Lost log book woes : (

So you put the old time on the first line in the logbook with a note that it was reconstructed from other records, which is completely legal. In the unlikely event that you're ready for the checkride without an additional 20 hours dual and 20 hours solo, worry about it then.

In some ways it's no different than a pilot (or aircraft) with multiple logbooks, each starts with the entry from the previous books.
 
Dana said:
So you put the old time on the first line in the logbook with a note that it was reconstructed from other records, which is completely legal. In the unlikely event that you're ready for the checkride without an additional 20 hours dual and 20 hours solo, worry about it then.

In some ways it's no different than a pilot (or aircraft) with multiple logbooks, each starts with the entry from the previous books.
Click to expand...
But it’s different in enough ways that I wouldn’t suggest that. Make the decision easy for the examiner...log it line by line.

If somebody carries time forward from previous logbooks, they still technically have to provide those previous logbooks if they’re representing that time on an 8710.
 
I would tell the OP that it is awesome that he has old receipts is awesome. He should log each flight as best as he can with the records he has got. Don’t guess, just log what you have evidence for. Also note that was reconstructed from other records, to explain why no instructor signatures.

As to training it will have no effect meeting current requirements, He will have to review and meet all the current requirement anyway and nothing from flights that old will apply to current requirements for a private pilot certificate. The only thing it may help with is the total time requirement for a Commercial or ATP rating. It is unlikely that he will meet current requirements in less than 40hrs for a private rating.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
I lost my original logbook in a divorce... I’m pretty sure she trashed it when she packed up... no proof of 400 hours, maybe more... don’t care ... would have chewed off my leg to get out of that marriage!
 
MauleSkinner said:
As others have indicated, any instructor worth his salt is going to ensure that he’s competent.
Click to expand...

Exactly.

When I was actively instructing and if a student had come up to me saying he had 30 hours from 30 years ago, even with complete log books, I would suggest starting over again because there has been changes over the years, medical certificate, airspace...etc...

Prior training in the airplane would just mean current training might hopefully go quicker.

I would not be starting at where training left off 30 years prior.

And yes, the previous 30 hours will still count for total time.
 
ElPaso Pilot said:
I have seen the notarization comment before regarding log books.

Not sure what the value of that is, other than wasting more of his time and money??
Click to expand...

The FAA accepts a signed statement of hours as evidence of a lost logbook. Notarization makes it a document sworn under oath and carries some weight of law behind it.

It is explained under Lost Logbook section of FAA Handbook/Manual 8900.1.

http://fsims.faa.gov/PICDetail.aspx?docId=8900.1,Vol.5,Ch1,Sec8

5-172 LOST LOGBOOKS OR FLIGHT RECORDS. Inspectors should advise airmen that they may reconstruct lost logbooks or flight records by providing a signed statement of previous flight time.
A. Proof of Experience. Airmen may use the following items to substantiate flight time and experience:
· Aircraft logbooks,
· Receipts for aircraft rentals,
· Operator records,
· Copies of airman medical files, and
· Copies of FAA Form 8710‑1, Airman Certificate and/or Rating Application.
 
bflynn said:
The FAA accepts a signed statement of hours as evidence of a lost logbook. Notarization makes it a document sworn under oath and carries some weight of law behind it.
Click to expand...
There’s no oath involved...notorization merely means the notary verified the identity of the person signing.
 
bflynn said:
The FAA accepts a signed statement of hours as evidence of a lost logbook. Notarization makes it a document sworn under oath and carries some weight of law behind it.

It is explained under Lost Logbook section of FAA Handbook/Manual 8900.1.

http://fsims.faa.gov/PICDetail.aspx?docId=8900.1,Vol.5,Ch1,Sec8

5-172 LOST LOGBOOKS OR FLIGHT RECORDS. Inspectors should advise airmen that they may reconstruct lost logbooks or flight records by providing a signed statement of previous flight time.
A. Proof of Experience. Airmen may use the following items to substantiate flight time and experience:
· Aircraft logbooks,
· Receipts for aircraft rentals,
· Operator records,
· Copies of airman medical files, and
· Copies of FAA Form 8710‑1, Airman Certificate and/or Rating Application.
Click to expand...


