LSA, will it work for me?

[MDeitch1976]

Don't think so. He was the ghost of Post Past.

 

[Kanan]

Hello again!

Thanks for all the replies! I've read through them all and I think I'm starting to formulate a bit of a plan.

On the other hand, on May 18 I'm going to travel to Rocky Mountain LSA Expo in Denver... on an LSA. Yeah. What can I say, it's fun. BTW, it should be within your reach: http://www.rmlsaexpo.com

Unfortunately, I'm out on the east coast for work until just after that. But thanks for the info!


Thank you all for the info on airports. I still find it fascinating that you can land almost anywhere for very cheap or free.

You may find the baggage capacity of LSA's rather limited for trips with more than overnight baggage.

I may be wrong, but I don't see this being an issue. These will usually be short weekend trips. 20lbs or less of baggage. And usually just me.

Yes, with the understanding that there will be a lot of times the weather won't allow you to fly.

I guess I didn't really ask this question. How often is it that you wouldn't be able to fly an LSA? IFR and night, right? So there would have to be a thunderstorm in my path, I'm I right on this?

Cost. Not a lot of people have the uncommitted disposable income to put $5-10K a year into their flying.

This is another area I had a few more questions on. $80,000 for an airplane, on a 10 year loan at 6% is about $900 a month, that might be doable. But tack on another $10k a year for maintenance, and there's no way.

What is realistic for maintenance? Part of my thinking with and new LSA is there wouldn't really be much maintenance, and no major overhauls for a really long time. Also it's a cheaper plane, so your max spend to fix is will be less. 100hp rotax might not be great, but it's $16k new, so it can't be more than $16k to fix, ever. And my guess would be a lot less than that.

You can get a decent used 172 for $35-50k with a decently low time engine...

The 172's are, $250k new? ballpark? Just seems like more moving parts and a higher liability to unexpected expensive things going wrong. Is this not correct? Any way to know what your maintenance will be? Or does it just stop working one day?

Also isn't it cheaper by the hour to service an LSA? Fewer FAA regulations?

The aircraft you linked looks like a Avid Flyer derivative. There are a lot of variations out there. They mostly work just fine. I drive another variant - Merlin GT. I would go for the tailwheel version - not really any harder to learn (at least based on my experience) and avoids the problems that some people seem to have making a nosewheel to tailweel transition because there is less "unlearning" involved.

I've read a few things about this and had a few people steer me towards the tail dagger. They're more "fun"? Still not sure I quite get why... More fun to fly? or different in some way?

Many people seem to be unaware of that fact (really)

Used LSA's or GA?

If you actually have the financial means to purchase an 80,000 plane, you're probably going to make a great pilot. Ha

Haha, see above. I live really cheap, I like having my money as spending money. But $80,000 would be pushing it.

Get a used glasair, you can get I RG models for $50k, II RG for $80k

Looks great!

Cruse 175kts, burn 9gph

Now that I find very appealing, that's quite good economy, marginally less per nm than the aerotrek and substantially faster.

I just looked on this page, http://www.glasairaviation.com/sportsmanspecs.html, not sure if this is the model you were referring to, but it's spec'ed at:

210 h.p.
Cruise Speed (TAS) - 65% power at 8,000 ft: 167 m.p.h. / 145 kts.
Fuel Consumption (at 65% power): 10.2 g.p.h.

I guess I'd also be a bit nervous about a kit, and more so about a kit I didn't build. Is that a realistic fear? Is there an inspection for kit airplanes?

A private pilot can still fly LSA aircraft under LSA regs.

Since medical isn't an issue I think I will be doing this. Can you fly an LSA at night if you have your PP? ...And it has lights.

At 240 lbs, that doesn't leave you much room for weight of another passenger.

Yeah, I had done a little math on this. It will usually just be me for an kind of distance flying. What is 100LL 7 lbs a gallon?

used Porsche 911 GTR

Speaking of that: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2008...5095359?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item3a737427bf

It's a thing of beauty.





THANKS AGAIN ALL!!!!

