Lycoming IO360-A1A overhaul cost on a Mooney M20F

N2124v

N2124v

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N2124V
I went and looked at a 1967 Mooney M20F today that I am interested in. The plane has decent avionics, paint is 5 years old and looks good, interior is ok ( seats are great, panels need to be redone), and 4000 total time, 1995 smoh. From a quick look at the logbooks I think it is the same engine that came with it. Compressions are in the high 70's for the last 4 annuals, and it doesn't appear to be eating a lot of oil, but it's not flying much.

I used to own a M20E, but never went through the overhaul process.

So, here are my concerns:

1. I will be looking at an overhaul at some point. With the age of the engine, is there any value left for core exchange, or am I looking at buying an engine to exchange or a new one?

2. The plane has an oil screen instead of a filter, is this an issue for engine life?

Any other gotcha's to be aware of?
 
I used to fly an M20F, and the IO-360-A1A in it made it to over 2000 hours with no issues. So on the surface, I wouldn't worry about it. Also, when we got the 310 it had 1700 hours on screens. We added filters, ran the engines to 2100 hours. So I don't think that those have hurt things any on the M20F.

The engine will still be worth a core. I would give Lycoming a call and see what the price would be for a reman'd engine. That will likely end up getting you an updated crankcase (roller tappets, wide deck, etc.) along with new cylinders, and could be a worthwhile option to consider.

But if it has good compressions and is flying well, I'd just keep flying it.
 
If you like it buy it support you local A&P their starving.:nono:
 
My plan is to fly it until the engine needs to be overhauled. Right now I'm trying to get an idea for the cost and a reasonable number to beat the guy up with since he has it priced like a mid time engine!
 
Give Custom Airmotive in Tulsa a call. Mark will give a quote and they do first class work. If you do t have a good shop already, I would suggest Gafford Aero in San Marcos.
 
Cheap overhaul 15K good factory overhaul 25K+, shipping, install, new engine mounts plan on new exhaust if it is original. Check some of the value lines like tradeaplane that's a great starting point. And that's if you don't have any other problems. As to oil filter or screen 25 hour or 50 hour oil change depends on how often you fly it. Engines have been running fine on screens for years and should not be more of a concern other than oil change requirements. Mooney's have some special area of concern, hope you know a Mooney A&P not just any mechanic.:nono:
 
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The Heart of Texas price sheet is a good starting point. Add to that the cost of labor to remove and reinstall, plus shipping and all of the new stuff you're going to want. New mag's? New carb or FI? New engine hoses? Engine mounts? New alternator, starter, and vacuum pump? How about baffles? Do you want to have the engine mount removed, blasted and painted "while you're there".

Figure $20k as a budgetary estimate. That probably gets you a rebuild and new accessories. Also, if your cylinders are not first run cylinders, plan to replace them.
 
Five years ago the O-360 in our C model was $28K when all was said and done.
 
My plan is to use Dugosh in Kerrville, TX for the prebuy. They are across the field from Mooney. :)
 
High time engine. You could be ok or you could be wishing in one hand and sh...ing in the other. Depends on who flew it and how they flew it and maintained it. Could throw a 7 tomorrow or could go much longer. The engine done correctly with a warranty, reinstalled on the airplane, around 30 grand. The place in Florida...with a real good reputation.....name? Somebody help!
 
Jimmy cooper said:
High time engine. You could be ok or you could be wishing in one hand and sh...ing in the other. Depends on who flew it and how they flew it and maintained it. Could throw a 7 tomorrow or could go much longer. The engine done correctly with a warranty, reinstalled on the airplane, around 30 grand. The place in Florida...with a real good reputation.....name? Somebody help!
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Zephyr. Charlie Melot is a good guy and has helped me via phone and e-mail a couple of times even though all I did was rent a tool from him once.
 
N2124v said:
I went and looked at a 1967 Mooney M20F today that I am interested in. The plane has decent avionics, paint is 5 years old and looks good, interior is ok ( seats are great, panels need to be redone), and 4000 total time, 1995 smoh. From a quick look at the logbooks I think it is the same engine that came with it. Compressions are in the high 70's for the last 4 annuals, and it doesn't appear to be eating a lot of oil, but it's not flying much.

I used to own a M20E, but never went through the overhaul process.

So, here are my concerns:

1. I will be looking at an overhaul at some point. With the age of the engine, is there any value left for core exchange, or am I looking at buying an engine to exchange or a new one?

2. The plane has an oil screen instead of a filter, is this an issue for engine life?

Any other gotcha's to be aware of?
Click to expand...

I'm not in the Mooney buying or selling mode today, but I'm interested in which airplane you're looking at (got a link?) and where you think the real value (i.e. closing price) will net out. Send a PM if you don't want to discuss it openly.
 
kyleb said:
Zephyr. Charlie Melot is a good guy and has helped me via phone and e-mail a couple of times even though all I did was rent a tool from him once.
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YES! that's the place! Four people I know, 2 mooney's, went there for major's ALL have glowing reports. And yes....oil filters are better than screens and hangars are much better than having been left outside. NO Good! Be very cautious, take your time. The engine on this one would make me walk. Too many hours. Being across from mooney is nice but of little consolation if that engine gives up. Whatever you wind up buying , you want a complete annual as part of the deal, not a " prebuy" and paperwork showing clear title and good logs. It's a buyers market! Your in charge, not the seller, especially with that engine!
 