So this guy can self-certify the fulfillment of CFR 61.109 items towards a practical test endorsement by showing a couple dusty rental receipts without said items listed in said receipt? I guess the FAA is a lot more liberal than I gave them credit for. :D
 
bflynn said:
The FAA accepts a signed statement of hours as evidence of a lost logbook. Notarization makes it a document sworn under oath and carries some weight of law behind it.

It is explained under Lost Logbook section of FAA Handbook/Manual 8900.1.

http://fsims.faa.gov/PICDetail.aspx?docId=8900.1,Vol.5,Ch1,Sec8

5-172 LOST LOGBOOKS OR FLIGHT RECORDS. Inspectors should advise airmen that they may reconstruct lost logbooks or flight records by providing a signed statement of previous flight time.
Click to expand...

This simply means "Write a statement of 'lost records' and sign it. This can be done in a new logbook. It is not a requirement for a notary which does nothing but verify the identity of the person signing.

PJ
 
bflynn said:
The FAA accepts a signed statement of hours as evidence of a lost logbook. Notarization makes it a document sworn under oath and carries some weight of law behind it.

It is explained under Lost Logbook section of FAA Handbook/Manual 8900.1.

http://fsims.faa.gov/PICDetail.aspx?docId=8900.1,Vol.5,Ch1,Sec8

5-172 LOST LOGBOOKS OR FLIGHT RECORDS. Inspectors should advise airmen that they may reconstruct lost logbooks or flight records by providing a signed statement of previous flight time.
A. Proof of Experience. Airmen may use the following items to substantiate flight time and experience:
· Aircraft logbooks,
· Receipts for aircraft rentals,
· Operator records,
· Copies of airman medical files, and
· Copies of FAA Form 8710‑1, Airman Certificate and/or Rating Application.
Click to expand...

I’m not an aviation attorney, but I have never seen a reference from the FAA to notarize anything in a logbook or reconstruction, nor that it adds any value or credibility for them.
 
hindsight2020 said:
So this guy can self-certify the fulfillment of CFR 61.109 items towards a practical test endorsement by showing a couple dusty rental receipts without said items listed in said receipt? I guess the FAA is a lot more liberal than I gave them credit for. :D
Click to expand...
A pilot self-certifies many items for the FAA, medical history included.

If they find out later that it was done fraudulently, their own version of administrative law takes over and makes your certs invalid. No notary needed.
 
MauleSkinner said:
There’s no oath involved...notorization merely means the notary verified the identity of the person signing.
Click to expand...

A notary can merely witness a signature, but they can also witness the affirmation of an oath. Is it necessary? No, but it makes the statement stronger.

Either way, lots of people have been saying that the hours were lost. They were wrong. I think we all know a little more now, so good thread.
 
bflynn said:
A notary can merely witness a signature, but they can also witness the affirmation of an oath. Is it necessary? No, but it makes the statement stronger.
Click to expand...
Either way, as an examiner I’m going to need to see some supporting documentation.
 
I had a similiar issue as the OP. I flew in college and got to about 23 hours but didnt complete my PPL cert. Fast forward 23 years later, Im back in the saddle as it were... I lost my old log book and am pretty much starting over. I find that its been too long anyways and I even feel like Im starting over haha. Because at the end of the day, what are hours but just numbers? Its the experience and how well you fly are the real qualifiers...

f.
 
The guide for examiners says you need the documentation too. Absolutely a statement is not enough.
 
Chesterspal said:
I'm fairly certain I have lost my old student pilot log book. I moved a while back and lots of stuff from the basement, where this was, got tossed or misplaced. Have not flown since 1986, when I began my journey to become a PPL but had to give it up after my first solo.

Anyway, according to what I've found on the web, all may not be completely lost. There apparently is a system whereby the FAA will consider my plight and make a ruling.