Lots of helpful tips on here, thanks for spending the time to answer some of my questions.

Also, I bought this book: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1560276770/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i00

I'm into it a little ways. I don't have an instructor yet, but was wondering if it was a good enough book to start reading some on?

Thanks!
Kanan

 

[kimberlyanne546]

Thunderstorm? I've canceled 5 out of 5 out of towners, sometimes we had my rental plane reserved for three days. The weather just doesn't allow me to fly sometimes. Gusty winds, clouds with no rain (but low ceilings), etc.

 

[Kanan]

Thunderstorm? I've canceled 5 out of 5 out of towners, sometimes we had my rental plane reserved for three days. The weather just doesn't allow me to fly sometimes. Gusty winds, clouds with no rain (but low ceilings), etc.

Ouch.

That did bring up something that I wanted to ask the board though. Since I'm just getting started I had someone recommend to me that I should just rent for a while. It would usually be local, day flying, but it would give me a chance to get in some hours without really committing and buying a plane. Just kinda wanted to take a poll. How many people are rental only?

 

[zaitcev]

I guess I didn't really ask this question. How often is it that you wouldn't be able to fly an LSA? IFR and night, right? So there would have to be a thunderstorm in my path, I'm I right on this?

This a very good question... On one hand, a well-known enthusiast of LSAs, Dr. Shuch, went to this LSA from a Baron. He was instrument rated, of course, and he lives out at the East Coast in Connecticut or other of those miniature states. He says that he hardly ever seen conditions in which he'd take a trip in Baron, but not in his LSA. However, move west over Apallachas, and it's clouds all the time and I don't know if you could get anywhere VFR except in the Summer.

In my case, in NM, we have exactly the situation of 350 days VFR and then when it's IMC, you don't want to fly IFR on anything smaller than Cheyenne anyway. For that reason, I passed on getting instrument rated. Why waste money, right? Then, one day I visited my daughter in Monterey, California, and had to deal with the marine layer. It's basically like this: I can easily cross the deserts in an LSA, even hop over Sierras, but I am powerless to do anything about the last 5 nm and must land short, in Salinas, then take a rental car.

Once you start flying, you'll see quickly if your local weather is the kind that requires IR.

Also isn't it cheaper by the hour to service an LSA? Fewer FAA regulations?

The thing about airplane maintenance is that if you let someone else do it, then it's unduly expensive no matter what (like the $10k annual). The only way to get it under control, it seems, is to meddle in it a lot. Naturally, some mechanics would not like it, but others do not mind. In case of LSA it means getting so-called "Repairman Certificate" (because Sport Pilot does not have the priviledges of preventive maintenance that Private Pilot has). In case of a certified airplane - even the one flown by SP - look at this book:
http://www.aircraftmaint.com/

I've read a few things about this and had a few people steer me towards the tail dagger. They're more "fun"? Still not sure I quite get why... More fun to fly? or different in some way?

The conventional gear airplanes offer many advantages. For the examples of how much they can save, look at this thread:
http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=48246

Personally, I'm on the fence about it. So far I haven't seen anything terribly compelling. The nice 7ECs are not cheap enough, S-6E and PA-22 come with nose gear, so why bother? Safety, insurance, and crosswind performance favour the nosewheel airplane strongly. Suppose if someone gifts me a nice RANS S-7 or a Citabria with a metal spar, I'll look into getting a tailwheel endorsement, but not before that.

 

[kimberlyanne546]

What he said. Coastal California, where I fly, instrument ratings come in handy (and I don't have one). Sure, I can fly above the clouds (can LSA do that?) but then I have no airport to land at if there are no holes to get down through or the airport goes IFR. Not sure what Omaha is like. I just know that, as a low hour pilot, it seems MANY weekends are not good weather. No matter what time of year.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

I guess I didn't really ask this question. How often is it that you wouldn't be able to fly an LSA? IFR and night, right? So there would have to be a thunderstorm in my path, I'm I right on this?

