Magical Mystery Bus TFR

Dave Siciliano

Dave Siciliano

Final Approach
Joined
Feb 27, 2005
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Dallas, Texas
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Display name:
Dave Siciliano
Has everyone kept up with this wonderful TFR that encumbers what must be 1/3rd of a state any many airports?

http://tfr.faa.gov/save_pages/detail_1_1284.html

When I left Wisconsin yesterday, there were 72 TFRs posted on the FAA web site. Many were standard, but several were complex and this one covered an area of movement. This is simply crazy! I planned a vacation a year ago and had to make deposits well in advance. No refund cancellation policy on a home and this pops up at the last minute. I was able to go over it, but what if it had popped up somewhere I couldn't circumnavigate? I asked were I was staying and Presidential TFRs weren't an exception to their policy: emergency evacuation was.

Where does this nonsense end? We all know much of this is campaigning not Presidential business.

Why can't we have a more accommodative policy if we must be in an area or have to overfly? If at feeder airports, why can't we depart if we immediately point the plane outward? They know who we are, or can; the planes are registered with the FAA; with a squawk and clearance they know where we are: let us continue to function around these crazy pop-up TFRs.

I'm just fed up with these and the nuc plants and stadiums aren't even depicted.

Best,

Dave
 
I saw that while while doing some preliminary flight planning last night

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Often you can get a departure clearance from the local ATC but it's still somewhat nonsensical as I doubt Al Kyduh checks TFRs and if he does it is for targeting.
 
I've seen where the TFR does allow some activities outside the 10 mile ring if on a flight plan with a squawk assigned. Good for them. Still, these roving TFRs can be the worst.

TFRs used to be an unusual exception, now, on any longer trip, one will probably pass or deal with several.

Best,

Dave
 
Dave Siciliano said:
I've seen where the TFR does allow some activities outside the 10 mile ring if on a flight plan with a squawk assigned. Good for them. Still, these roving TFRs can be the worst.

TFRs used to be an unusual exception, now, on any longer trip, one will probably pass or deal with several.

Best,

Dave
Click to expand...
And it wasn't even that long ago that TFRs were an exception. When I was flying around LA in 2005 (with <$3 avgas), TFRs were far and few between. There was the DC one, but that was about it...
 
ScottM said:
And that means what exactly?

It is larger than some countries and neutrinos too. But I am not catching onto the significance of the observation.
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It means if they put one over Rhode Island we could claim that the federal government is interfering with interstate commerce.
Ooooh, this might be good.
Get the Civil Liberties guys involved...or the Libertarians...or Librarians?
 
ScottM said:
And that means what exactly?

It is larger than some countries and neutrinos too. But I am not catching onto the significance of the observation.
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I take it to mean that the TFR is incredibly large... And I agree. It's friggin' huge. The significance of it's size?? In principle none, in practice a larger area creates a larger inconvenience in that it impacts more people.
 
I hope no one is insinuating that this is a new occurrence. These TFRs are bull**** and have been for more than one administration.
 
ScottM said:
And that means what exactly?

It is larger than some countries and neutrinos too. But I am not catching onto the significance of the observation.
Click to expand...

It's an observation of the relative size that put it in better context for me. Circles on part of a sectional don't give me the same context. However, I have a pretty good sense of how big New Jersey is and I consider a TFR the size of New Jersey to be excessively large.
A neutrino is a pointless comparison, but states - even the smaller ones - cover a large amount of land. And I can get a better mental picture of the impact of a TFR covering an entire state than of one defined by red circles.
 
Just look at all of the airports within the defined area. There are flight schools and other operators at those fields that will loose business with no way to bill the Gov't for lost income. Their fixed expenses will not go away.

It's hard enough when flight schools lose business because of the weather, tough times in the economy, but to lose business for a presidential candidates fund raiser trip is criminal.
 
jandersen said:
I take it to mean that the TFR is incredibly large... And I agree. It's friggin' huge. The significance of it's size?? In principle none, in practice a larger area creates a larger inconvenience in that it impacts more people.
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Is it larger than any other time? Or is it the same size it has been since 9/11? I guess there could be a whine to make if this was unusual but sadly it is not. These tfrs have been like this for a long time and the roving tar is not a new invention either.
 
Dave Siciliano said:
I've seen where the TFR does allow some activities outside the 10 mile ring if on a flight plan with a squawk assigned. Good for them. Still, these roving TFRs can be the worst.

TFRs used to be an unusual exception, now, on any longer trip, one will probably pass or deal with several.

Best,

Dave
Click to expand...

Dave,
I don't understand your point. TFR's have been around since 9/11 - almost ten years. They may be new or somewhat unique in different parts of the country but on the east coast, they're fairly common. They are certainly not unusual. I check for them before every flight - as required.
 
sba55 said:
And it wasn't even that long ago that TFRs were an exception. When I was flying around LA in 2005 (with <$3 avgas), TFRs were far and few between. There was the DC one, but that was about it...
Click to expand...


