Low Time PPL with Low Time Question

[jimmyjack]

Need to get into OSU for the Ohio State Fair next month:

http://skyvector.com/?ll=40.1227029...026&chart=301&zoom=1&plan=A.K6.KJHW:A.K5.KOSU

I understand that I'll probably be on FF with Columbus and that at some point they'll hand me off to OSU tower. If not, how far out should I contact OSU tower and what should I advise? Just that I'm inbound from the north east, full stop to the FBO? Seems pretty easy, but no experience with a Delta.

 

[EminiTrader]

I call 10 - 15 miles out myself. But I listen to tower on comm2 to hear whats going on..

Of course call before you get in the delta.

"tower, 123AB 10 miles southeast, with bravo, full stop" thats it

 

[oregonboy109]

OSU delta is pretty easy especially if you have FF. Coming from the NE Columbus approach will hand you off to tower usually about 5-7 out. Just call up tower with your position, intentions and atis code and they will usually tell you to report crossing one of the local highways (315 or the outer belt) if your're straight in for the 27s or they will tell you to enter left or right downwind for the 9s. Then it's an easy taxi to the FBO once you land. That may sound complicated but trust me it isn't.

Hope this helps,
Sam

 

[Maciej]

I call 10 - 15 miles out myself. But I listen to tower on comm2 to hear whats going on..

Of course call before you get in the delta.

"tower, 123AB 10 miles southeast, with bravo, full stop" thats it

Just to expand on this; tower, 1234AB is x miles (north/south/east/west) of the field at x thousand y hundred inbound for a full stop, have information xyz.

 

[flyingron]

OSU is largely a piece of cake. They'll often ask you to report one of the highways on the way in, but if you don't know what that is, tell them and they'll give you better instructions.

 

[jimmyjack]

Thanks, all. Deltas in general don't have RADAR, correct? They're line of sight only?

 

[Clark1961]

One extra thing to do is get the ATIS early enough so that you can tell Columbus approach that you have it when you check in with them. Not all approach controllers will care but the sharp ones take care of that stuff on the hand-off to the tower.

 

[eman1200]

I just want to confirm, is this a general question about contacting Delta towers or OSU specifically?

 

[Clark1961]

Thanks, all. Deltas in general don't have RADAR, correct? They're line of sight only?

Deltas are hit-n-miss. Many of them do have radar. There's a good chance that they have a feed when they're that close to a Charlie.

 

[Henning]

Need to get into OSU for the Ohio State Fair next month:

http://skyvector.com/?ll=40.1227029...026&chart=301&zoom=1&plan=A.K6.KJHW:A.K5.KOSU

I understand that I'll probably be on FF with Columbus and that at some point they'll hand me off to OSU tower. If not, how far out should I contact OSU tower and what should I advise? Just that I'm inbound from the north east, full stop to the FBO? Seems pretty easy, but no experience with a Delta.

Flight Following would be your best option and typically they will hand you off to the tower. If I am coming into a Delta cold, I usually catch the ATIS 20 out and set myself up for the runway given, then make my initial call around 12 miles out advising them of my type and position relative to the field, and tell them I have the ATIS by code. From there just follow the instructions and keep your eyes out for traffic. Don't be afraid to make a set of 45° clearing turns to get a glance behind and below/above you.

 

[steingar]

You are worrying about nothing. About 15 miles out listen to the ATIS. It's a good thing, it'll give you the wind and active runways. About ten miles out call the tower. Normal stuff, who you are (your tail #), where you are, and what you want to do. You might want to mention that you listened to the ATIS, otherwise you get to hear it again. If information hotel is current, you are bugmasher N12345 with hotel. Do whatever the tower asks of you. Odds are they'll land you on one of the parallel runways, 9/27. You can ask for a frequency change from ATC if you're on FF to talk to the tower. You can go underneath the Class Charlie or possibly get a clearance to go through if you are so inclined. You should set up the ground frequency in your radio, you may be asked to monitor it, may not. I've had it both ways.