The issue here isn't LSA vs not. It's VFR vs. IFR. To travel VFR you want clouds 1500 - 2000 feet above the ground and a few miles of visibility. How often that happens depends a lot on what part of the country you are in. A thunderstorm or ice will shut you down VFR or IFR.

What is realistic for maintenance? Part of my thinking with and new LSA is there wouldn't really be much maintenance, and no major overhauls for a really long time. Also it's a cheaper plane, so your max spend to fix is will be less. 100hp rotax might not be great, but it's $16k new, so it can't be more than $16k to fix, ever. And my guess would be a lot less than that.

I probably average $1000 to $2000 a year. But I try to not keep track...
But a lot of that has been replacing the exhaust system ($1000) due to age. Adding a transponder, etc.

The 172's are, $250k new? ballpark? Just seems like more moving parts and a higher liability to unexpected expensive things going wrong. Is this not correct? Any way to know what your maintenance will be? Or does it just stop working one day?

Burns more fuel too.

Also isn't it cheaper by the hour to service an LSA? Fewer FAA regulations?

I'm not sure what the rules are for E-LSA and S-LSA. But there are also "normal" certificated aircraft and experimental amateur built aircraft that fall under rules for sport pilots to fly. Mine is E-AB and I do all the work myself (but pay for an annual inspection). Many parts come from the local auto parts store, but avionics are avionics. And Rotax parts ain't cheap - I think a radiator cap is, like, $35...

I've read a few things about this and had a few people steer me towards the tail dagger. They're more "fun"? Still not sure I quite get why... More fun to fly? or different in some way?

A little more character. Just nice to be a little different. Your feet do get better trained. Somehow, it's just a little more satisfying.

Used LSA's or GA?

OK, I was being a smartass. But, whenever someone talks about LSA's someone has to compare the price of a factory new LSA with a runout something else and make a big deal about how overpriced LSAs are.
You do get more airplane for the buck if you go non-LSA.

Haha, see above. I live really cheap, I like having my money as spending money. But $80,000 would be pushing it.

My ride was closer to $20,000. But it was used. Just like the other stuff that was being quoted as going for $80,000...

I guess I'd also be a bit nervous about a kit, and more so about a kit I didn't build. Is that a realistic fear? Is there an inspection for kit airplanes?

The FAA makes sure you have the paperwork in order.

People worry about the wings falling off because the builder made some big mistake. That doesn't happen. What does happen is that homebuilders, on average, don't do as well with the fuel / electrical systems. That's where I've put work into mine.

The accident rate for homebuilts is higher than factory built, but a lot of the accidents happen during the initial flying. And a lot of them happen because people, for some reason, feel more comfortable doing stupid things (like low level aerobatics) in a homebuilt.

Since medical isn't an issue I think I will be doing this. Can you fly an LSA at night if you have your PP? ...And it has lights.

Some aircraft are not equipped for night flight - but that is not an "LSA" issue. The limitations for Sport Pilots is a limitation on the pilot, not the aircraft.

A lot of aircraft that qualify as an LSA for a sport pilot to fly are "normal" certificated aircraft or experimental - amateur built. A sport pilot is not limited to aircraft certificated as S-LSA or E-LSA. And a private pilot is not limited to the S.P. rules just because the aircraft happens to fit under the LSA definitions.

If that was clear, I probably explained it wrong.

Also, I bought this book: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1560276770/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i00

I'm into it a little ways. I don't have an instructor yet, but was wondering if it was a good enough book to start reading some on?

Probably.

The FAA has a bunch of stuff you can download as well. Airplane Flying Handbook, Pilots Handbook of Aeronautical Knowledge, etc. etc.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

What he said. Coastal California, where I fly, instrument ratings come in handy (and I don't have one). Sure, I can fly above the clouds (can LSA do that?) .

Light sport aircraft? Yes.

Sport pilot (or other rating operating under the sport pilot rules)? No.

 

[MDeitch1976]

Are there any LSA tha can handle actual IMC?

 

[zaitcev]

Are there any LSA tha can handle actual IMC?

