Maintaining "By The Book"

D

Danny Dub

Pre-Flight
Joined
Feb 7, 2018
Messages
80
Display Name
Display name:
Danny Dub
New to plane ownership.

I want to operate and maintain my plane in the safest, most economical and LEGAL way. I am learning the ins and outs of this and the question I keep asking myself is:

What percentage of GA older planes are actually maintained and operated by the book and totally legally? It seems to do this completely correctly is quite a challenge. Do most of you pride yourself on near airline quality procedures or are we mostly just trying to get by? Do we let little things slide? Do we do technically unauthorized repairs that we know won't get discovered?

Thanks guys. I want to be safe and legal, and I am just trying to find my comfort zone.
 
Most

And airline procedures dont always make sense/safe for some GA ops.

But most GA planes Ive seen are are maintained IAW the FARs, I also dont think there is a difference between newer or older planes, actually it can be easier to maintain older air frames, many are more simple and have fewer ADs.
 
James331 said:
Most

And airline procedures dont always make sense/safe for some GA ops.

But most GA planes Ive seen are are maintained IAW the FARs, I also dont think there is a difference between newer or older planes, actually it can be easier to maintain older air frames, many are more simple and have fewer ADs.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the reply. It is my intention to be in that group especially as my son is going to be learning to fly in my plane. Not the time to save a few bucks at the risk of problems later.

Point taken on airline procedures. I guess I'm using that term generally to mean a very consistent and verifiable operation of the plane.
 
My maintenance policies:

1. Airworthiness immediately, safety is ASAP ( which are not always the same ) ADs immediately, pretty much everything else is ASAP. Shoulder harnesses were ASAP. My cherokee only had lap belts. First $$$ spent were for shoulder harnesses in the front. I've been migrating to LED for all external lighting. Due to age, the cherokee is not subject to the same external lighting requirements as newer aircraft. Now it does satisfy the current rules. This summer I'll have 50 yr old U joints on the yokes replaced. A bit more sloppy than I like, so it's time.Ties in perfectly with my knee replacement, so the shop doesn't have to rush. Replaced the aluminum battery cables with Bogarts a few years ago while down for an engine overhaul.

2. Comfort - closely related to safety. Example: after 35 years, the foam in the seats was pretty much disintegrated, so both front seats were redone. Back seat was redone at a later date because I rarely have backseat drivers. This category is "when I have a bit of spare change"

3. Cosmetics such as new paint. Probably never. Other things to spend money on.
 
Danny Dub said:
Thanks for the reply. It is my intention to be in that group especially as my son is going to be learning to fly in my plane. Not the time to save a few bucks at the risk of problems later.

Point taken on airline procedures. I guess I'm using that term generally to mean a very consistent and verifiable operation of the plane.
Click to expand...
1970 airplane and all maintenance by the book! Plus upgrades as money allows. What kind of airplane are you flying?
 
I'd guess that a pretty decent percentage of the older fleet is maintained in substantial compliance with the FARS, but not in STRICT compliance. I suspect that many owners do little, relatively minor fixes here and there that might not fall within the scope of preventive maintenance.
 
bradg33 said:
I'd guess that a pretty decent percentage of the older fleet is maintained in substantial compliance with the FARS, but not in STRICT compliance. I suspect that many owners do little, relatively minor fixes here and there that might not fall within the scope of preventive maintenance.
Click to expand...

You can do more than just preventative maintenance if you’re AP is in the loop. For example I removed my failing electric boost pump, sent it to get overhauled, and then let him reinstall it. Saved myself about an hour of labor. Used his skills to insure it was done properly and by the book.
 
teejayevans said:
You can do more than just preventative maintenance if you’re AP is in the loop. For example I removed my failing electric boost pump, sent it to get overhauled, and then let him reinstall it. Saved myself about an hour of labor. Used his skills to insure it was done properly and by the book.
Click to expand...

That's another good point, you'll find you have the best maintained plane when you're hands on, doing owner assist under a good APIA is the best possible way of doing things.

Also it's not the shop, it's the mechanic, just like CFIs, don't look for a food school/shop, seek out the man who's best to do the work and go to the shop he's currently working for or owns.
 
James331 said:
Most

And airline procedures dont always make sense/safe for some GA ops.