You may want to review the difference between a TFR and the SFRA around Washington DC. There's nothing exceptional or unusual, unfortunately, about TFR's.
 
David said:
You may want to review the difference between a TFR and the SFRA around Washington DC. There's nothing exceptional or unusual, unfortunately, about TFR's.
Click to expand...

At the point in time he described, it was just a TFR.
 
The other problem with them is that it can be hard to catch the smaller ones. Friday, I planned a flight to within 1mile of a TFR that I knew to go live around the time of my arrival. When I pulled a DUATS briefing, the TFR was hidden somewhere in the sea of FDC notams. The automatic briefing services should really be a bit better to sort stuff for relevance, e.g. to highlight things like TFRs or airport closures that are close to the intended path of flight. I dont really care whether the windsock is only dimly lit at some strip 99miles off my course, I do care whether I will loose my ticket for 6 months by penetrating a TFR because 'the Biden' decides to visit a community college in bf nowhere, Minnesota.
 
From the FAA TFR website note the disclaimer: if these aren't authoritative, why are they here?

I never said they were new. I said they are become prolific and disruptive along with being difficult to read and avoid at times when they needn't be. There were 72 TFRs last Sunday. While some were standard, many weren't and one must read a lot of boiler plate verbiage just to determine when and where along with what the restrictions are. This one was moving and encumbered a large area. We wonder why GA has issues. For NORDO folks flying off a small uncontrolled field, heaven help them if they don't have a GPS displaying these (huge threat to POTUS of course.)

All of us don't always fly on IFR flight plans talking to Center all the time and have a GPS unit with TFRs on it. Some of us plan trips well in advance, put down non-refundable deposits and can't move them easily. I don't agree with losing these because someone is out campaigning.

If this is essential Presidential business, I'll swallow hard; this is mostly campaigning.

Best,

Dave













Depicted TFR data may not be a complete listing. Pilots should not use the information on this website for flight planning purposes. For the latest information, call your local Flight Service Station at 1-800-WX-BRIEF.
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With respect, and as others have mentioned, TFRs like this have been a way of life for nearly 10 years. Here on the east coast we've been complaining about them for a long time, and they certainly do not always pertain to official Presidential (or vice-Presidential) business.
 
weilke said:
The other problem with them is that it can be hard to catch the smaller ones. Friday, I planned a flight to within 1mile of a TFR that I knew to go live around the time of my arrival. When I pulled a DUATS briefing, the TFR was hidden somewhere in the sea of FDC notams. The automatic briefing services should really be a bit better to sort stuff for relevance, e.g. to highlight things like TFRs or airport closures that are close to the intended path of flight. I dont really care whether the windsock is only dimly lit at some strip 99miles off my course, I do care whether I will loose my ticket for 6 months by penetrating a TFR because 'the Biden' decides to visit a community college in bf nowhere, Minnesota.
Click to expand...

What you basically want is a way to view TFRs graphically on maps/charts are you plan a flight. Reading through a sea of text is a little cumbersome.

As for the FAA's TFR site, they are basically saying that to ensure that one has the most complete information, consult FSS. Although DUATS should provide complete textual information at least, and there are other products out there that provide complete graphical TFRs as well. ;)
 
SkyHog said:
Same as NYC.
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???AFAIK, NYC's TFR was truly temporary. Unlike the one that "Chicago Pizza Eater and User of Ketchup on Hotdogs" Daley wanted around Chicago. Thankfully, he didn't get it.

You can fly up & down the Hudson river to this day.
 
SkytrexSystems said:
...and there are other products out there that provide complete graphical TFRs as well. ;)
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"Complete", meaning inclusive of stadium TFRs with regard to event start/end times, and other unprinted TFRs? I'd love a product that offers that. My frustration is having to check sporting event schedules for several local teams just to fly around the area.
 
Cap'n Jack said:
???AFAIK, NYC's TFR was truly temporary. Unlike the one that "Chicago Pizza Eater and User of Ketchup on Hotdogs" Daley wanted around Chicago. Thankfully, he didn't get it.

You can fly up & down the Hudson river to this day.
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And right across Manhattan as well!
 
SkyHog said:
Were you flying in 2005? The ADIZ surrounded a TFR, and was still "temporary" at that time.

Before that, it was just a mickey mouse shaped TFR.

Same as NYC.
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Now I get it. ADIZ and TFR are synonymous. Who knew?
 
We're totally shut down tomorrow. I had some airmen who were planning to FLY for their exams.

Thank you, Mr. President. Please may I have some more?
 
I think Dave's point was that these TFRs are ridiculous (which they are). Way of life or not, they are still ridiculous.

This is a particularly bad example of one, but they serve no purpose in general and should be eliminated. The fact that this is for campaigning purposes makes it worse, but I don't even care if it's for official Presidential business. The economic impact of a TFR is huge. Not just the extra cost involved in flying around one (how much money does your airplane cost per minute? The planes I fly cost $3-10/minute), but in the lost revenue due to interfering with business in those areas, etc.

It may be a way of life, but it should not be.
 
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