Used to be a controller there who was a real pain, I stayed away for years. Now its really no big deal. Enjoy the fair, and don't forget to check out my Origami.

 

[FlySince9]

Thanks, all. Deltas in general don't have RADAR, correct? They're line of sight only?

I understand you being a low time PP, but with a question like this, I'm just wondering what your instructor covered... Did he/she take you to any D airports?


Just ask'n

 

[Henning]

I understand you being a low time PP, but with a question like this, I'm just wondering what your instructor covered... Did he/she take you to any D airports?


Just ask'n

The question is valid, and the answer is "Maybe". There certainly exist Class D towers that have no radar facility, Jackson Hole WY being one I can think of off the top of my head since I visited their tower.

 

[Flying Viking]

I understand you being a low time PP, but with a question like this, I'm just wondering what your instructor covered... Did he/she take you to any D airports?


Just ask'n

I'm surprised it took all the way until Post #12 until one of these came along...

 

[Clark1961]

The question is valid, and the answer is "Maybe". There certainly exist Class D towers that have no radar facility, Jackson Hole WY being one I can think of off the top of my head since I visited their tower.

Sante Fe, NM is another.

On the other side of the coin, Salina, KS, does have a radar feed. I'm sure it helped to have had a Senator named Dole from the area...

 

[FlySince9]

The question is valid, and the answer is "Maybe". There certainly exist Class D towers that have no radar facility, Jackson Hole WY being one I can think of off the top of my head since I visited their tower.

Doesn't answer my question... The OP's question may be valid, but should the OP not already know the answer to such a basic question if properly trained and allowed to experience such a fundamental part of training as visiting a few Class Ds???

 

[Clark1961]

Doesn't answer my question... The OP's question may be valid, but should the OP not already know the answer to such a basic question if properly trained and allowed to experience such a fundamental part of training as visiting a few Class Ds???

D's can be tough to find depending on where you train...

 

[cgrab]

It may not be that simple so be on your toes. I was going into Tuscaloosa on gameday and Approach gave me straight in to Rwy 22. He then handed me off pretty late to the tower because of all the traffic. The tower then told me to make a left base for Rwy 11. I had to make some quick turns to get lined up.

I imagine the state fair doesn't get the traffic that a "Bama game gets but it could be busy.

 

[Henning]

Doesn't answer my question... The OP's question may be valid, but should the OP not already know the answer to such a basic question if properly trained and allowed to experience such a fundamental part of training as visiting a few Class Ds???

It depends on just how far out in Styx you live. Should? Yes, of course; should and reality don't always correlate though. As it is often referred to, PP is a license to learn, sometimes that includes remedial work.

 

[JoseCuervo]

Just to expand on this; tower, 1234AB is x miles (north/south/east/west) of the field at x thousand y hundred inbound for a full stop, have information xyz.

Why add the "miles" to the transmission? Is there a different unit of measurement used?

 

[Henning]

Why add the "miles" to the transmission? Is there a different unit of measurement used?

Heck, back before everyone had a GPS giving them exact numbers, it wouldn't matter if you used NM, SM, or KM, you would still likely be wrong by >50%. I typically call prominent land marks rather than distance if available.

 

[FlySince9]

It depends on just how far out in Styx you live. Should? Yes, of course; should and reality don't always correlate though. As it is often referred to, PP is a license to learn, sometimes that includes remedial work.

Not to be difficult, but the op is coming from KJHW... KBUF is only 52 miles away...

 

[Henning]

Not to be difficult, but the op is coming from KJHW... KBUF is only 52 miles away...

Still irrelevant. Should, yes, but that didn't happen. So now what? Answer the question or give him crap for not knowing? The majority of questions on this board are over things the person should already know.

 

[FlySince9]

Still irrelevant. Should, yes, but that didn't happen. So now what? Answer the question or give him crap for not knowing? The majority of questions on this board are over things the person should already know.

