Macs own 50% of the Marketshare??

[jmaynard]

Youngster. My first model was a 300 (where it would be connect to say Baud vs. bps *) and it the only advance it had was that it direct connected to the phone line instead of having an acoustic coupler....and I used it on a typewriter.

I didn't say that was my first system...in fact, I used to own a Teletype 33ASR to go with that computer I built when I was 17. Used it for a while with a 300 baud acoustic coupler, with the computer running a quick and dirty Z-80 program to perform buffering as needed, just because I could.

* (2400 bps modems were 1200 baud)

Picky picky picky. The distinction is only significant to a telephone engineer or modem designer; the measurement of interest to the rest of us was how fast you could push data down the pipe.

 

[mikea]

I didn't say that was my first system...in fact, I used to own a Teletype 33ASR to go with that computer I built when I was 17. Used it for a while with a 300 baud acoustic coupler, with the computer running a quick and dirty Z-80 program to perform buffering as needed, just because I could.


Picky picky picky. The distinction is only significant to a telephone engineer or modem designer; the measurement of interest to the rest of us was how fast you could push data down the pipe.

OK, OK. You was there, too. I bow.

I remember walking around the computer club and hearing guys laughing about how many versions it took for the creator of WordStar to get it right (as I recall it was 3). They had no idea how Bill Gates would push that.

 

[jmaynard]

I remember walking around the computer club and hearing guys laughing about how many versions it took for the creator of WordStar to get it right (as I recall it was 3). They had no idea how Bill Gates would push that.

I dunno...I used WordStar 2.11, and found it quite good - to the point that the text editor I use on Linux (joe, with the jstar configuration file) uses the same command set. My fingers know how to do things in that editor without my brain having to get involved.

 

[ScottM]

noobs!

 

[gprellwitz]

I don't know. I go back to PIP on CP/M, and 120baud models with a handset coupler that you could whistle into to make it think it was connected! And my first paper in college was written in SuperWylbur, so I could use the newfangled LASER printers!

[quote] SuperWylbur'stext editing capabilities give you:

• More than 20 simultaneously active working files
• English-like commands, not cryptic codes
• Line lengths up to 255 characters
• Context ranges providing powerful search and data selection:
  • Complex pattern matching; if you can describe it, SuperWylbur can match it
  • Column subsetting
  • Restriction to specific lines of working files
  • Combining matching lines with Boolean set operations
  • Selecting instances of patterns
  • Selection of lines relative to matched lines
• Commands to list, change, move, copy and compare ranges
• The ability to copy data among any of your working files and from external data sets
• Command recall from the retry stack
• A session checkpoint capability
• Full session recovery of all working files after session or system failure
• Creation of your own sophisticated commands

The SuperWylbur full screen editor augments these powerful text editing commands with the ease and convenience of 3270 full screen text entry and display providing:

• Access to all text editing commands
• Support of any 3270 screen size
• Optional tab line and software tabbing
• User control of screen area size
• Line and block commands
• Optional highlighting and verification of modified lines
• Optional hexadecimal format
• A separate retry stack allowing command recall

SuperWylbur supplies extra capabilities to assist you with text formatting, whether for a one-page memo, a ten-page report or a manual of a thousand pages. Formatting can be defined by means of control words embedded in the text, or performed by command for a "what-you-see-is-what-you-get" result. These features may be combined with SuperWylbur's macro facility for a powerful tool for standardizing your documents.
SuperWylbur's text formatting features include:

• Justification and alignment of text
• Automatic hyphenation
• Pagination with headings and footings
• Highlighting of document revisions
• Table of contents and indexes
• User-defined formatting commands

[/quote]

 

[Bob Noel]

coming here from usenet, this stuff I've seen here is nothin (don't know about SZ tho)

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Check out the Console application, in /Applications/Utilities. The entire panic report is in there, and can be used to find out why it crashed.