I did find all the payment receipts for the plane rental (marked by hour and tenths of hours) and the instructor and it even has the plane markings for which CE-152 we used that day. I also found my solo certificate signed by my instructor. Also, bills for all the books, charts and plotters I had to purchase. Clearly, I did take flying lessons some 33 years ago. That cannot be disputed.

The school is long gone or was merged/bought with who is running the show there now so they cannot help me, I'm sure. Too much time has passed.

How bad is this for me? I'd really like to be able to get credit for all the hours (and money) I put in to this so I can move forward and now complete what I started. I added up some 30.4 hours of time at what is marked as "Dual Instructor 21".

Thanks!
Click to expand...

Speaking for myself, not my employer, but as someone who writes airman certification policy in a really large building in Washington DC, here are my thoughts.

1) Do your best to recreate your original logbook using the records you have, in accordance with the guidance you found in order 8900.1. I would do it line by line, using whatever information is available from the receipts. I would keep a copy of the receipts as an addendum to your logbook to address any questions you may have in the future.
2) When you submit your 8710-1 for a new student pilot certificate, include these hours in your submission.
3) Because you have no official record of what was included in these flights, and it is so old, none of those flights will credit towards §61.107 Flight proficiency. The flight hours do count towards §61.109 Aeronautical experience.
4) Your old endorsements are ancient at this point, but even if they weren't you still need the appropriate endorsements for the practical test. Typically an instructor would recreate them from their records.

My assessment is that your flight hours count, but with substantial changes to the Private Pilot Airman Certification Standards (previously Practical Test Standards), you'll still have quite a bit of flying to do. Your previous experience will be helpful, no doubt, but I wouldn't be surprised if the original flight hours become unnecessary to meet the requirements of 61.109.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Can you point me to where you see that?
Click to expand...

Yup.

bflynn said:
It is explained under Lost Logbook section of FAA Handbook/Manual 8900.1.

http://fsims.faa.gov/PICDetail.aspx?docId=8900.1,Vol.5,Ch1,Sec8

5-172 LOST LOGBOOKS OR FLIGHT RECORDS. Inspectors should advise airmen that they may reconstruct lost logbooks or flight records by providing a signed statement of previous flight time.
A. Proof of Experience. Airmen may use the following items to substantiate flight time and experience:
· Aircraft logbooks,
· Receipts for aircraft rentals,
· Operator records,
· Copies of airman medical files, and
· Copies of FAA Form 8710‑1, Airman Certificate and/or Rating Application.
Click to expand...
 
"Inspectors" "should" "advise" "may"
Doesn't say anything about what the DPE must do before a checkride.
 
What a can of worms I've opened, but polite disagreement is always healthy.

The local FAA in charge of my area called me today and we had a long discussion. The gist of it was this. He suggested I do (as some have already suggested), the following:

1) Create a document stating the logbook was lost but that I did have approximately 30.4 hours of, mostly, dual flight time in a Cesna 152 back in 1986. Have that notarized and made part of #2, below.

2) Create a notebook containing all the plane rental receipts in order by date along with the solo certificate.

3) Create an Excel spreadsheet detailing those receipts by date, plane #, plane hours, etc. to make it easier for anyone to scan. Add this to the notebook.

4) Purchase a new logbook and make the first line state the dual flying hours of 30.4 with the notation to "see attached".

When and if the 30.4 hours come into question down the road I can the produce the notebook and argue the point at that time.

He also suggested I write to the FAA's office of medical records (which I have done) on the off chance I submitted a form at the time of my medical that might show my hours to that point. If there is one returned, add that to the notebook.
 
BTW: That Cesna 152 rented for $35/hour back in 1986 with fuel and insurance included. Today, the fuel alone is $45/hour for the Cesna 172.

The CFI fee was $20/hour.
 