But most GA planes Ive seen are are maintained IAW the FARs, I also dont think there is a difference between newer or older planes, actually it can be easier to maintain older air frames, many are more simple and have fewer ADs.
Click to expand...
I'd take it a step further and say vast majority...We all hear of the pencil whipped horror stories, but I think they are rare. I maintain mine by the book, but that includes nearly all allowed owner maintenance being done by me. Or, to put it another way, I have yet to request my mechanic do something that I couldn't legally do myself. I'm not talking about me doing things and having my mechanic sign off--that's something that, although also legal, I don't do (but I don't criticize those that do, if done right). All my owner maintenance I sign off the logs. Just mentioning it since you said, "most economical".
I'm not sure why you think it is a "challenge"...could you expound?
 
Danny Dub said:
maintained and operated by the book and totally legally
Click to expand...
"By the book" and "totally legal" are not necessarily all-inclusive or related. Maintaining/operating your aircraft per the FARs is the most important and the only way to say legal. Whereas "by the book" is highly subjective and ultimately depends on what your definition is. So with out more info can't comment. For example, will you be complying with OEM Mandatory SBs or not? They are not required to be legal for Part 91 ops but are considered by some to be included when aircraft maintained "by the book."
 
Bell206 said:
"By the book" and "totally legal" are not necessarily all-inclusive or related. Maintaining/operating your aircraft per the FARs is the most important and the only way to say legal. Whereas "by the book" is highly subjective and ultimately depends on what your definition is. So with out more info can't comment. For example, will you be complying with OEM Mandatory SBs or not? They are not required to be legal for Part 91 ops but are considered by some to be included when aircraft maintained "by the book."
Click to expand...

Exactly

Lol the Tampico manual says to replace the starting battery every three years despite every other aircraft manufacturer saying to follow the battery manufacturer's instructions which says to do annual capacity testing and replace when it no longer meets the minimum specs.

There are aircraft manuals that say to replace the seatbelts every 10 years too.

"By the book" could easily be the most wasteful strategy possible or not.
 
tawood said:
I'd take it a step further and say vast majority...We all hear of the pencil whipped horror stories, but I think they are rare. I maintain mine by the book, but that includes nearly all allowed owner maintenance being done by me. Or, to put it another way, I have yet to request my mechanic do something that I couldn't legally do myself. I'm not talking about me doing things and having my mechanic sign off--that's something that, although also legal, I don't do (but I don't criticize those that do, if done right). All my owner maintenance I sign off the logs. Just mentioning it since you said, "most economical".
I'm not sure why you think it is a "challenge"...could you expound?
Click to expand...


I guess "challenge" is not the right word. I plan to do most if not all allowable work as the owner, and obviously have an AP do the remainder.

Ok some examples...

Egt and CHT guages are probably not accurate. Ground the plane to fix, just make the adjustments in my head, or ignore completely?

Com 2 is barely workable. Intermmittent at best. Same questions.

Oil pressure reads a little low on the guage but we hooked up another new guage to check and actual pressures are good. (Guage is just tired). What to do?

Etc etc etc.

These are just a few examples I can come up with. Not as black and white as complying with ADs or getting it annualed. These are often old planes that are safe but not everything is in like new condition. My car has everything in like new condition. Trying to figure out what the happy place in the middle is.
 
Ah, I see...well, its hard to find an old plane without some quirks...my com 2 doesn't transmit unless I "wiggle it a little", while my com 1 requires a tap on the glass to get the display to full brightness. My own experience is to ALWAYS do what is legally required to be repaired, then only mess with the stuff that you feel is a safety problem, or that just bugs you. Some things you can live with...literally and legally.
 
I believe if you notice a problem,fix it immediately,letting little things pile up,is not good practice,also cheaper in the long run.
 
frfly172 said:
I believe if you notice a problem,fix it immediately,letting little things pile up,is not good practice,also cheaper in the long run.
Click to expand...

As I mentioned in my project creep thread, most of the time in my experience when I'm trying to fix a problem, I uncover or cause other problems which is different type of pile up altogether.
 
Timbeck2 said:
What plane are we talking about Danny?
Click to expand...


I have a Cessna 175 that we are getting fixed up. I plan on being a stickler for proper maintenance, both preventative and reactive. Just trying to see where people's heads are at. I figured on an anonymous board people might admit to being a little sloppy. Glad to see people are doing better than that.
 
Timbeck2 said:
As I mentioned in my project creep thread, most of the time in my experience when I'm trying to fix a problem, I uncover or cause other problems which is different type of pile up altogether.
Click to expand...
Yes, my experience too...50 year old planes have a way of doing that.
 