I doubt any E-LSAs or S-LSAs ever shipped with an IFR panel, even those that have a vacuum system for standby instruments. For example, AA do not provide an IFR panel for Champ (although they do for Aurora).

LSA-compatible experimentals, no doubt, were built like that. Henning once mentioned one airline captain who flew a Cub with everything, including a radar altimeter (it was before GPS).

LSA-compatible certificated airplanes, well... They are quite old. So it really depends what kind of IMC and what kind of pilot we're talking about. Ice is going to kill you in one of those. But I know a guy personally, who flew IMC in an Eircoupe without an artificial horizon, just using DG and T+B. Naturally he would not be able to make an instrument approach, unless using the Sporty's handheld with ILS

 

[ZeroPapaGolf]

IMO, forget LSA unless you have a medical issue. Getting your private certificate isn't much more money and is much more flexible for the future. It also opens up thousand of good cheap used planes that you couldn't fly as an lsa. These are planes that fly faster, farther, and carry much more payload and do it for less money than an lsa.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I777 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Jim Logajan]

I doubt any E-LSAs or S-LSAs ever shipped with an IFR panel, even those that have a vacuum system for standby instruments.

Actually the AMD 650 B is an SLSA that is available with IFR equipment:
http://www.newplane.com/650/

 

[kimberlyanne546]

I doubt any E-LSAs or S-LSAs ever shipped with an IFR panel, even those that have a vacuum system for standby instruments. For example, AA do not provide an IFR panel for Champ (although they do for Aurora).

LSA-compatible experimentals, no doubt, were built like that. Henning once mentioned one airline captain who flew a Cub with everything, including a radar altimeter (it was before GPS).

LSA-compatible certificated airplanes, well... They are quite old. So it really depends what kind of IMC and what kind of pilot we're talking about. Ice is going to kill you in one of those. But I know a guy personally, who flew IMC in an Eircoupe without an artificial horizon, just using DG and T+B. Naturally he would not be able to make an instrument approach, unless using the Sporty's handheld with ILS

I could have sworn before they went out of business that the Tecnam Sierra (a 2009 model, all glass) was used for instrument training.

The cockpit:

 

[jpower]

Are there any LSA tha can handle actual IMC?

I'm pretty sure that's being worked on right now. The way things are now, LSAs can't be flown in IMC no matter the certification level of the pilot, if I recall correctly.

Edit: huh...the above posts came out before mine, so maybe I'm wrong...I'm still pretty sure of that ^^^ though....

 

[Kanan]

What's the difference between IMC and IFR?

 

[kimberlyanne546]

I'm pretty sure that's being worked on right now. The way things are now, LSAs can't be flown in IMC no matter the certification level of the pilot, if I recall correctly.

Edit: huh...the above posts came out before mine, so maybe I'm wrong...I'm still pretty sure of that ^^^ though....

Quote from my school's site (now out of business, intro flight only):

What makes Light Sport Aircraft (LSA) different? In an effort to make the process of learning to fly simpler and less expensive, the FAA created the Sport Pilot license which enabled pilots to fly aircraft in the Light Sport category. The design and manufacture of LSA’s are certified under a different authority (ASTM International standards body) rather than the FAA. This has, in general, made LSAs more affordable. LSAs may not have more than two seats and cannot weigh more than 1,320 lbs (1,430 for aircraft that can land on water).

LSAs also have limitations on airspeed and complexity (no retractable gear or variable pitch propellers). Since LSAs are a new category of aircraft, most still have that "new airplane smell" and only cost a fraction of conventional certificated aircraft.

One of the benefits of LSA aircraft is that they can be equipped for IFR flights (like ours). This can make training for your Instrument Rating much less expensive.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

What's the difference between IMC and IFR?

IFR are rules. IMC is weather.

You can fly under IFR rules in any weather.

 

[MDeitch1976]

What's the difference between IMC and IFR?

IFR = Instrument Flight Rules
IMC = Instrument Meteorological Conditions.
You could fly under an IFR flight plan, however in a LSA like the Piper Sport, you could become IFR Rated, however the plane is not capable of flying in actual IMC conditions.