For example:

Sorry, I don't have a panic.log because I haven't had a kernel panic since the last time I did a full reinstall many moons ago.

 

[mikea]

I dunno...I used WordStar 2.11, and found it quite good - to the point that the text editor I use on Linux (joe, with the jstar configuration file) uses the same command set. My fingers know how to do things in that editor without my brain having to get involved.

Me too. I think I can still do fine wven though I haven't used it in 5-6 years. Our editor of choice was VDE which based on VDO, which was an article in Byte magazine for an editor that was 4K of assembler. VDO put a file of up to 64K in RAM so it was fast, fast, fast and the author added a lot of Wordstar command capability.

My buddy is still using VDE, even though he finally listened to me and became the last person on the planet to get an iMac. He was using Windows 95, and he didn't move to THAT from CP/M until it was 7 years old. He's coming over today so he can use my broadband to update his iMac. He uses dial-up. I gotta tell him about Joe. He'll love it.

 

[jmaynard]

He's coming over today so he can use my brpoadband to update his iMac. He uses dial-up.

This is the same situation as my roommate's parents: we gave them a Mac Mini a few years ago so we wouldn't be answering tech support questions from them about their Windows box. Worked fine: they've only had to call us twice about it since we gave it to them. They're on dialup, so they bring the machine to our house for updates every now and them.

I gotta tell him about Joe. He'll love it.

It builds and runs fine on OS X. I don't think it's available prebuilt, though.

 

[tdager]

BTW...one thing the Macfans have to admit....Windows is MUCH more open to peripherals (again it is the drivers that cause problems) than Mac.

I do give Mac that, they ARE more stable on average, than again Apple controls access to OS X and their system more tightly than the Soviets managed their wall between east and west Germany.

If Microsoft tried to control things like that they would be ROASTED for being "anti-competitive" and other crap.

 

[ReverendSlappy]

If Microsoft tried to control things like that they would be ROASTED for being "anti-competitive" and other crap.

EggSACTLY. It's the same double-standard nonsense as with all the rest of it.

 

[jmaynard]

BTW...one thing the Macfans have to admit....Windows is MUCH more open to peripherals (again it is the drivers that cause problems) than Mac.

Not even close. The driver interface is well documented, and lots of manufacturers have their own. There's even an open-source driver I'm peripherally involved in (from my work with Hercules).

I do give Mac that, they ARE more stable on average, than again Apple controls access to OS X and their system more tightly than the Soviets managed their wall between east and west Germany.

Nope. Anyone who wants to develop a driver for any piece of hardware can do so.

If Microsoft tried to control things like that they would be ROASTED for being "anti-competitive" and other crap.

The difference is that Microsoft has been convicted repeatedly of being anti-competitive. You can't handwave that away.

 

[ReverendSlappy]

The difference is that Microsoft has been convicted repeatedly of being anti-competitive. You can't handwave that away.

Sigh... So I guess you don't buy gas from Exxon? You don't use any aluminum from Alcoa? You don't have phone service with AT&T? And, if this case or this one finishes with a judgment for the plaintiffs, you'll stop using Apple products, right?

Please. Same old hypocritical, double-standard, melodramatic BS.

 

[steingar]

Wow, you guys are arguing so hard nobody even got mad about my Harley jokes!

 

[dmccormack]

Sigh... So I guess you don't buy gas from Exxon? You don't use any aluminum from Alcoa? You don't have phone service with AT&T? And, if this case or this one finishes with a judgment for the plaintiffs, you'll stop using Apple products, right?

Please. Same old hypocritical, double-standard, melodramatic BS.

Even Microsoft doesn't get as worked up about Apple's marketing techniques as you seem to be...

Sheese...

 

[ScottM]

Wow, you guys are arguing so hard nobody even got mad about my Harley jokes!

I liked 'em

 

[dmccormack]

Wow, you guys are arguing so hard nobody even got mad about my Harley jokes!

Those were jokes??

