money and returns on money investments for profit. How many beancounters with no training beyond business education does it take to invent a lightbulb..or a computer..or internal combustion engine..or even a money printing press?
You gotta look past the wallet to see what the world and universe really is about. Contrary to popular belief it's not about sitting in a tree (high rise building) hoarding little green leaves (money) in everyone's hand.
Sorry. I'm a weirdo optimist.
You gotta look past the wallet to see what the world and universe really is about. Contrary to popular belief it's not about sitting in a tree (high rise building) hoarding little green leaves (money) in everyone's hand.
Sorry. I'm a weirdo optimist.
tonycondon
Gastons CRO (Chief Dinner Reservation Officer)
yea unfortunately it takes money to do things like go to the moon, as much as you dislike the notion. and you have to make a good argument on why your moon project deserves money instead of, say, building new roads or paying teachers or feeding hungry people. So, the beancounters do need to show some sort of return on investment or it won't happen.
Piloto
Line Up and Wait
- Joined
- Oct 16, 2011
- Messages
- 989
- Display Name
Display name:
Piloto
At 1g acceleration it will take one year to reach the speed of light. And another year to decelerate. Whatever propulsion source is used it should not require propellant to provide propulsion, but some form of power coupling to the space medium to convert power into a propulsive force. Similar to what a propeller does. Not to mention the amount of energy required for 100,000 pounds vehicle. The crew isolation factor is another issue to consider. Specially when radio contact delay is measured in years vs seconds for a Moon trip. That's why I am not motivated to take the trip.
José
What percentage of the total Federal expenditure is NASA? About half of one percent.
You could cut NASA to zero, along with the National Science Foundation, the Departments of Commerce and Labor, and a few other departments... and it wouldn't equal the one year increase in Medicare and Medicaid spending.
The lifetime cost for having a space program, per person, is $5,000. Health care comes up at $450,000 and goes up by 10% every year. At some point even if we cut every Federal Department and sell the White House we won't be able to pay our medical bills.
You could cut NASA to zero, along with the National Science Foundation, the Departments of Commerce and Labor, and a few other departments... and it wouldn't equal the one year increase in Medicare and Medicaid spending.
The lifetime cost for having a space program, per person, is $5,000. Health care comes up at $450,000 and goes up by 10% every year. At some point even if we cut every Federal Department and sell the White House we won't be able to pay our medical bills.
One year to reach the speed of light from an observer on the earth or in the space craft? You are also neglecting the Lorentz factor and its effects on momentum and acceleration.
steingar
Taxi to Parking
To be honest, I was thinking about manned missions within our solar system, in which accelerations of far less than 1g would be sufficient to make numerous journeys feasible. To be honest, if we actually had a portable power source that could make such acceleration possible (like a small fusion reactor, for example) I suspect it would be well within our technical capabilities. Alas, no such technology exists or is likely to do so in the near future.
If a sustained 1g acceleration were feasible, I suspect other technologies would quickly fall into line to make interstellar travel a reality. However, that is a boatload of energy (especially considering relativistic effects on mass and acceleration), and I can't imagine anything that could generate such energies that isn't rooted firmly in the realm of science fiction, if not scientific fantasy.
Relativistic effects may limit relative duration for the crew, though they would have to undertake an interstellar journey with the knowledge that they would be unable to return to the world they left.
Last edited:
dmccormack
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- May 11, 2007
- Messages
- 10,945
- Location
- Lancaster County, Pennsylvania
- Display Name
Display name:
Dan Mc
My first F/T job during and after high school was night crew at McDonalds (the only white guy, so guess which jobs I had?)
(Yeah, toilets and worse)
Such jobs can be the launching pad of more challenging endeavors. Don't knock them -- somebody has to do them -- even during a mission to Mars (a barren rock and therefore a pointless exercise).
zaitcev
En-Route
- Joined
- Sep 30, 2010
- Messages
- 3,259
- Display Name
Display name:
Pete Zaitcev
If you are concerned about the medical effects, something like Buzz Aldrin's cycler with a rotating component may be worth thinking about. Funnily enough, NASA's own Nautilus may be enough at first -- and it does not need SLS either.