I think just about everyone is a stickler for proper maintenance. But you will find that there are times that you have to opt to postpone maintenance. For example: at annual when your checkbook is already stretched waffuh thin (Monty Python ref:) for problems you hadn't anticipated and the IA says "this needs to be fixed but it doesn't need to be fixed right now." Been there, done that, doing that now.
 
Timbeck2 said:
I think just about everyone is a stickler for proper maintenance. But you will find that there are times that you have to opt to postpone maintenance. For example: at annual when your checkbook is already stretched waffuh thin (Monty Python ref:) for problems you hadn't anticipated and the IA says "this needs to be fixed but it doesn't need to be fixed right now." Been there, done that, doing that now.
Click to expand...
2 years ago my mechanic said, "Your brake pistons are leaking a little...next year we better replace them." Last year he said, "Meh, they're not leaking as bad as I thought. You could probably go another couple of years." So I am.
 
James331 said:
...most GA planes Ive seen are are maintained IAW the FARs, I also dont think there is a difference between newer or older planes, actually it can be easier to maintain older air frames, many are more simple and have fewer ADs.
Click to expand...

We must live in different worlds. My experience is that for older planes (antique/classic, I don't mean, say, a 1970s Cessna), the pilot/owner is usually doing a lot of work beyond the scope of "preventative maintenance" as defined in the FARs. That's not necessarily a bad thing; often the owner of an antique airplane knows more about it than the A&P who trained on, and mostly works on, modern airplanes. Legal and safe aren't always the same thing.

OTOH, if you don't have the appropriate skills, you shouldn't be doing any work on a plane, whether it's legal pilot performed preventative maintenance or not.
 
Dana said:
We must live in different worlds. My experience is that for older planes (antique/classic, I don't mean, say, a 1970s Cessna), the pilot/owner is usually doing a lot of work beyond the scope of "preventative maintenance" as defined in the FARs. That's not necessarily a bad thing; often the owner of an antique airplane knows more about it than the A&P who trained on, and mostly works on, modern airplanes. Legal and safe aren't always the same thing.

OTOH, if you don't have the appropriate skills, you shouldn't be doing any work on a plane, whether it's legal pilot performed preventative maintenance or not.
Click to expand...

And the above is 100% legal as long as his APIA knows about it, checks it over and puts his ink to it.
 
Danny Dub said:
New to plane ownership.
Click to expand...
Welcome to hell! :D
Not really much of a joke, pretty serious now.

Danny Dub said:
I want to operate and maintain my plane in the safest, most economical and LEGAL way.
Click to expand...
Well, you can have all 3. That's lesson #1.
Pick 1. :D
Really. If you want safe, it will also need to be legal. Neither of those is economical. Be ready to spend money.
 
Danny Dub said:
I guess "challenge" is not the right word. I plan to do most if not all allowable work as the owner, and obviously have an AP do the remainder.

Ok some examples...

Egt and CHT guages are probably not accurate. Ground the plane to fix, just make the adjustments in my head, or ignore completely?
Click to expand...
Neither are required by FARs.
Com 2 is barely workable. Intermmittent at best. Same questions.
Click to expand...
I put this in the Safety category. If you fly in congested area, then this may be higher priority than merely ASAP. Having 2 COMs is handy, using #2 for Guard, weather, etc.
Oil pressure reads a little low on the guage but we hooked up another new guage to check and actual pressures are good. (Guage is just tired). What to do?
Click to expand...
Your decision whether this is ASAP or "overhaul or buy replacement whenever you can get to it"
Etc etc etc.

These are just a few examples I can come up with. Not as black and white as complying with ADs or getting it annualed. These are often old planes that are safe but not everything is in like new condition. My car has everything in like new condition. Trying to figure out what the happy place in the middle is.
Click to expand...
 
James331 said:
And the above is 100% legal as long as his APIA knows about it, checks it over and puts his ink to it.
Click to expand...

Under a very strict reading of the FAR's, the A&P must actually supervise the work and be available, in person, to answer questions.

14 CFR 43.3(d): non-A&P can do work in mechanic supervises and "if the supervisor personally observes the work being done to the extent necessary to ensure that it is being done properly and if the supervisor is readily available, in person, for consultation."

While that rule is almost certainly routinely stretched to mean "I do the work (while my A&P is at home), A&P looks it over later and signs off," that's not really what it says. The rule itself really seems to envision situations where the supervisor is on the other side of the hangar or working on another part of the plane. He doesn't have to look over your shoulder the entire time, but he's supposed to be there.
 
murphey said:
Neither are required by FARs.
Click to expand...