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Jimmy cooper said:
YES! that's the place! Four people I know, 2 mooney's, went there for major's ALL have glowing reports. And yes....oil filters are better than screens and hangars are much better than having been left outside. NO Good! Be very cautious, take your time. The engine on this one would make me walk. Too many hours. Being across from mooney is nice but of little consolation if that engine gives up. Whatever you wind up buying , you want a complete annual as part of the deal, not a " prebuy" and paperwork showing clear title and good logs. It's a buyers market! Your in charge, not the seller, especially with that engine!
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I think this will be plane number 5 that I have purchased, I've just never had to do an overhaul. I've been looking for about a year and this is the first plane that has given me a warm feeling, but the engine. That being said, if I can get it for the right price, I'm not worried if I have to turn around and hang an engine. It meets my criteria in almost every way.
 
The price seems to be a secret but if it's over 30 grand I'd keep looking. Emotion over intellect is the wrong equation. It's the other way around. Since I started flying I've bought 11 and I only got screwed on one. I did not do due dilligence, instead I trusted the seller as " he seemed like a good guy". He was anything but and was later fired from the airlines for drinking. Cavet emptor. When money is involved I don't get fuzzy warm feelings anymore.
 
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Jimmy cooper said:
The price seems to be a secret but if it's over 30 grand I'd keep looking. Emotion over intellect is the wrong equation. It's the other way around. Since I started flying I've bought 11 and I only got screwed on one. I did not do due dilligence, instead I trusted the seller as " he seemed like a good guy". He was anything but and was later fired from the airlines for drinking. Cavet emptor. When money is involved I don't get fuzzy warm feelings anymore.
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Great minds think alike. I'm aiming for the low $30's on this one to be comfortable.
 
If you can get it for a price that reflects a runout engine and everything else looks good, then go for it. You are having a very reputable Mooney Service Center do the pre-purchase inspection so they will no doubt point anything that needs attention. Make sure the seller agrees to pay for airworthiness issues and negotiate the rest


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
 
N2124v said:
Great minds think alike. I'm aiming for the low $30's on this one to be comfortable.
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30's? I was thinking teens unless it's got a stellar panel, beautiful paint, interior, etc. Otherwise you'll own it for a long time after you sink 50k into it to make it worth 60.
 
R.E. The feel good factory engine - beware.
Your core is over 12 years old.
Local FBO decided to factory exchange his Warrior engine for a factory engine - time and warranty and loss of rentals while waiting on a rebuilder, and all that.
The engine was running fine - just high time and needed fresh cylinders.
So he sent them the money, including a core deposit and waited for his new engine.
Long story short: They disallowed his crank because it was over the time limit and had run out, and charged him for a brand new crank which they took out of his core deposit (he had no leverage because they had his money).
When he demanded his old crank back because he did not believe them (he is an A&PI) and since they were not paying for it it was his property - it mysteriously had already been 'scrapped'.
I suggested to him that some mechanic's buddy was very happy with his new crankshaft - yeah, that's kind of cynical, but it is the real world..
 
Well, the old engines usually you get a deal where if you get it as a rebuilt rather than overhaul from the factory.

I'll also give a thumbs up to Charlie and Zephyr. They did our 310 engines in 2013. 130ish hours on them so far and I'm a very satisfied customer.
 
ScottH said:
30's? I was thinking teens unless it's got a stellar panel, beautiful paint, interior, etc. Otherwise you'll own it for a long time after you sink 50k into it to make it worth 60.
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Teens for an airworthy F? Dream on. :lol:
 
N2124v said:
I went and looked at a 1967 Mooney M20F today that I am interested in. The plane has decent avionics, paint is 5 years old and looks good, interior is ok ( seats are great, panels need to be redone), and 4000 total time, 1995 smoh. From a quick look at the logbooks I think it is the same engine that came with it. Compressions are in the high 70's for the last 4 annuals, and it doesn't appear to be eating a lot of oil, but it's not flying much.

I used to own a M20E, but never went through the overhaul process.

So, here are my concerns:

1. I will be looking at an overhaul at some point. With the age of the engine, is there any value left for core exchange, or am I looking at buying an engine to exchange or a new one?

2. The plane has an oil screen instead of a filter, is this an issue for engine life?

Any other gotcha's to be aware of?
Click to expand...

As long as the parts are good, the core has value. No fine filter is an issue.
 
Dr. O said:
R.E. The feel good factory engine - beware.
Your core is over 12 years old.
Local FBO decided to factory exchange his Warrior engine for a factory engine - time and warranty and loss of rentals while waiting on a rebuilder, and all that.
The engine was running fine - just high time and needed fresh cylinders.
So he sent them the money, including a core deposit and waited for his new engine.
Long story short: They disallowed his crank because it was over the time limit and had run out, and charged him for a brand new crank which they took out of his core deposit (he had no leverage because they had his money).
When he demanded his old crank back because he did not believe them (he is an A&PI) and since they were not paying for it it was his property - it mysteriously had already been 'scrapped'.
I suggested to him that some mechanic's buddy was very happy with his new crankshaft - yeah, that's kind of cynical, but it is the real world..
Click to expand...