Sorry.. I thought they were excerpts from the Harley Owners manual....

 

[ReverendSlappy]

Even Microsoft doesn't get as worked up about Apple's marketing techniques as you seem to be...

Sheese...

I didn't think that complaining about Microsoft's anti-trust stuff was a "marketing technique", but...

The point is that some Apple folks seem to feel it necessary to not just talk up the good aspects of the products they prefer, but also to endlessly and childishly slam Microsoft for things that don't really matter one bit (at least that's usually what they do after having been exposed as having zero expertise whatsoever with regard to the technical issues they bogusly claim to have experienced). It's silly, and more a reflection on them than Microsoft or anybody else.

 

[dmccormack]

I didn't think that complaining about Microsoft's anti-trust stuff was a "marketing technique", but...

The point is that some Apple folks seem to feel it necessary to not just talk up the good aspects of the products they prefer, but also to endlessly and childishly slam Microsoft for things that don't really matter one bit. It's silly, and more a reflection on them than Microsoft or anybody else.

There is a long, tortured history here, and many Pro-Apple types love to revel in that.

So what?

If we were having the "Macs are easier to use and PCs are the domain of tinkerers" debate in 1986, 1991, or even 1996, I'd agree with the Mac fans.

MS has used it's money and market presence to eliminate the gap -- most impressively across a string of disparate hardware.

Apple chose to ride the underdog train a long time ago, and many Apple fans love to exist in the subculture of minority, secret knowledge superiority.

So what?

 

[ReverendSlappy]

So what?

I certainly don't claim to have an issue with anybody else's choices about technology. Not at all. But it gets to be a problem in my book when people start in with the bogus claims about the competence of those who implement Microsoft-based solutions, because I'm one of those people. That it's "professional malpractice" is one of those claims that we heard here -- and one of the more laughably childish and ridiculous ones I've ever heard, at that.

 

[dmccormack]

I certainly don't claim to have an issue with anybody else's choices about technology. Not at all. But it gets to be a problem in my book when people start in with the bogus claims about the competence of those who implement Microsoft-based solutions, because I'm one of those people. That it's "professional malpractice" is one of those claims that we heard here -- and one of the more laughably childish and ridiculous ones I've ever heard, at that.

Hyperbole -- it's never been a factor in business, has it?

 

[ReverendSlappy]

Hyperbole -- it's never been a factor in business, has it?

Sure, it's nothing new. But that doesn't mean that it shouldn't be exposed for what it is, rigorously defended against, and summarily trashed. Like I said much earlier in this thread, all that absurdity and the people who robotically parrot it do is bring down the intellectual level of the conversation a few (a few dozen?) notches.

 

[ScottM]

Apple chose to ride the underdog train a long time ago, and many Apple fans love to exist in the subculture of minority, secret knowledge superiority.

So what?

I am no fan of M$. I do not like the look and feel of any of their products and have been forced to use them for many years now. I much prefer Apple's OS and I think their innovation in MMIs (Man Machine Interfaces) is really something for them to brag about.

Even though M$ suck in my book, it is not the disaster that some make it out to be. It does work, there is lots of software for it, and I have not gotten a BSOD on Vista yet. I still only get about one per year on my XP laptop which has more miles on it than an Apollo space capsule. It is still even running SP1 without problems. Although the BT driver died a long time ago, but that was because of a stupid internal security patch from CSC that was foisted upon me. I blame lousy offshore M$ certified computer geeks for that not Bill Gates.

That all said I tend to have to tinker a little more with my M$ machines than I have ever had to do with any of my MAC machines.

 

[t0r0nad0]

That all said I tend to have to tinker a little more with my M$ machines than I have ever had to do with any of my MAC machines.

I thought people typically went to jail for tinkering with MAC machines?

 

[ReverendSlappy]

And then there's this: http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=5617800&page=1

I'm sure all the anti-trust hard-liners out there would be equally offended by a legal finding of false advertising, right?