The FARs aren't the only authority for required equipment. Would need to review the TCDS and/or POH to ensure it's not required by the type certificate, too.
 
murphey said:
Neither are required by FARs.
I put this in the Safety category. If you fly in congested area, then this may be higher priority than merely ASAP. Having 2 COMs is handy, using #2 for Guard, weather, etc.
Your decision whether this is ASAP or "overhaul or buy replacement whenever you can get to it"
Click to expand...

Oil pressure and temp are two of the instruments I'd REALLY want to work.
 
0. Buy the best airplane you can find/afford. (low time, recent year, lots of engine time left)
1. Find and pay a good mechanic. Talk with him about him making sure he buys the RIGHT PARTS!
2. Keep the plane stock (as possible).
3. Have the time and money to get the plane repaired if it breaks down at a far away airport.
 
Last edited:
Danny Dub said:
I plan on being a stickler for proper maintenance
Click to expand...

With this comment in mind, you should build a solid foundation of knowledge and know your responsibilities as an owner per 91.403 and 91.405. From there you can start your own personal subjective journey to maintaining/operating your aircraft.

A good place to start: read the FAA’s “Plane Sense” and get a basic 411 on plane ownership right from the horse’s mouth. After that, look through the various other guidance available (ACs, Orders, etc) to build your knowledge level. The AOPA/EAA also provide some good reference materials.

In time, you’ll work out which “stickle” needs to be dealt with based on your personal criteria. But until then, a side note to your list of aircraft disc examples above: the rules require everything must work on an aircraft and that any item which does not function properly must be repaired, or if permitted, removed or deferred.

And so the journey begins…

Plane Sense
https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aviation/media/faa-h-8083-19A.pdf
 
bradg33 said:
Under a very strict reading of the FAR's, the A&P must actually supervise the work and be available, in person, to answer questions.

Read it again. It says "to the extent necessary" and then leaves it to the mechanic to define "necessary". It also says "readily available". That doesn't mean sitting on a chair in the hangar watching you work. SOme defined "readily" as being in the same building or on the same airport, some say in the same city, some in the same state, and some in the same country. Once again, it is the MECHANIC'S definition, not yours.

14 CFR 43.3(d): non-A&P can do work in mechanic supervises and "if the supervisor personally observes the work being done to the extent necessary to ensure that it is being done properly and if the supervisor is readily available, in person, for consultation."

While that rule is almost certainly routinely stretched to mean "I do the work (while my A&P is at home), A&P looks it over later and signs off," that's not really what it says. The rule itself really seems to envision situations where the supervisor is on the other side of the hangar or working on another part of the plane. He doesn't have to look over your shoulder the entire time, but he's supposed to be there.
Click to expand...
..................
 
To your 175,
Buy a Cessna 100 service manual follow it for all servicing and repairs.
When these were built they were built stout, there isn't much to go wrong with it, but there are a couple things that need attention that are not well covered in the 100 S/M.
The trim actuator for the elevator is under the right hand stab. remove it, wash it in stoddard solvent insure all old grease is removed, then check for wear of the jack screw, then re-grease and replace, being certain you get the throws correct, clean and re-lube all your cables and inspect for corrosion, some 172/175s were produced with galvanized steel cables most are now rusting away.
All the cessna's of the era came from the factory with McCauley 3 piece wheels and bendix brakes. Upgrade them as soon as possible with a wheel and brake kit from Cleveland.
McCauley 3 piece wheels have a magnesium center section that most are rotten, and fail at the most inoportune time and ruin your day. (if not your aircraft)
Bendix brakes scare me, the little spring keys that hold the disk in place rust away then allow the disk to flop sideways and lock the wheel with obvious results.
The next and probably the worse airframe discrepancy is corrosion in the forward spar carry thru. To replace it and repair any other corrosion in that area will be over $10k
To check this area simply gain access to the upper door post to spar area, you will see a row of -6 rivets at the top of the door post. place a flat blade screw driver beside the Rivets and strike with your hand to see if the rivet head will come off. If any do you have big problems, the bucktail of the rivet has corroded away.
 
weirdjim said:
..................
Click to expand...
Yo,,, Jim, The only time that the FAA will contest this issue is when some thing bad has happened, What do you believe they will say about your supervision then.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top