Market vs. sentimental value

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Brad Haggett

Filing Flight Plan
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Feb 11, 2018
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HP942
I am a 52 year old dreamer. My pre-retirement bucket list is to buy a plane and earn my PPL, then other ratings in retirement. I’m not ready to pull the trigger on a purchase yet, but my nightly and dangerous hobby has become searching the message boards and the usual sale sites for a plane. I have noticed many planes that seem to be on the market for a long time and no change in the price, and some planes show up and are sold in a couple days. Are the ones selling quickly priced too low or at the “true” market price on average? Are the long term for sales priced at sentimental value instead of reality? I used to own a bass boat dealership years ago and it would seem some owners would hold on to a boat too long because on memories or whatever and the boat would sit and rot, rather than being realistic on the price and let someone else purchase and enjoy it. Like a boat, I’m learning a plane needs to be used frequently.

Thanks for allowing a new guy to ramble.
 
You pretty much nailed it. It may not even be sentimental value, but they take what they paid for it, plus what they put into maintenance and upgrades for the last 20 years, and expect to get their money out of it.

Then there is always, "Why yes honey, I'm trying to get rid of it. I have the airplane up for sale! See here is the posting."

Plus the few absolute bastard cases of an aircraft that any prospective buyer will run the other way from, no matter the price!
 
Lots of aircraft set on the market too long due to the seller bought the aircraft too high and don't want to loose money, Even tho, the engine times are higher, A/F hours are higher and the equipment is old tech.
 
Another contributor is family. The pilot of the family died and the heirs are trying to sell it. They don't know anything about the plane other than "it's worth a lot of money." In many of these cases, the aircraft sat for years prior to the death of the pilot because the pilot lost his/her medical.
 
I had a conversation about this with a buddy yesterday, both of our fathers are in their early 80's and whatever they are selling is worth considerably more than the market average! If the appraisal on some land is $50,000, they both think it's worth $75,000 minimum! I think it has a lot to do with the age of the seller and what their next move is. A guy selling and not buying another airplane is not nearly as motivated as a person with a deposit on a bigger, faster bird!! I have a center console boat for sale, I am taking delivery on a new boat in about 2 weeks, my motivation is stronger to sell than someone wanting to stop boating! :D:D
 
Several factors.

1. The wife told me to sell it price.
2. I overpaid for it and now you do price.
3. Have to justify the brokerage fee price
4. It’s worth more because I own it price.
5. It used to be worth that before I ran the engine out price.
 
Lots of aircraft set on the market too long due to the seller bought the aircraft too high and don't want to loose money, Even tho, the engine times are higher, A/F hours are higher and the equipment is old tech.
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Agreed - I bought my first plane 3 years ago and I had to kick a lot of tires and deal with a lot of shall we say "crusty" old guys who hated tire kickers and thought their particular ancient pile of neglected debris was worth every penny they were asking for it and I should thank them for the privilege of being allowed to make an offer.

After going 4 rounds with one particular bastard via email trying to get complete information on the panel/maintenance/logs he huffily told me he wouldn't sell his plane to me anyway for any price.

Take your time and find the right plane and the right seller - don't get emotionally involved, there will always another one for sale in a couple weeks.
 
Gilgamesh said:
After going 4 rounds with one particular bastard via email trying to get complete information on the panel/maintenance/logs he huffily told me he wouldn't sell his plane to me anyway for any price.
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Had one guy the insisted on doing it old school wouldn't take the time on the phone, and wouldn't send any photos or has he put it.. you show up and look at the plane and buy it if you like.. told him it is not like that anymore..

Talked to an owner on a plane a year ago and made them an offer predicated on vRef, other advertised planes, and Blue Book figures... turned it down, we shook hands, and moved on... found out he sold the plane for about 15% less than what I had offered (or maybe the new owner is telling me that as this may be the story he is telling the wife...:D). The new owner also told me that there was a very nice 182 in the guys hanger...
 
Clip4 said:
Several factors.

1. The wife told me to sell it price.
2. I overpaid for it and now you do price.
3. Have to justify the brokerage fee price
4. It’s worth more because I own it price.
5. It used to be worth that before I ran the engine out price.
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You forgot one...

6.) The divorce arbitrator settlement price.
 
And be careful, there are some planes that sit because those with knowledge won’t touch them. (Brand new engine only 6 hours since overhaul 10 years ago)

Hang out at your FBO. Get to know some of the people. Buy coffee, tell a good story. You’ll get some free rides and an earful of knowledge.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
Instead of buy first and get your private pilot certificate later, go fly now and take lessons in some rentals. You can still dream. Consider the flying lessons as more research on what to buy, making connections, etc. Also, you’re screwed - forget retirement...I could retire sooner if I didn’t have this “toy”.
 
I've heard of sellers and brokers who will price the airplane at 30% more than they want for it, just to see if some idiot will take the bait...

