Lycoming SB 632 - a disaster?

mkosmo said:
If you bought it second-hand, you didn't sign that agreement at any point :)
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Yup, and your only recourse would be against the seller. So the buck still stops short of Lycoming.

Tim

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tspear said:
Yup, and your only recourse would be against the seller. So the buck still stops short of Lycoming.

Tim

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How so? I didn't sign a hold-harmless with Lycoming or any kind of arbitration agreement. The agreement that the seller signed can't be force-transferred to me. I could go directly after them if needed. The seller has little to no skin in the game.
 
tspear said:
Read the purchase agreement on the engine. It is basically sold as is, and warranty against defects in manufacturing. There is no warranty against design failures.
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Is that a defense against negligence?
 
mkosmo said:
How so? I didn't sign a hold-harmless with Lycoming or any kind of arbitration agreement. The agreement that the seller signed can't be force-transferred to me. I could go directly after them if needed. The seller has little to no skin in the game.
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And there is no legal basis for you to hold Lycoming libel.

Note; I am not an attorney, just deal with them a lot.

Tim

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tspear said:
And there is no legal basis for you to hold Lycoming libel.

Note; I am not an attorney, just deal with them a lot.

Tim

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Except for the whole faulty engineering thing.
 
Goofy said:
Is this the only industry in the world that can sell you overpriced crap and then charge you to fix their mistakes?
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Eh I just paid $1000 (GM covered approx 50% of cost after I beat them over the head) to have a 2.4L engine rebuilt on a Chevy equinox. The engine had 80,000 miles on it, was just over 3 years old and was completely clapped out. Spun connecting rod bearings (one cracked), timing chain worn beyond spec and 2/4 pistons had stuck rings causing it to burn 4-5 quarts of oil between changes.

This is engine #3 for the car. The first engine went TU after the timing chain broke at 70,000 miles. The replacement engine (installed under warranty) had a 3 year, 100,000 mile warranty and of course I only noticed it was burning oil at 3 years, 2 months (d'oh).
 
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dell30rb said:
Eh I just paid $1000 (GM covered approx 50% of cost after I beat them over the head) to have a 2.4L engine rebuilt on a Chevy equinox. The engine had 80,000 miles on it, was just over 3 years old and was completely clapped out. Spun connecting rod bearings (one cracked), timing chain worn beyond spec and 2/4 pistons had stuck rings causing it to burn 4-5 quarts of oil between changes.

This is engine #3 for the car. The first engine went TU after the timing chain broke at 70,000 miles. The replacement engine (installed under warranty) had a 3 year, 100,000 mile warranty and of course I only noticed it was burning oil at 3 years, 2 months (d'oh).
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80K in 3 years? That's some heavy miles brother. At any rate what caught my eye was the rebuilt price. 1k out of pocket. Think about how much they charge us for a 1950s tractor engine on ours. 1k doesn't even cover the paperwork. What an insane hobby. :D
 
hindsight2020 said:
80K in 3 years? That's some heavy miles brother. At any rate what caught my eye was the rebuilt price. 1k out of pocket. Think about how much they charge us for a 1950s tractor engine on ours. 1k doesn't even cover the paperwork. What an insane hobby. :D
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Wife and I both put nearly 30k/yr on our vehicles. Keeps me busy. Surprisingly my twin-turbo 400hp F-150 has been less maintenance than the little 4cyl equinox.

1k is not bad and it was my "deductible". I am wondering how long it will last though considering how worn out the engine was. They have updated parts for the timing chain and piston rings but I am not sure about the connecting rods. The engine was burning oil and making a lot of internal engine racket when they tore into it.

"Upon disassembly of engine found all four connecting rod wrist pin bushings had spun inside of connecting rod. One bushing contained a crack and could be pushed out of connecting rod by hand"
 
hindsight2020 said:
80K in 3 years? That's some heavy miles brother. At any rate what caught my eye was the rebuilt price. 1k out of pocket. Think about how much they charge us for a 1950s tractor engine on ours. 1k doesn't even cover the paperwork. What an insane hobby. :D
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It is insane. Although a nice four stroke outboard for your boat will set you back 20-30k as well. A good used one might run 7-10k.
 
dell30rb said:
Eh I just paid $1000 (GM covered approx 50% of cost after I beat them over the head) to have a 2.4L engine rebuilt on a Chevy equinox. The engine had 80,000 miles on it, was just over 3 years old and was completely clapped out. Spun connecting rod bearings (one cracked), timing chain worn beyond spec and 2/4 pistons had stuck rings causing it to burn 4-5 quarts of oil between changes.

This is engine #3 for the car. The first engine went TU after the timing chain broke at 70,000 miles. The replacement engine (installed under warranty) had a 3 year, 100,000 mile warranty and of course I only noticed it was burning oil at 3 years, 2 months (d'oh).
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Wouldn't buy government motors if hell froze over.....
 
mkosmo said:
You seem awfully defensive of Lycoming.
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Nope. I think Lycoming screwed up. I just do not see a legal recourse. As a result, I have a tendancy to throw cold water on the whole "sue it is the American way" mentality.

Tim

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tspear said:
Nope. I think Lycoming screwed up. I just do not see a legal recourse. As a result, I have a tendancy to throw cold water on the whole "sue it is the American way" mentality.