Right?

 

[Henning]

Just had a customer flip on me because we cannot do the application loader on her Blackberry on a Macintosh.

She claimed that Macs own 50% of the marketshare worldwide (or maybe in the US, not sure).

That can't be right is it? I thought it was still like 2.7% or so...

She's as delussional as every Koolaid drinking Mac Fan. Just nod and slip her a Seraquel.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I'm sure all the anti-trust hard-liners out there would be equally offended by a legal finding of false advertising, right?

And you accuse US of hyperbole? The suit was just filed and Apple hasn't even been served yet. "Legal finding of false advertising" is a looooooooong way away.

People sue Apple every day for stupid stuff. "I can't replace the battery in my iPod." Waaaaaah. You knew that when you bought it. Plus, you CAN, or you can send it to places like ipodresq.com where they'll do it for you if you're queasy about opening electronics yourself.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I certainly don't claim to have an issue with anybody else's choices about technology. Not at all. But it gets to be a problem in my book when people start in with the bogus claims about the competence of those who implement Microsoft-based solutions, because I'm one of those people. That it's "professional malpractice" is one of those claims that we heard here -- and one of the more laughably childish and ridiculous ones I've ever heard, at that.

Here's the problem I have with it.

As a cross-platform consultant, my job was to recommend the absolute best system to our clients. Sometimes, that system was a Windows system. However, often the Mac was the way to go.

"Professional malpractice" is where a novice home user needs to buy their first computer, has no need for anything Windows, and is given Windows. That's a money-hungry consultant - Money spent on installing virus and malware countermeasures, return visits, etc... FWIW, the average time between callbacks from our Windows clients was three weeks, while the average time between callbacks from the Mac clients was six months.

Two things make people recommend Windows in situations where they should recommend a Mac: Ignorance and Greed. WAY too many consultants don't know jack about the Mac, yet they think they're "educated" enough to "know" it's the wrong solution - No, it's the right one, but they won't make any money if they recommend a system that they can't continue to support.

Blah blah blah blah blah, nobody's listening, blah, nobody cares, blah, blah, Windows rocks, blah, whatever.

 

[ReverendSlappy]

And you accuse US of hyperbole? The suit was just filed and Apple hasn't even been served yet. "Legal finding of false advertising" is a looooooooong way away.

Hyperbole? Not at all... I was talking about a hypothetical application of the exact same standard that is applied to Microsoft. And there are anti-trust cases pending against Apple.

People sue Apple every day for stupid stuff. "I can't replace the battery in my iPod." Waaaaaah. You knew that when you bought it. Plus, you CAN, or you can send it to places like ipodresq.com where they'll do it for you if you're queasy about opening electronics yourself.

People sue Microsoft every day for stupid stuff. "I can't uninstall Internet Explorer." Waaaaaah. You knew that when you bought it.

But that's totally different. Mmm-hmm.

 

[ReverendSlappy]

Here's the problem I have with it.

As a cross-platform consultant, my job was to recommend the absolute best system to our clients. Sometimes, that system was a Windows system. However, often the Mac was the way to go.

Right.

"Professional malpractice" is where a novice home user needs to buy their first computer, has no need for anything Windows, and is given Windows.

But it's okay if they don't have a need for "anything Mac" and are given an Apple? Mmmyeah, no. The implication there is that barring any specific need for Windows, the "default" choice should objectively be Apple. And that is, quite obviously, BS.

That's a money-hungry consultant - Money spent on installing virus and malware countermeasures, return visits, etc...

BS. If it's done right the first time (and there are plenty of "consultants" out there who are absolutely incapable of that), it takes about 30 additional minutes and zero extra money or software. And if that's done the right way, any increased frequency of return visits doesn't have jack to do with the OS. Sorry... Like I said before, I never hear a word from my mom about her Windows PC. Not a peep, and it runs like a champ.