Capable or Certified? Not sure here. There are days that are VFR, and the plane will make you wish you were in something heavier, and with more power.

 

[jpower]

Quote from my school's site (now out of business, intro flight only):

What makes Light Sport Aircraft (LSA) different? In an effort to make the process of learning to fly simpler and less expensive, the FAA created the Sport Pilot license which enabled pilots to fly aircraft in the Light Sport category. The design and manufacture of LSA’s are certified under a different authority (ASTM International standards body) rather than the FAA. This has, in general, made LSAs more affordable. LSAs may not have more than two seats and cannot weigh more than 1,320 lbs (1,430 for aircraft that can land on water).

LSAs also have limitations on airspeed and complexity (no retractable gear or variable pitch propellers). Since LSAs are a new category of aircraft, most still have that "new airplane smell" and only cost a fraction of conventional certificated aircraft.

One of the benefits of LSA aircraft is that they can be equipped for IFR flights (like ours). This can make training for your Instrument Rating much less expensive.

IFR = Instrument Flight Rules
IMC = Instrument Meteorological Conditions.
You could fly under an IFR flight plan, however in a LSA like the Piper Sport, you could become IFR Rated, however the plane is not capable of flying in actual IMC conditions.

Capable or Certified? Not sure here. There are days that are VFR, and the plane will make you wish you were in something heavier, and with more power.

Here's what AOPA has to say about it:

Can I fly a special light sport aircraft (SLSA) in IFR conditions or at night?
Only day/VFR conditions are specifically addressed in the ASTM consensus standards that govern the production of SLSA. Being that sport pilots and those exercising sport pilot privileges are limited to flying only in day/VFR conditions, this seems appropriate.


On the other hand, if an appropriately rated pilot (example: private pilot with an instrument rating) wants to fly SLSA under IFR or at night, the aircraft's operating limitations must allow it, and the aircraft must be equipped per 91.205 for VFR flight at night and/or IFR flight. Additionally, 91.327(d) requires all SLSA to be operated in accordance with the aircraft's operating instructions. Operating instructions differ from operating limitations in that the engine, airframe, and accessory manufacturers issue them; the FAA issues operating limitations.
An example of operating instructions is a SLSA equipped with a Rotax engine. Rotax's operating instructions prohibit the use of a Rotax engine at night or in IFR conditions unless it is the FAA type certificated engine (14 CFR part 33). Other engine, airframe, and accessory manufacturers might impose similar restrictions.


If you are appropriately rated and would like to operate a special light sport aircraft at night or under IFR, contact the manufacturer to determine if any provisions can be made.

So apparently an appropriately equipped LSA can fly IFR (no mention of into IMC or not...) with an appropriately rated pilot...but it still seems somewhat vague to me. Is it really that hard for the ASTM to come out with IFR/IMC standards?

 

[maddog52]

Here's what AOPA has to say about it:


So apparently an appropriately equipped LSA can fly IFR (no mention of into IMC or not...) with an appropriately rated pilot...but it still seems somewhat vague to me. Is it really that hard for the ASTM to come out with IFR/IMC standards?

There have been SLSAs equipped and certified in the past for IFR operations. We actually did the first one (a Tecnam) and several other manufacturers were able to do it because there was no prohibition against it in the ASTM standards or 8130. Unfortunately, the FAA and the ASTM committee decided that no more would be allowed until the comittee (F-37) set standards. That started at least 4 years ago and it has essentially been shelved. The problem was that some members of the comittee wanted to guarentee that there would never be an IMC related crash of an SLSA by making it too heavy to fly. Quadruple redundant systems for power supplies etc. Some proposed requirements were more stringent than Part 25 certified transport category aircraft. This led to an impasse and the process has been suspended. Until the standards are set, no more IFR certified SLSAs.

There are numerous SLSAs that exceed the equipment requirements and I would have no qualms about flying them under IFR in IMC if it was legal. The new EFIS systems in these planes make the old "Six Pack" standard look like bear skins and stone axe technology by comparison.