Tim

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We'd need a lawyer with experience in this realm to chime in, then. Perhaps Lycoming could have known that this was a likely or possible outcome? Is there any engineering data to have predicted these failures in normal operations?
 
mkosmo said:
We'd need a lawyer with experience in this realm to chime in, then....
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Yeah, SGOTI is definitely not whom to be looking to for an answer to this type of question.
 
Palmpilot said:
Yeah, SGOTI is definitely not whom to be looking to for an answer to this type of question.
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How do we know that the answer to the question about the answer to the question should be trusted to another SGOTI, eh?
 
If you're talking about me, there are very few subjects on which I can be considered to be a source of authoritative answers. The law and flying are not among them!
 
Palmpilot said:
If you're talking about me, there are very few subjects on which I can be considered to be a source of authoritative answers. The law and flying are not among them!
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But are you authority on determining whether or not a self-proclaimed authority is an authority on the subject in which they claim to be an authority?..authority authority
 
tspear said:
Nope. I think Lycoming screwed up. I just do not see a legal recourse. As a result, I have a tendancy to throw cold water on the whole "sue it is the American way" mentality.
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Not arguing if it's better or worse, but the main reason it's the "American way" is that we tend toward much weaker consumer protection laws here than in many places.

On the flip side, it also makes the products cheaper. Until you need an attorney.
 
denverpilot said:
Not arguing if it's better or worse, but the main reason it's the "American way" is that we tend toward much weaker consumer protection laws here than in many places.

On the flip side, it also makes the products cheaper. Until you need an attorney.
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Touche.

Tim
 
murphey said:
Swell. Just got it outnof annual with the latest AD on the hoses. This is going to cost almost as much as the annual.

But it doesn't say what prompted the SB.
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Latest? Or the running 8 year replacement?
 
Re: the liability transferring after a sale? I used to have a Hawk XP that I bought from the guy that bought it from Cessna. At 900TTSN it spit a rod through the case while in flight. It turned out there was a service bulletin about the rods that I found by chance but my engine would have been airworthy as it was. After TCM declined to provide any assistance with the problem I retained an attorney. TCM changed their tune. I paid the prorated cost of the new engine based on engine hours, so I paid less than half of the cost of the new (expensive!) engine. Liability falls on the manufacturer if the issue is a manufacturing flaw. How many owners were ahead of you makes no difference.
 
So, what does it mean for those of us that overhauled our own last year? I suppose I need to find the invoice from where I sent the moving parts for refurbishment and see what they say?
 
Goofy said:
So, what does it mean for those of us that overhauled our own last year? I suppose I need to find the invoice from where I sent the moving parts for refurbishment and see what they say?
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Yes.

Tim
 
Goofy said:
So, what does it mean for those of us that overhauled our own last year? I suppose I need to find the invoice from where I sent the moving parts for refurbishment and see what they say?
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I was just going to ask how many members here got hit by this. I'll count that at 0.5 until you know for sure...

Sucks man. Really sucks. Sorry.
 
How is the inspection done? From the top? Pull cylinders? Not that big a deal. I'll save my sorrys for guys who find bad ones!
 
Stewartb said:
How is the inspection done? From the top? Pull cylinders? Not that big a deal. I'll save my sorrys for guys who find bad ones!
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Yeah, no big deal. Can't wait to tear into this .... not exactly a rental 172.

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Are those ECI cylinders on the Exp engine? And you used Lycoming rods? Pretty!
 
Stewartb said:
Are those ECI cylinders on the Exp engine? And you used Lycoming rods? Pretty!
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Nope. LyCon tweaked new steel Lycoming on an ancient Piper O-320 for my Long EZ.
And thank you!
Used my rods sent to Aircraft Specialty for refurb. Just found the yellow tag and no mention of bushings...fingers crossed!
 
Can anyone tell me what bushings are the issue here?
 
Goofy said:
Can anyone tell me what bushings are the issue here?
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Have you talked to Aircraft Specialties? Do they use Lycoming bushings? I assumed they used ECI when they did mine but I never asked. It seems like most of the parts I bought from them came from ECI. Fingers crossed for you!
 
Hoping. No mention on the yellow tag. Guess I better call....
 
Goofy said:
Hoping. No mention on the yellow tag. Guess I better call....
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Check their website too. Aircraft Specialties has some information on what to look for to document whether you will be subject to this AD or not.

I have a set of rods refurbished by them last year too. I'm hoping I don't have to deal with this...

EDIT: Called Aircraft Specialties today. Thankfully they used Superior bushings. No engine disassembly for me!
 
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mondtster said:
Check their website too. Aircraft Specialties has some information on what to look for to document whether you will be subject to this AD or not.

I have a set of rods refurbished by them last year too. I'm hoping I don't have to deal with this...

EDIT: Called Aircraft Specialties today. Thankfully they used Superior bushings. No engine disassembly for me!
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Thanks for the update. Checked the .pdf on their website and it relates to parts from 2016 to 2017 and my yellow tag is 2014.....YEE HAA! For once I'm glad time flies....
 
Quick question because I am confused. Why is the manufacturer of the failed parts not liabile for the repair/replacement costs? Why is it on the plane owner, they purchased the parts / repairs in good faith?
 
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