FWIW, the average time between callbacks from our Windows clients was three weeks, while the average time between callbacks from the Mac clients was six months.

And drawing a conclusion about the OS from that data is misleading at best. It says just as much about the users and the consultants as it does anything else.

Two things make people recommend Windows in situations where they should recommend a Mac: Ignorance and Greed.

Yeah... it could only be stupidity and EVIL!!! Uh-huh.

WAY too many consultants don't know jack about the Mac, yet they think they're "educated" enough to "know" it's the wrong solution - No, it's the right one, but they won't make any money if they recommend a system that they can't continue to support.

Same applies to Mac weenies who run nothing else and specify nothing else. Amusingly, though, when those folks can't make a Windows system run worth a crud (which shouldn't be surprising to them), they blame Microsoft instead of themselves. Examples of that delusional, undeserved sense of superiority abound.

Blah blah blah blah blah, nobody's listening, blah, nobody cares, blah, blah, Windows rocks, blah, whatever.

Who's saying that?

 

[flyingcheesehead]

But it's okay if they don't have a need for "anything Mac" and are given an Apple? Mmmyeah, no. The implication there is that barring any specific need for Windows, the "default" choice should objectively be Apple. And that is, quite obviously, BS.

No, it's really not. For someone who does not have a reason to use a particular platform and is inexperienced, the Mac should be the default choice. Easy to use and administer (and really, not much in the way of administration is needed).

The fact that you say that many CONSULTANTS can't get Windows right only reinforces the fact that a simple user should not get into that game.

BS. If it's done right the first time (and there are plenty of "consultants" out there who are absolutely incapable of that), it takes about 30 additional minutes and zero extra money or software.

30 additional minutes is extra money.

Like I said before, I never hear a word from my mom about her Windows PC. Not a peep, and it runs like a champ.

Who updates virus definitions, who runs Adaware etc. on a regular basis, etc.?

Why should those things even be necessary?

Same applies to Mac weenies who run nothing else and specify nothing else. Amusingly, though, when those folks can't make a Windows system run worth a crud (which shouldn't be surprising to them), they blame Microsoft instead of themselves. Examples of that delusional, undeserved sense of superiority abound.

I run nothing else - But I do specify when something else is needed. However, now that Macs are running on Intel and it's quite easy to keep an app or two in its own little box, those times are now rare indeed.

 

[ReverendSlappy]

No, it's really not. For someone who does not have a reason to use a particular platform and is inexperienced, the Mac should be the default choice. Easy to use and administer (and really, not much in the way of administration is needed).

And I'm saying that's misleading: Windows is just as easy to use and administer for the inexperienced. Add to that the better availability of hardware and software and it's a no-brainer.

I'm of the school of thought that there is no default and that anyone who believes there is isn't being objective. I certainly don't think your "default" is an objective choice based on any quantitative reasoning.

The fact that you say that many CONSULTANTS can't get Windows right only reinforces the fact that a simple user should not get into that game.

Not at all.

We all know that people who think they know what they're doing but don't are far, far more dangerous than people who don't. Many "consultants" fall into that category: They know enough to be dangerous.

30 additional minutes is extra money.

A negligible amount.

Who updates virus definitions, who runs Adaware etc. on a regular basis, etc.?

Um... You choose the right software once, and that's all taken care of It's not hard.

Why should those things even be necessary?

Because people write exploits for what's out there en masse.

But that's got nothing to do with the quality of the software. I mean, you're not under the illusion that OS X has fewer vulnerabilities than Windows, are you? The only thing there are fewer of is exploits.

I run nothing else - But I do specify when something else is needed. However, now that Macs are running on Intel and it's quite easy to keep an app or two in its own little box, those times are now rare indeed.

Right -- and please don't be offended by this -- if I were looking for a Windows solution, a person who doesn't run it isn't going to be on my short (or long) list of people I'd choose to implement it because they're much more likely to hose it up. That's all I've been saying.

