Lost comm Question

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Tommar98

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Tommar98
I’m reviewing for my instrument check ride and was going over lost comm procedures which I think I have a solid grasp of. However I haven’t got a good answer for what you would do if your were cleared to land at towered airport and then lost comms. (Assiniboine actual iMac weather conditions) I would fly the published missed and then do all the double checks on radios and circuit breakers; try 121.5, VOR, FSS, etc. Squawk 7600. Assuming I didn’t have comms - where to next after the hold?

My clearance limit was the runway in last communication. No EFC obviously. I could certainly attempt the last approach again but technically there is no clearance for that. I could fly to my alternate (though I’m not required to) - then comes the question of what route to alternate? Your feedback would be welcome.


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If Cleared to land....you land....or at least shoot the approach.

Aviate, Navigate, Communicate.


And honestly, if I'm shooting the approach at a towered field, and I lost coms, I'm going below DH, and landing anyway. 100fpm, and wait till the wheels go bump.
 
Walboy said:
Not sure I understand your question. You flew the approach and went missed because at DH there are no visual references required by 91.175 (c) (3) or you flew the missed because of the comm failure?

As @EdFred said, if cleared to land, you land.
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Agreed. Unless you have another reason for going missed or going around, you land. There really isn't any other reasonable choice.
 
So to clarify: I guess it doesn’t matter if it’s towered airport or not. I only put that in there to clarify that tower cleared me to land - The key issue is my last communication was cleared for approach/land and then I elect not to land because I can’t establish runway environment. Then I lose comms. Doesn’t seem like their is a specific answer for this. For example if radar vector is required then I couldn’t start over - but could I chose to fly another approach to same runway?
 
91.3
Land that mofo


How often does a tower clear an airplane to land when the field is below minimums?
 
To me this seems like an unlikely scenario to have happen. If you're close enough to an airport that you're on with tower and they've cleared you to land there is a reasonable possibility that you wouldn't even recognize that you have a loss of communication until you're on the runway anyway, looking for instructions to turn off or taxi, or going missed.
 
Land the plane, going missed will be a confusing event for all involved.
 
mondtster said:
To me this seems like an unlikely scenario to have happen. If you're close enough to an airport that you're on with tower and they've cleared you to land there is a reasonable possibility that you wouldn't even recognize that you have a loss of communication until you're on the runway anyway, looking for instructions to turn off or taxi, or going missed.
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How is this unlikely? I get to DA on the ILS and have to go missed then discover I have no radios.


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Tommar98 said:
How is this unlikely? I get to DA on the ILS and have to go missed then discover I have no radios.


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That wasn't the situation you presented in your original post. You're going to the Tom Downey School of posting LOL
 
You've only been cleared to land at a towered field 3 times?
;)
 
Tommar98 said:
However I haven’t got a good answer for what you would do if your were cleared to land at towered airport and then lost comms
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One of the big reasons you get clearances, including the whole route being read to you before you depart, is for the whole lost comm scenario. If you lose comms ATC is expecting you to fly your cleared route with the appropriate altitudes (there is more nuance than this, but you get the point). I can't imagine why you would go missed.. then what? Circle around and ultimately attempt the landing again? You were cleared to land.. land the airplane?? What am I missing
 
EdFred said:
You've only been cleared to land at a towered field 3 times?
;)
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I’ve only gone missed at a towered field 3 times...and per your question that I answered originally, that’s 3 times for me that a tower has cleared an airplane to land when it was below minimums.

Technically it’s been 4 times...I was once cleared to land when it was below minimums, but when I got to DA it was at minimums, so I landed.
 
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Walboy said:
I have always considered the requirement to have an alternate as contingency planning for a lost comms situation.
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But alternates are mentioned in the FARs in conjunction with fuel requirements, not lost comm requirements. I'd say it's meant to allow enough fuel to reach better weather, which might not be where it was forecasted to be back when you filed. The destination wasn't as good either.
 
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Think about this second. Approach has cleared you to intercept, maintain an altitude, and cleared you for the approach. Before the final fix ATC advises to contact tower and you receive WX and a landing clearance from the tower.

After this point the tower does not normally contact you again and you don’t contact the tower. What communication was lost?

Tommar98 said:
How is this unlikely? I get to DA on the ILS and have to go missed then discover I have no radios.


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Actually this is very unlikely and in fact you can communicate. 7600 on the transponder will advise ATC of the issue followed by 7700 will basically tell ATC you are doing what you little heart desires. That is assuming you didn’t have a full electrical failure, which also is very unlikely.
 