This sounds like he may have had a crank that was part of the crankshaft retirement program AD that applies to some Lycomings? :dunno:
 
5 year old paint, 5 year old interior (needs some side panels), new instrument panel, Garmin 430, king hsi, etc... I like the rest of the plane only concern is the engine.
 
N2124v said:
5 year old paint, 5 year old interior (needs some side panels), new instrument panel, Garmin 430, king hsi, etc... I like the rest of the plane only concern is the engine.
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Is the 430 convertible to a 430W? Some aren't, and that means even more $$ to do the ADSB upgrade in a few years.
 
N2124v said:
5 year old paint, 5 year old interior (needs some side panels), new instrument panel, Garmin 430, king hsi, etc... I like the rest of the plane only concern is the engine.
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Well, is it priced for a run out engine? Another option is to buy a 700-1100hr engine and hang it.
 
kyleb said:
Is the 430 convertible to a 430W? Some aren't, and that means even more $$ to do the ADSB upgrade in a few years.
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I'm going to spend some time tomorrow to figure that one out.
 
Henning said:
Well, is it priced for a run out engine? Another option is to buy a 700-1100hr engine and hang it.
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Not anywhere near..... I had thought about buying a mid time engine, but figured that would be almost expensive as an overhaul judging by the examples I found on barnstormers and trade a plane...
 
N2124v said:
Not anywhere near..... I had thought about buying a mid time engine, but figured that would be almost expensive as an overhaul judging by the examples I found on barnstormers and trade a plane...
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What's he asking? What condition is the airframe in?
 
N2124v said:
Great minds think alike. I'm aiming for the low $30's on this one to be comfortable.
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How much do you want to spend on the FWF stuff, going to do the mount? all new scat? new wires? new mounts? are you going to marry up the prop times too? (prop overhaul)

lots of discretionary spending you can control.

and of course you can have a local do the overhaul.
 
Our club recently had the IO-360 in our Cardinal overhauled by Penn Yan. It took about 3 months. It cost about $25K after we paid for shipping and installation charges.

Sadly, the A&P who installed it promptly retired just as we discovered some installation related problems that are going to eat a few thousand more dollars. I expect we'll be in to it for $30K before all the installation bugs are ironed out.
 
JimNtexas said:
Our club recently had the IO-360 in our Cardinal overhauled by Penn Yan. It took about 3 months. It cost about $25K after we paid for shipping and installation charges.

Sadly, the A&P who installed it promptly retired just as we discovered some installation related problems that are going to eat a few thousand more dollars. I expect we'll be in to it for $30K before all the installation bugs are ironed out.
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Had you bought new, you would have had the old engine still in the hangar, saved the down time, had an example to follow during the instal process, and no lost parts
 
Hey just FYI, I just got a quote on one of these at Signature engines in Cincinnati. For 18.7K. Just a data point for you.
 
I just bought an E and have looked at a lot of Mooneys in the last few months. I'm wondering if your F is the one at Santa Fe?

Anyway, I know of an immaculate F in Wisconsin that is going to be coming on the market soon. I flew it last summer and would have bought it if it was in my price range. It's expensive but after looking at 8 birds I'd say its worth every penny. PM me if you want more info
 
Another thumbs up for Charlie. He did the 470 in our 182 and it's been very good.
 
N2124v said:
5 year old paint, 5 year old interior (needs some side panels), new instrument panel, Garmin 430, king hsi, etc... I like the rest of the plane only concern is the engine.
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Sounds like the perfect plane to buy... just make sure the price reflects the runout condition of the engine. Then you get to choose what/how much to do with an overhaul...anything from a local field overhaul to a factory new exchange or anything in between. If you act as the "general contractor" with the work or even better roll up your sleeves and do some of the tedious work yourself then you can save a lot of money vs. throwing the keys to an A&P and asking him to do it all.

I'm going through that very soon but haven't gotten quotes yet. I plan to remove and disassemble everything myself, send or take the big stuff to Tulsa for inspection and recert, send the jugs out to Lycon, get the mount checked locally, etc. and then enlist my A&P friend for re-assembly and re-installation. In the interim I'll also "detail" everything like cleaning/polishing the firewall, replacing hoses, painting/repairing baffles, etc. to bring everything up to a high standard. I'll save a lot of money, but of course to do that I have to price my labor at $0/hr. :D I enjoy it, though.
 
My Aztec had a Signature engine, was nothing but trouble. Way more issues than the engine on the other side of the plane with 1,000 hours more on it. The previous owner of the Aztec bought an Aerostar and also put a Signature overhaul on it, with the same results. When I called them to talk about overhauls for the 310, I was profoundly unimpressed.

But Duncan has told me he's had good luck with Signature engines, so they might just have something against people who live in Williamsport. :)
 
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