Malibu operating costs...

dans2992

dans2992

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Dans2992
Ok, so I'm considering thinking about investigating the possibility of a Malibu (not Mirage - prefer LOP). Yes, I am still a tire kicker at this point.

If I ever did it, I would purchase with 1-2 partners. I only fly about 100-120 hours a year, and would rather spread the costs.

So, apparently, plus one flyers rents one for $299/hr. Some folks on here were claiming that operating costs are much higher than that.

So.... is this guy just losing money when he rents it or what? Something doesn't make sense here....just wondering if anyone had any other thoughts.

I currently fly a Comanche 260B.

Dan

http://www.plusoneflyers.org/fleet/montgomery-fleet/item/16-n4363q
 
So.... is this guy just losing money when he rents it or what?
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Possibly. Is that wet? or dry?

My cost per hour in a Matrix is higher than the rental rate.
 
Looking up the N number, it is a 1984 model. Maybe it is already paid off so he doesn't need as high of an hourly rate to help offset a payment?

-Brian
 
Have no clue about the cost.
But for a Malibu, does it fall into the "if you have to ask, you can't afford it"? LOL
 
I've talked to them about that plane, it seems a hell of a deal. I don't think he is making money at that, but I don't think it is costing him either.
 
A friend of mine bought one with a Cont TSIO-550, we both went through the insurance training in it. It's actually pretty economical from a fuel perspective once you get up high. Incredibly comfortable airplane for crew and passengers.

He has not had it long enough for me to really calculate an hourly cost - it's going to be incredibly variable based on who maintains it, how smart of a owner you are, how nice of condition it's in, and how lucky you are...
 
It burns 16-21 GPH...

Assuming $5.00 per gallon that is $80.00-$105.00 per hour in fuel.
 
The hanger next to me has a 2010 Mirage. The owner says without figuring in the cost of the plane, it is about $260.00 an hour to operate.
 
Ok, so probably about $100-$120 more than the Comanche.
 
I've heard nothing but expensive things about the Malibu.

You want a high speed single, consider a high end 210 or experimental
 
I love my Matrix...absolutely fantastic plane. Pressurization just makes the 'bu better!
 
dans2992 said:
Ok, so I'm considering thinking about investigating the possibility of a Malibu (not Mirage - prefer LOP). Yes, I am still a tire kicker at this point.



If I ever did it, I would purchase with 1-2 partners. I only fly about 100-120 hours a year, and would rather spread the costs.



So, apparently, plus one flyers rents one for $299/hr. Some folks on here were claiming that operating costs are much higher than that.



So.... is this guy just losing money when he rents it or what? Something doesn't make sense here....just wondering if anyone had any other thoughts.



I currently fly a Comanche 260B.



Dan



http://www.plusoneflyers.org/fleet/montgomery-fleet/item/16-n4363q
Click to expand...

Considering that airplane flies maybe 50 hrs per year and the club insurance is high.....Gus is NOT making any money on that airplane.
 
Kelvin said:
I love my Matrix...absolutely fantastic plane. Pressurization just makes the 'bu better!
Click to expand...


Why did you choose the Matrix over the Malibu? They are the same except for pressurization, correct?
 
Fearless Tower said:
Considering that airplane flies maybe 50 hrs per year and the club insurance is high.....Gus is NOT making any money on that airplane.
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Based on Flight aware, looks like much more than 50 hrs...
 
markb5900 said:
But for a Malibu, does it fall into the "if you have to ask, you can't afford it"? LOL
Click to expand...

I realize you're joking with this, but there's a point. One thing that aviation should teach all of us is that there is always someone with more money than you.

I could operate a Lancair 360 and not think twice about any costs that come up with it, so I'd never have to ask. The 310 requires thought, but mostly I don't have to ask. I could probably swing operating a 340/414, but that would require even more careful planning, a lot of owner MX (more than I do now), and a certain amount of luck, so I should ask. I could no way afford a turboprop, and even a "cheap" Lear, so I'd have to ask. All the smart people who come into the Twin Cessna forums ask about costs before buying.

Regarding the Malibu, everyone I've talked to who's owned them for a while has said they aren't economical at all from a MX perspective. Fuel, yes, economical, but that's where it ends. If you go in with a couple of partners and the plane is going to be flown several hundred hours per year, though, then I would suspect that you could get the costs to be a lot more reasonable. Doing your own research and owner MX where applicable will help keep costs down. I can't see you operating one for under $300/hr and would expect closer to $400 or more.

If I upgraded to something with turbos/pressurization, I would likely want to have at least one partner.
 
dans2992 said:
Based on Flight aware, looks like much more than 50 hrs...
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May have gotten some more folks checked out. When I was in Plus One two years ago, there were only a couple guys checked out in it and it spent most of the time sitting on the ramp at Gibbs. Insurance mins required over 500 TT and some other things and the average club member didn't qualify. But I also think the rate then was well over $300 per hour then.
 
Fearless Tower said:
May have gotten some more folks checked out. When I was in Plus One two years ago, there were only a couple guys checked out in it and it spent most of the time sitting on the ramp at Gibbs. Insurance mins required over 500 TT and some other things and the average club member didn't qualify. But I also think the rate then was well over $300 per hour then.
Click to expand...