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Tommar98 said:
So to clarify: I guess it doesn’t matter if it’s towered airport or not. I only put that in there to clarify that tower cleared me to land - The key issue is my last communication was cleared for approach/land and then I elect not to land because I can’t establish runway environment. Then I lose comms. Doesn’t seem like their is a specific answer for this. For example if radar vector is required then I couldn’t start over - but could I chose to fly another approach to same runway?
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I'd give consideration to going to my alternate. I'm assuming I flight planned for one. I suppose the weather that prevented you from seeing the runway environment could have been unforecast and a surprise though so you didn't plan for an alternate. If I felt that that the odds were pretty good I might get the runway next time, I might try the Approach again. Read AIM 6-4-1 a. Now read it again. One more time. That's as specific as you're going to find. By the time you've began the Approach you've already used up everything FAR 91.185 has to say about it except if you get VFR, stay so and land if you can.
 
EdFred said:
91.3
Land that mofo


How often does a tower clear an airplane to land when the field is below minimums?
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What is below minimums for one aircraft and crew, may be above minimums for another.
 
EdFred said:
91.3
Land that mofo


How often does a tower clear an airplane to land when the field is below minimums?
Click to expand...

Clearances are based on traffic. It's the pilots responsibility to comply with minimums. They can clear you to land when it's WOXOF as long they don't let two airplanes do it at the same time.
 
Tommar98 said:
How is this unlikely? I get to DA on the ILS and have to go missed then discover I have no radios.


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How likely is it that your modern radio equipment will fail? Take that group and limit it to situations in which your navigation equipment will still be operative to navigate the missed. Then limit that group to situations in which it will happen after your landing clearance is received on a day when the ILS is below minimums.

That will give you an idea of how unlikely the scenario is. And if it happens, I'd say it was an emergency and you throw the rules out the window.
 
midlifeflyer said:
How likely is it that your modern radio equipment will fail? Take that group and limit it to situations in which your navigation equipment will still be operative to navigate the missed. Then limit that group to situations in which it will happen after your landing clearance is received on a day when the ILS is below minimums.

That will give you an idea of how unlikely the scenario is. And if it happens, I'd say it was an emergency and you throw the rules out the window.
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Probably not the best answer for a checkride, though . ;)
 
MauleSkinner said:
Probably not the best answer for a checkride, though . ;)
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I was only addressing the "likely" question.

But I'm not so sure "it's an event not contemplated by the the lost comm rules. depending what else is wrong, it might be an emergency," and describing your best risk management (a big part of checkrides nowadays) course of action is not the best answer answer.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Probably not the best answer for a checkride, though . ;)
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I disagree. If the examiner throws a low-probability emergency situation at you and the safest answer is to exercise PIC authority to deviate from any and all regulations, then that is the correct answer to give.
 
iamtheari said:
I disagree. If the examiner throws a low-probability emergency situation at you and the safest answer is to exercise PIC authority to deviate from any and all regulations, then that is the correct answer to give.
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Unless it appears to the examiner that it’s a cop-out to avoid having to understand the reg in question.

And if you read 91.3 carefully, it doesn’t give as much latitude as people like to believe.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Unless it appears to the examiner that it’s a cop-out to avoid having to understand the reg in question.

And if you read 91.3 carefully, it doesn’t give as much latitude as people like to believe.
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It's a terrible cop-out, but sometimes it's the right answer. I agree that the examiner is not going to be impressed by an applicant who uses it as a cop-out. But the examiner also doesn't want you to spend an hour trying to lawyer your way into a smoking hole in the ground by agonizing over the gray-area corner cases of the lost comms regulations.

In other words, you need to know what 91.185 covers and what it doesn't, and be prepared to know what 91.3 covers if you are thrown a curve ball just outside of the lost comms regulation. 91.185 is predicated on loss of comms while en route, which is a much more likely scenario than losing them when you're 200 feet above the runway at a towered airport. If you are really so unlucky that you lose contact with all ATC facilities when you are inside a cloud basically at eye level with the control tower, the answer is to fly the airplane and do whatever it takes to get safely on the ground.

Of course, you should make a serious effort to re-establish contact with ATC before you give up. In the real world, if you can't reach some ATC facility to tell them you are going missed, it's because you are at an airport without a control tower and you are below the altitude at which they can be reached. The missed approach procedures at those airports are designed in part to get you back in touch with ATC. I wouldn't consider my comms lost until I was in the missed approach holding pattern. And by that point, I would already have an idea of what I'd be asking ATC to do for me (clear me to an approach that has a higher chance of successful landing, such as one at my alternate with better weather, lower approach minimums, or both). If I can't reach ATC to ask for it, then I'll just go fly it.
 
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