And then there's the buyers who make an offer of 20% less than asking and tell everyone what a great deal they got. :no:

I created a tool that I use for buying airplanes. It takes the Vref values for the various model years and options so that I can get a Vref price. I calculate the difference between Vref and asking as one metric... And then I build on that with not only the Vref values of various add-ons that are desired, but what it would cost to add them if not there, and come up with a value for what the plane is worth *to me*. Then I calculate the difference between that and asking price. Lowest number wins. Look at the logs, fly it, put in an offer, get a pre-buy, boom shakalaka.

I'm surprised at the number of horror stories I hear from others - I really haven't had any trouble with bad sellers. I've bought a couple through brokers and a couple direct. :dunno:
 
Lots of ADs have an asking price, but the aircraft is only worth as much as you will pay for it.
 
When I bought mine, it had been listed for a while, I had inquired about it but didn’t put a offer on it. They called a few days later with a lower price, after looking at, I made a lower offer and they took it.
But I spent 6 months going through ads, I knew the market, what sold, what did not.


Tom
 
8 My pos must be worth what others are asking top dollar for.

Last plane I looked at the seller said the paint was a 10. Painted 20 years ago there was corrosion all over it. He had been touching it up for years. Old engine, prop, and radios. Still wanted high market value for it.
 
9) looking for a sucker price. I know it’s not good but hoping to find some who doesn’t know better
 
I've also been looking at planes to do more of my training in and then possibly just keep it or sell it and move on to the aviation workforce. A lot of stuff I see (been looking at Grummans) are mid time engines and old radios and need ADSB and it doesn't seem like folks are factoring any of that into their pricing. Seems like everyone wants top dollar and I'm shocked they aren't putting in their adds "no low ballers I know what I got.."
 
flyingcheesehead said:
I created a tool that I use for buying airplanes. It takes the Vref values for the various model years and options so that I can get a Vref price. I calculate the difference between Vref and asking as one metric... And then I build on that with not only the Vref values of various add-ons that are desired, but what it would cost to add them if not there, and come up with a value for what the plane is worth *to me*. Then I calculate the difference between that and asking price. Lowest number wins. Look at the logs, fly it, put in an offer, get a pre-buy, boom shakalaka.
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Are you using the AOPA Vref or the subscription vRef?
 
My plane is for sale.... flash enough cash and it’s yours... I’ll start the bidding at 20% over vRef and it only goes up, not down just like an auction.
 
I learned that everything is for sale - in an interesting way.

I had a collectible Jaguar that I'd never intended selling.
That was followed by a knock on my front door.
A man from Europe was there with a briefcase.
It had cash in it.
It sold.
 
Unit74 said:
My plane is for sale.... flash enough cash and it’s yours... I’ll start the bidding at 20% over vRef and it only goes up, not down just like an auction.
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Yes, I remember when you sold the Archer. Took awhile
 
Unit74 said:
My plane is for sale.... flash enough cash and it’s yours... I’ll start the bidding at 20% over vRef and it only goes up, not down just like an auction.
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Our house if for sale, as well: cough up $100K over the most recent bank appraisal, and give me 90 days after closing to vacate, and you'll have 5,400 square feet of half-finished fixer-upper to occupy your time.
 
Rgbeard said:
I learned that everything is for sale - in an interesting way.
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With the exception of a small handful of items that have specific sentimental value, everything we own can always be sold at the right price.
 
Sentimental is the asking price, market is what someone actually pays for it.
 
I got my first plane from an airline pilot who bought a cosmetically dowdy AA-1A to teach his daughter how to fly. Once that was done, he sold it at a very attractive price. Looked dowdy, flew great, with a mid time engine in good shape. I sold it 4 years later at a fire sale price that was still more than I paid for it. I got my Traveler from someone who loved flying but apparently couldn't afford it. I got a very good price there, too. It had "C" cosmetics but the engine and airframe were in great shape. Still flying it today, and it fits my flying mission. Much of the cosmetics have been improved over time, except for exterior paint. Got a new interior and engine now, maybe paint it someday and fix the cosmetic chips and dings. Paint doesn't make the plane fly safely. Avionics and engine are a higher priority.
 
Kenny Phillips said:
Our house if for sale, as well: cough up $100K over the most recent bank appraisal, and give me 90 days after closing to vacate, and you'll have 5,400 square feet of half-finished fixer-upper to occupy your time.
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nice brag-post
 
chemgeek said:
I got my first plane from an airline pilot who bought a cosmetically dowdy AA-1A to teach his daughter how to fly. Once that was done, he sold it at a very attractive price. Looked dowdy, flew great, with a mid time engine in good shape. I sold it 4 years later at a fire sale price that was still more than I paid for it. I got my Traveler from someone who loved flying but apparently couldn't afford it. I got a very good price there, too. It had "C" cosmetics but the engine and airframe were in great shape. Still flying it today, and it fits my flying mission. Much of the cosmetics have been improved over time, except for exterior paint. Got a new interior and engine now, maybe paint it someday and fix the cosmetic chips and dings. Paint doesn't make the plane fly safely. Avionics and engine are a higher priority.
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Looked at a plane a while back where the owner did all the cosmetic stuff, nice paint, interior, even a new windshield... and nothing on the engine or upgrades the avionics.... told them that looks don't win races. The upside was i was going to be able to put in a new engine so I knew it was done, the bad side, he wasn't budging form his price..
 