From my understanding that plane mostly got used by some European guys who would fly in and use it to travel around for a month and return it.
 
dans2992 said:
Why did you choose the Matrix over the Malibu? They are the same except for pressurization, correct?
Click to expand...

I am progressing towards a turboprop one step at a time...for the most part, yes...they are the same...

So far I have owned and flown a
172SP---300 hours
182T--850 hours
PA46 Matrix--??? 200 hours and counting

Next step up I hope to get an Epic or a TBM700/850. If I can keep my health and my business on track, it looks possible...

I wanted a Matrix instead of an older Malibu for reliability. I have Matrix serial number #1. It has been very reliable. I may move into pressurization afer I get about 500 or so hours on this airframe...then on to the turboprop...but honestly, thats jsust my best guess at how it will go...

I will say this...the Matrix flie well at 4k MSL and at 20K MSL...this makes it a moderately unique plane...it has proven very versatile in getting around or above weather...
 
dans2992 said:
Why did you choose the Matrix over the Malibu? They are the same except for pressurization, correct?
Click to expand...

I don't know too many Matrix owners, but number one reason I hear is the increased useful load--with less plumbing the empty weight is reduced.

The other reason is cost--it is slightly less to acquire and maintain than a comparable year/time Mirage. However, in most cases if you have Matrix money you have Mirage money--but a few folks that don't feel they need to pressurization prefer to save a few bucks.
 
It's not just plumbing, you have to build a pressure vessel inside it to make a Malibu.
 
Kelvin said:
I am progressing towards a turboprop one step at a time...for the most part, yes...they are the same...

So far I have owned and flown a
172SP---300 hours
182T--850 hours
PA46 Matrix--??? 200 hours and counting

Next step up I hope to get an Epic or a TBM700/850. If I can keep my health and my business on track, it looks possible...

I wanted a Matrix instead of an older Malibu for reliability. I have Matrix serial number #1. It has been very reliable. I may move into pressurization afer I get about 500 or so hours on this airframe...then on to the turboprop...but honestly, thats jsust my best guess at how it will go...

I will say this...the Matrix flie well at 4k MSL and at 20K MSL...this makes it a moderately unique plane...it has proven very versatile in getting around or above weather...
Click to expand...

Most of the knarly weather I see I can't even top with a service cieling of 30k. Pressurized AC are great for pax comfort, but piston pressurized... is really just the "I can't afford a turbine" area.
 
James331 said:
Most of the knarly weather I see I can't even top with a service cieling of 30k. Pressurized AC are great for pax comfort, but piston pressurized... is really just the "I can't afford a turbine" area.
Click to expand...

Yeah, thing is, there are a lot of people who can't afford a turbine.:lol: Pressurization on a recip is an expensive option tough.
 
Dan, you should join MMOPA. It will cost you some $'s but you will find out what you need to know and in the long run will save you a whole lot more money than buying a years membership. There is an incredible amount of misinformation here on malibus from people who knew someone whose cousin had one :rolleyes:, and from others who read what someone else wrote who had heard from the other cousin who knew a friend who had one. :lol:
 
Yep. I should have mentioned this yesterday. If you are looking into the PA46 airframe, it will be the best $250.00 you have ever spent.



sixpacker said:
Dan, you should join MMOPA. It will cost you some $'s but you will find out what you need to know and in the long run will save you a whole lot more money than buying a years membership. There is an incredible amount of misinformation here on malibus from people who knew someone whose cousin had one :rolleyes:, and from others who read what someone else wrote who had heard from the other cousin who knew a friend who had one. :lol:
Click to expand...
 
It mostly comes down to how many hours per year you're going to fly it. With a more capable bird your fixed costs per year will be much higher. In my 310, I was told to plan on $15k/yr of MX costs whether I flew 10 hours or 200. Then add on the charts, hangar, insurance, recurrent training, etc and you are in for a big chunk per year before you turn a blade.

$25k / 250 hours is $100/hr

$25k / 75 hours is $333/hr


The rest is variable costs.
 
James_Dean said:
It mostly comes down to how many hours per year you're going to fly it. With a more capable bird your fixed costs per year will be much higher. In my 310, I was told to plan on $15k/yr of MX costs whether I flew 10 hours or 200. Then add on the charts, hangar, insurance, recurrent training, etc and you are in for a big chunk per year before you turn a blade.

$25k / 250 hours is $100/hr

$25k / 75 hours is $333/hr


The rest is variable costs.
Click to expand...

Yep, usage is the biggest variable in overall cost.
 
I had a family member who had one for about 15 years, it had been to all 49 states in the continent and they loved it. The room and seating plus the speed were really nice. I got the privelege to right seat in it a number of times.