I lost my first logbook, but there were only ten or so hours in it, so I didn't bother adding those in. Heck, I didn't even log some of the hours in my own plane, was gonna add those in from the airplane's usage log, then tossed that when I sold it. Ooops. Luckily I don't need any of those hours for any ratings that I may wish to get in the future. And I don't even know where I can find my logbook right now–gotta go check the safe!
 
Chesterspal said:
What a can of worms I've opened, but polite disagreement is always healthy.

The local FAA in charge of my area called me today and we had a long discussion. The gist of it was this. He suggested I do (as some have already suggested), the following:

1) Create a document stating the logbook was lost but that I did have approximately 30.4 hours of, mostly, dual flight time in a Cesna 152 back in 1986. Have that notarized and made part of #2, below.

2) Create a notebook containing all the plane rental receipts in order by date along with the solo certificate.

3) Create an Excel spreadsheet detailing those receipts by date, plane #, plane hours, etc. to make it easier for anyone to scan. Add this to the notebook.

4) Purchase a new logbook and make the first line state the dual flying hours of 30.4 with the notation to "see attached".

When and if the 30.4 hours come into question down the road I can the produce the notebook and argue the point at that time.

He also suggested I write to the FAA's office of medical records (which I have done) on the off chance I submitted a form at the time of my medical that might show my hours to that point. If there is one returned, add that to the notebook.
Click to expand...
Sounds like a good plan. The key, IMO, is keeping the documentation notebook basically as “part of” your logs.
 
Chesterspal said:
What a can of worms I've opened, but polite disagreement is always healthy.

The local FAA in charge of my area called me today and we had a long discussion. The gist of it was this. He suggested I do (as some have already suggested), the following:

1) Create a document stating the logbook was lost but that I did have approximately 30.4 hours of, mostly, dual flight time in a Cesna 152 back in 1986. Have that notarized and made part of #2, below.

2) Create a notebook containing all the plane rental receipts in order by date along with the solo certificate.

3) Create an Excel spreadsheet detailing those receipts by date, plane #, plane hours, etc. to make it easier for anyone to scan. Add this to the notebook.

4) Purchase a new logbook and make the first line state the dual flying hours of 30.4 with the notation to "see attached".

When and if the 30.4 hours come into question down the road I can the produce the notebook and argue the point at that time.

He also suggested I write to the FAA's office of medical records (which I have done) on the off chance I submitted a form at the time of my medical that might show my hours to that point. If there is one returned, add that to the notebook.
Click to expand...

I was going to suggest getting your original medical certificate as well but it would only include the self reported hours up to the time of application, and I don't believe they have applications going back that far. That said, it doesn't cost you anything to ask.

Regarding getting the document Notarized, there's no harm done doing so, but it's unnecessary and not in the guidance. I think he misinterpreted "signed statement of previous
flight time." There's no specific format of the statement so an appropriate logbook entry is sufficient, provided you maintain the supporting material.
 
Chesterspal said:
What a can of worms I've opened, but polite disagreement is always healthy.

The local FAA in charge of my area called me today and we had a long discussion. The gist of it was this. He suggested I do (as some have already suggested), the following:

1) Create a document stating the logbook was lost but that I did have approximately 30.4 hours of, mostly, dual flight time in a Cesna 152 back in 1986. Have that notarized and made part of #2, below.

2) Create a notebook containing all the plane rental receipts in order by date along with the solo certificate.

3) Create an Excel spreadsheet detailing those receipts by date, plane #, plane hours, etc. to make it easier for anyone to scan. Add this to the notebook.

4) Purchase a new logbook and make the first line state the dual flying hours of 30.4 with the notation to "see attached".

When and if the 30.4 hours come into question down the road I can the produce the notebook and argue the point at that time.

He also suggested I write to the FAA's office of medical records (which I have done) on the off chance I submitted a form at the time of my medical that might show my hours to that point. If there is one returned, add that to the notebook.
Click to expand...

and then, after completing those notebook(s), take photos of each page and store away safely, then scan every page to pdf and store away safely as well. Then, do the same with each newly completed page in your new logbook, as well as every new endorsement.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top