 

[Bob Noel]

> And I'm saying that's misleading: Windows is just as easy to use and administer
> for the inexperienced.

You make a point of being unhappy when people make what you believe are
absurd claims wrt microsoft. Then you shouldn't have any complaint about me
calling you on your bogus claim that windows is just as easy to use and admin
as OS X.

 

[Henning]

> And I'm saying that's misleading: Windows is just as easy to use and administer
> for the inexperienced.

You make a point of being unhappy when people make what you believe are
absurd claims wrt microsoft. Then you shouldn't have any complaint about me
calling you on your bogus claim that windows is just as easy to use and admin
as OS X.

I am a basic average computer user. I have never taken a class or read a manual. I have physically repaired both, no difference really. I have had to fix software issues with each by perusing through the computer and finding the answer, I didn't see much difference in either and found myself being able to deal with the same level of stuff on my own regardless Mac or PC. When I do need support though, that's where I find the difference, especially when dealing with a lot of specialized software that intergates various hardware components like on the bridge of a boat. If I have Macs going, the support is almost non existant and their ability to deal with problems become less. Try running Transas on a Mac or Linux box when you're inputting a Furuno Radar, 3 GPS signals (one of which is also a GPS gyro, one a WAAS whatever, and one a survey grade Leitz) a physical gyro, and outputting to an autopilot and a Simrad DPII system. The software just isn't developed to do it. Granted I haven't tried it lately, and I guess if you're running Windows on a Mac box you could do it, but then you have Windows on your Mac, and why pay extra money for that?

 

[jesse]

I am a basic average computer user. I have never taken a class or read a manual. I have physically repaired both, no difference really. I have had to fix software issues with each by perusing through the computer and finding the answer, I didn't see much difference in either and found myself being able to deal with the same level of stuff on my own regardless Mac or PC. When I do need support though, that's where I find the difference, especially when dealing with a lot of specialized software that intergates various hardware components like on the bridge of a boat. If I have Macs going, the support is almost non existant and their ability to deal with problems become less. Try running Transas on a Mac or Linux box when you're inputting a Furuno Radar, 3 GPS signals (one of which is also a GPS gyro, one a WAAS whatever, and one a survey grade Leitz) a physical gyro, and outputting to an autopilot and a Simrad DPII system. The software just isn't developed to do it. Granted I haven't tried it lately, and I guess if you're running Windows on a Mac box you could do it, but then you have Windows on your Mac, and why pay extra money for that?

Well said Henning. I use a Macbook Pro as my primary work computer and it gets the job done. That said--there are some things--such as you mention above where I wouldn't even bother to try and use a Mac.

 

[gibbons]

> And I'm saying that's misleading: Windows is just as easy to use and administer
> for the inexperienced.

You make a point of being unhappy when people make what you believe are
absurd claims wrt microsoft. Then you shouldn't have any complaint about me
calling you on your bogus claim that windows is just as easy to use and admin
as OS X.

For me, it's easier. And it works (bonus).

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Just had a customer flip on me because we cannot do the application loader on her Blackberry on a Macintosh.

She claimed that Macs own 50% of the marketshare worldwide (or maybe in the US, not sure).

That can't be right is it? I thought it was still like 2.7% or so...

According to the figures Apple released this week, their market share has gone up to 17.6% of unit sales. Lookin' pretty good.

 

[john smith]

A kernal panic?
I had one initially when I purchased my 17-inch MacBook Pro this summer.
I am doing high definition video editing.
The MacBook Pro is sensitive to memory mismatch.
Problem was solved by swapping out the RAM with another brand.

 

[john smith]

Keynote (iLife*) reads/writes Power Point
Numbers (iLife*) reads/writes Excel
Pages (iLife*) reads/writes Word
Bento ($49) reads/writes Access
*iLife $89
also included in iLife is iWeb

 

[flyersfan31]

2 buttons on the mouse vs one button. I like 2 buttons.