Yep... Given... I'm just always sensitive to training, especially basic issues, because of the initial, crumby, training I got... It was only after dumping several instructors that I found one that I considered competent and truly dedicated to my training...

 

[JoseCuervo]

Heck, back before everyone had a GPS giving them exact numbers, it wouldn't matter if you used NM, SM, or KM, you would still likely be wrong by >50%. I typically call prominent land marks rather than distance if available.

Or, even better, "5 south, crossing the rail road tracks".

It gets a bit more challenging when you hear "5 south, over the turnip factory".

 

[oregonboy109]

Thanks, all. Deltas in general don't have RADAR, correct? They're line of sight only?

OSU has radar from Port Columbus but they cant provide radar services (although one of the controllers said they may start providing FF in the future so OSU departures can pick it up on the ground instead of from approach once airborne.)

 

[jimmyjack]

Yep... Given... I'm just always sensitive to training, especially basic issues, because of the initial, crumby, training I got... It was only after dumping several instructors that I found one that I considered competent and truly dedicated to my training...

For your information, I landed at exactly one Delta while I was in training and it was about two years ago.

Also for your information, I'm not actually coming from JHW as no one really needs to know where jimmyjack is based. But the heading is nearly correct into Columbus, which is what counts.

Your kind of response really, really drives me up the wall. It's unhelpful and spiteful. And, like someone else said, "wow can't believe it took until post 12."

 

[coloradobluesky]

Radar hell, Ive seen Class D's that don't even have an ATIS!

 

[Ozone]

In support of kindness and decorum, I would second what several posters have said. I have been licensed since 2009, but the last 2 years, I have only flown out of class G or E without towers; either in a pipistrel, a tailwheel from 1942, or a glider plane. I haven't been near a class D in 2 years. I am glad Nick posted this, and got a reasonable answer within a few replies, because I was considering renting the '42 plane and bringing it up to KANE for the AOPA fly-in. I was just thinking the other day: "how do I make the class D calls again?" Places like this and jetcareers.com have traditionally been great for answering questions, and it doesn't do anyone any good to be snarky.

Even if you think someone has a boneheaded question, then I ask you a question in return: Would you rather they ask it here or on short final behind you?

 

[Clark1961]

Radar hell, Ive seen Class D's that don't even have an ATIS!

MHK is that way...and they only had half a runway the first time I landed there.

Now that I think about it, Salina was the same way when I landed there too. Of course half a runway at Salina is still equal to a couple runways back east...

 

[steingar]

Most of the questions are reasonable, I've been to deltas both with and without radar. But the radio equipment is largely inconsequential, the procedures are the same. Used to be the controllers wanted you to chime in when you were over a particular landmark, and they could get grumpy if you didn't. These days GPS measured distance works just fine.

 

[Henning]

Yep... Given... I'm just always sensitive to training, especially basic issues, because of the initial, crumby, training I got... It was only after dumping several instructors that I found one that I considered competent and truly dedicated to my training...

Not unusual. I have never agreed with the 250hr first job CFI model. If we're talking about internally within a 141 or University program, fine, that's cool, they're heading for the airlines, that's a different world than GA. They will get the intense training once they get their airline in doc. GA flying is different than airline flying though, and it doesn't have a disciplined system developed for it; it was given up long ago. There's a lot more nuance in GA decision making because you simultaneously have more options to consider due to looser regulations, and less options available to execute due to limited performance/ability/excess horsepower.

You don't learn that stuff until you've flown for a while, and if you haven't learned it, how can you teach it? The FAA even regards Primacy as a key, and for the FAA the job is to provide safe airline pilots, so we are taught airline flying methodology in our primacy. Big bomber patterns, final flown matching the VASI/PAPI angle carrying 40% power.... It's all wrong and poor technique for most GA planes.

 

[RotorAndWing]

You don't learn that stuff until you've flown for a while, and if you haven't learned it, how can you teach it?

But you have to admit the FAA does a pretty good job at weeding out unqualified applicants for a CFI, right?