He sold it in 2013 because he and his partner just weren't using it as much as they were in years past. I talked with him at length about the true cost and he was open about it, since we're family I have no reason to suspect he was sugar coating anything. Initially (although knowing I wouldn't bite) he offered it to me for a song. According to him the maintenance costs were really reasonable. Annuals were obviously a little more costly, but not unreasonable. They had a bunch of issues with the backup vacuum pump for a while, apparently it was electrically actuated and the clutch would fail constantly. I guess they were able to STC going direct drive or electric or something and never had an issue again. He also mentioned a few nitpicky things with the gear, specifcially some actuator switch would go out and that was always a PITA to find but he said suprising there were not things that blew his mind on cost.

What really became the driver was the training requirements for insurance. Essentially they had to do an annual type certification class and only a handful of people in the country host the class. Regionally a few 'bu owners would get together and fly the guy out to do the training. His beef was that initially the training was really good, and the guy being a retired Piper engineer was really thorough but over time the content became less and less meaningful.

Between the cost of the class and the fact they just weren't using it they decided to sell. Maintenance was never even a consideration...
 
James331 said:
I've heard nothing but expensive things about the Malibu.

You want a high speed single, consider a high end 210 or experimental
Click to expand...

I've heard horror stories about the P210 also. Question is - which is a bigger MX hog...? :)
 
James_Dean said:
It mostly comes down to how many hours per year you're going to fly it. With a more capable bird your fixed costs per year will be much higher. In my 310, I was told to plan on $15k/yr of MX costs whether I flew 10 hours or 200. Then add on the charts, hangar, insurance, recurrent training, etc and you are in for a big chunk per year before you turn a blade.

$25k / 250 hours is $100/hr

$25k / 75 hours is $333/hr


The rest is variable costs.
Click to expand...

Yep, that's why for my level of usage, I'm thinking having a partner or two would be best...
 
sixpacker said:
Dan, you should join MMOPA. It will cost you some $'s but you will find out what you need to know and in the long run will save you a whole lot more money than buying a years membership. There is an incredible amount of misinformation here on malibus from people who knew someone whose cousin had one :rolleyes:, and from others who read what someone else wrote who had heard from the other cousin who knew a friend who had one. :lol:
Click to expand...

I will do that once I'm more serious. Just kicking tires for now.... :)
 
James331 said:
I've heard nothing but expensive things about the Malibu.

You want a high speed single, consider a high end 210 or experimental
Click to expand...

You'd be better off with a Malibu over a P210 any day.
 
Don't forget it won't fit into a 40' T-hangar. I've also heard that it doesn't ride turbulence too well due to relatively light wing loading.
 
paflyer said:
Don't forget it won't fit into a 40' T-hangar. I've also heard that it doesn't ride turbulence too well due to relatively light wing loading.
Click to expand...

There are trades you have to make to operate at those altitudes on low power, especially if you want speed. The Malibu really does a lot with 310-350hp. I'm surprised RAM doesn't have a major upgrade package for it. I guess the common upgrade though is a turbine.
 
James331 said:
Most of the knarly weather I see I can't even top with a service cieling of 30k. Pressurized AC are great for pax comfort, but piston pressurized... is really just the "I can't afford a turbine" area.
Click to expand...

Even a G-V can't top everything. The higher you go, the more options you have.
 
guardrail said:
I had a family member who had one for about 15 years, it had been to all 49 states in the continent and they loved it. The room and seating plus the speed were really nice. I got the privelege to right seat in it a number of times.

He sold it in 2013 because he and his partner just weren't using it as much as they were in years past. I talked with him at length about the true cost and he was open about it, since we're family I have no reason to suspect he was sugar coating anything. Initially (although knowing I wouldn't bite) he offered it to me for a song. According to him the maintenance costs were really reasonable. Annuals were obviously a little more costly, but not unreasonable. They had a bunch of issues with the backup vacuum pump for a while, apparently it was electrically actuated and the clutch would fail constantly. I guess they were able to STC going direct drive or electric or something and never had an issue again. He also mentioned a few nitpicky things with the gear, specifcially some actuator switch would go out and that was always a PITA to find but he said suprising there were not things that blew his mind on cost.

What really became the driver was the training requirements for insurance. Essentially they had to do an annual type certification class and only a handful of people in the country host the class. Regionally a few 'bu owners would get together and fly the guy out to do the training. His beef was that initially the training was really good, and the guy being a retired Piper engineer was really thorough but over time the content became less and less meaningful.

Between the cost of the class and the fact they just weren't using it they decided to sell. Maintenance was never even a consideration...
Click to expand...

This is a pretty good description of my experience. On the annual training I probably know which retired Piper engineer you're referring to :D you can mix things up a bit though by doing your annual training at different places. You can always learn something new from someone else. I wouldn't go to the same place year after year besides getting boring you won't really be picking up any new skills. There is a reason why resale values remain high in general and Piper continues to make new ones. The people who own them are actually mostly having a really good experience.

I'm eyeing the next Meridian though... A little birdie shared with me some details of what is coming later this year. I cannot say any more since I've been sworn to secrecy but I'm not divulging anything more than is already in the public domain since there is an image of it on MMOPA (from a distance) for those of you on there.
 
paflyer said:
Don't forget it won't fit into a 40' T-hangar. I've also heard that it doesn't ride turbulence too well due to relatively light wing loading.
Click to expand...

I'll bet owners will absolutely love those long wings should the motor ever quit!
 
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