Ventucky Red said:
Looked at a plane a while back where the owner did all the cosmetic stuff, nice paint, interior, even a new windshield... and nothing on the engine or upgrades the avionics.... told them that looks don't win races. The upside was i was going to be able to put in a new engine so I knew it was done, the bad side, he wasn't budging form his price..
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Some folks gotta have shiny...others want to fly.
 
When I started looking seriously in 2010, there were a LOT of people still living in 2006.

Today, 9 years later, there are still people with the same airplanes, in the same condition, just 9 years older, padlocked in the hangar, saying "the market will come back".
 
10) Vref is bull****! The people in the industry know the real value of this plane and things in it.

Sure friend. Good luck. Hope you find your sucker.

Yeah, too many people get overly emotional. I'm in the market now for a Lance and I'm either dealing with damage history (no-go for the financing), or "sentimental" pricing of the plane. The banks will finance based on value and those values are from what I've gathered so far very close to AOPA's Vref.
 
I'm finding in AK, there is a premium price to be paid for airplanes with the Alaska patina. And, I have heard from a guy that said he wanted to sell his plane, "yeah, but, she's been in AK all this time, where else will you get that experience?" Anthropomorphising an inanimate object is kinda normal for humans, but expecting that object to retain experiences like a human? C'mon, totally not worth a 25% markup. The plane is still for sale, sadly.
 
What type of lance? I got a letter from Bartlet asking if I would sell mine. Money talks, BS walks. Everyone has a price!

Also, the issue is that there are few planes for sale and are going for a premium right now. You may think it's sentimental, but when a plane goes up and has multiple offers at some "BS price", that's called capitalism.Planes are spending hours or days on themarket right now. I have seriously considered selling myself.

Freight Dog said:
10) Vref is bull****! The people in the industry know the real value of this plane and things in it.

Sure friend. Good luck. Hope you find your sucker.

Yeah, too many people get overly emotional. I'm in the market now for a Lance and I'm either dealing with damage history (no-go for the financing), or "sentimental" pricing of the plane. The banks will finance based on value and those values are from what I've gathered so far very close to AOPA's Vref.
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Unit74 said:
What type of lance? I got a letter from Bartlet asking if I would sell mine. Money talks, BS walks. Everyone has a price!

Also, the issue is that there are few planes for sale and are going for a premium right now. You may think it's sentimental, but when a plane goes up and has multiple offers at some "BS price", that's called capitalism.Planes are spending hours or days on themarket right now. I have seriously considered selling myself.
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Like these guys for my Mooney?

66191be9c7aa6a800f51ed15f7a3a2ff.jpg


Everyone hopes for someone with more money than sense buying their plane, myself included. Heck, my ideal buyer is the one who PayPals me the money sight unseen, throws a little extra for my troubles and asks me to fly it to him with a first class ticket return home, at my leisure time.

And while I heard of these cases, I’ve also heard of lottery winners. ;)

I’m a tad more into reality, and the banks and financial institutions represent that reality to me, both as a buyer and a seller. Also notice that unlike real estate, we cannot see what the plane had actually been sold for - you only see the listing leaving the final price to our imagination and hope. You’re right, it’s capitalism. One is based on hope and emotions, the other is based on data and valuation, and sometimes they reach across the divide.

I was talking with a buddy of mine who flips houses as his side gig. He told me “the bank screwed him on the last deal.

“Oh yeah? How’s that?”

“I had a buyer. He was ready to pay the asking price. But when the appraisal came, it came up way short.”

“So what did you do?”

“Sold it to him at the appraised price. What could I do? Sat on the damn house for months thinking we’ll get the full asking price. Shoulda priced it right, we wouldn’t be making all these extra payments.”

“Sooooo, how’d the bank screw you again?”

Seen it with airplanes too many times. Such a sad sight to see an abandoned plane or the one that sat for years and years.

As for what I’m looking for, a straight tail NA Lance, club seating, reasonable paint and interior - preferably having a few years before paint or interior shop are necessary. Reasonable WAAS IFR equipped with a functioning autopilot for coupled approaches and ADSB done, but I can get it done. Preferably less than 6000 hours, low to mid time engine. Pretty straight forward.
 
So you are in The $100k range?
 
Yep or a bit more if the bank will value it accordingly.
 
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Also read what is NOT in the listing. Does it list NDH (No Damage History)? If not assume there is damage history. Most damage is a show stopper, some is a non issue. As an example, a gear up landing in a Mooney is usually not an issue and you get a new / rebuilt engine and a new prop. And make sure the logs are complete and up to date, about half the price is the plane's service history.

As someone above mentioned, go to the local airport and make some friends. Find a good instructor, FAA medical examiner, and mechanic. Take an "Intro Ride" and a few lessons in a rented aircraft such as a Piper Warrior and a Cessna 172. See which one you like. It will narrow your search.
 
Pretty much anything good will sell in a few days right now. Most anything that has been sitting is either exorbitantly priced, or is a pile of ****
 
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