 

[Henning]

But you have to admit the FAA does a pretty good job at weeding out unqualified applicants for a CFI, right?

Yeah, I do. I freely admit at 250hrs, I shouldn't have been instructing. However that does not mean what they are producing is correct for all the markets.

 

[woodchucker]

You will be fine. Do your research on the airspace and taxi diagrams, and don't be lazy about flight planning. You should get weather as far out as possible, 20 or 25 miles, just to get it out of the way, and also start mentally preparing for your landing. If you only have one radio, feel free to let FF know you will be off-frequency getting wx.

Easiest way to get off FF is to just let them know you have the field in sight, somewhere between 15-20 miles away to give you time to get on the radio with tower.

I used to audio record my PP lessons. Here are a few relevant snippets from my first flight into a D field with my instructor that may go along with your question. My radio calls are much, much better now. Please don't laugh at all my bumbles.

 

[FlySince9]

For your information, I landed at exactly one Delta while I was in training and it was about two years ago.

Also for your information, I'm not actually coming from JHW as no one really needs to know where jimmyjack is based. But the heading is nearly correct into Columbus, which is what counts.

Your kind of response really, really drives me up the wall. It's unhelpful and spiteful. And, like someone else said, "wow can't believe it took until post 12."

Well, as I said, this is not an attack on you... it is a training thing and a pet peeve for me... I assumed your departure point was at least close to(not necessarily) your training location...

 

[MBDiagMan]

I understand you being a low time PP, but with a question like this, I'm just wondering what your instructor covered... Did he/she take you to any D airports?


Just ask'n

The OP might have learned to fly in the boondocks like I did. Yeah, I had the obligatory trip or two to the Delta's, but I took my checkride at an uncontrolled airport and never got at all comfortable with a tower until my Mom was put in the hospital and I had to go into the DFW area only a month or two after my checkride. With coaching from some kind POA members from the Dallas area, after that experience, I was then comfortable with dealing with a tower.

It was either TangoWhiskey or AggieMike that actually wrote me a script and gave explicit directions how to midfield cross one Class D under the DFW Bravo to another. I studied the script and made the flight. They may have never known just how valuable their help was to me, not only for that particular trip, but also for moving me forward to a point where I felt comfortable with towers.

As many say, a PPL is a license to learn, so it wasn't long after my PPL checkride that I learned that. Had I learned to fly in the DFW area, I probably would have been apprehensive going to a non controlled field. It's all about what you are used to and it is important that you learn more things to add to your bag of tricks.

Complements to the OP for asking the question and working on learning more as time moves along.

 

[FlySince9]

Complements to the OP for asking the question and working on learning more as time moves alongQUOTE]

Okay...guess this is not the forum for voicing my opinion about training issues... at least not by using individuals as examples...

 

[MBDiagMan]

Complements to the OP for asking the question and working on learning more as time moves alongQUOTE]

Okay...guess this is not the forum for voicing my opinion about training issues... at least not by using individuals as examples...

So, are you saying that the OP should not ask questions and try to learn more about flying, or am I not supposed to comment on it?

What I posted was simply my way of trying to encourage him to get comfortable with the communications part of flying. We can't do anything about what his instructor did or did not cover, but we CAN encourage him to take the steps to move forward and learn more.

Jimmyjack seemed to be putting forth honest and innocent questions, seeking help to learn more and expand the types of locations he feels comfortable flying into. Since I have been in a similar position, I was trying to help him move forward. We all have to share the sky with each other, so it would seem that it would be helpful to all concerned when we help him move forward.

I meant no harm or disrespect to anyone. I was just trying to encourage.

 

[Henning]

Or, even better, "5 south, crossing the rail road tracks".

It gets a bit more challenging when you hear "5 south, over the turnip factory".

Some places "5" is easier to judge than others. TX? Easy; SW Missouri? Not so easy. I like to line myself up with an appropriate prominent land mark then call "Twin Cessna crossing the railroad bridge over the creek to the south..." Giving inaccurate information can be worse than no information.