Looks like an Icing accident

RyanB

RyanB

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A guy I follow on Youtube that makes great Aviation videos was involved in an accident the end of January in WI. He's an instructor and most of his videos include that. I wont say any names, but I will say its always sobering to hear of someone you know involved in an accident. My question is, by reading the NTSB report, does it seem as though they knew of the icing but decided to fly anyway? Or was this an event in which they thought they could outclimb it but couldnt, especially how do you all think this could have been avoided?

NTSB: http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/NTSB.Aviation/brief.aspx?ev_id=20150126X31505&key=1
 
Just shows you it can happen to anyone. I personally won't mess with icing in any way. If there is the slightest hint there is going to be icing I'm not going. Call me chicken.
 
narchee said:
Just shows you it can happen to anyone. I personally won't mess with icing in any way. If there is the slightest hint there is going to be icing I'm not going. Call me chicken.
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Sure does. I try to be the same way, any moisture close to the freezing level its a no go. I am surprised they tried to climb through ice in a 182, but Im not pointing any fingers
 
Ryanb said:
A guy I follow on Youtube that makes great Aviation videos was involved in an accident the end of January in WI. He's an instructor and most of his videos include that. I wont say any names, but I will say its always sobering to hear of someone you know involved in an accident. My question is, by reading the NTSB report, does it seem as though they knew of the icing but decided to fly anyway? Or was this an event in which they thought they could outclimb it but couldnt, especially how do you all think this could have been avoided?

NTSB: http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/NTSB.Aviation/brief.aspx?ev_id=20150126X31505&key=1
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1. It sounds like they were flying a plane that had no anti-icing capabilities and thus had no business flying in or near icing conditions (e.g. through visible moisture at subzero temps; aka the clouds). That's a basic flight safety item covered by the written PPL exam.

2. If through negligence or bad luck one finds they have violated 1 and start observing any ice whatsoever on something like a 182 one must divert and land IMMEDIATELY. It sounds like they continued to fly and tried experimenting with different altitudes and such. If you start observing actual ice buildup then clearly there are icing conditions and if you're in something like a 182 your only course of action should be to get the hell out of there and back on the ground ASAP.

Obviously the final NTSB report will make the final official call, but based on their initial comments it seems like the accident was a result of breaking rules 1 and 2 above.
 
Said the aircraft was a 182L no ice protection
 
narchee said:
Just shows you it can happen to anyone. I personally won't mess with icing in any way. If there is the slightest hint there is going to be icing I'm not going. Call me chicken.
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I'm with you on this one. people don't generally get in accidents because they are too careful.
 
I will opine that this was mostly a get-home-itis issue. Reposition a plane, people are on a schedule, everything is paid for and making another trip later will cost more, and reduce the utility of the new plane to the buyer.

I treat ANY ice as an emergency. Turn toward the nearest runway, declare for priority handling, and get it on the ground before the plane turns into a popsicle. Alternately, if there is VMC behind you, turn around, and get out of the ice conditions, then get on the ground and find a way around, or scrub.
 
docmirror said:
I treat ANY ice as an emergency. Turn toward the nearest runway, declare for priority handling, and get it on the ground before the plane turns into a popsicle. Alternately, if there is VMC behind you, turn around, and get out of the ice conditions, then get on the ground and find a way around, or scrub.
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I've not flown in any IMC myself but I assume the second I see any ice forming my goal would be to land.
 
If the aircraft is capable of FIKI, I would have no problem of flying in icing conditions.
I would imagine being in WI during January, in IMC, icing conditions would be very likely. The thing I've gathered from this is, when they noticed the icing accumulating on the aircraft they should have descended and diverted right then, instead of trying to outclimb the ice and not being able to. When it comes to aviation, Mother Nature usually wins
 
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Based on the student pilot's comments, I think there is one silver lining to this story. While the decision making that got them into the mess was poor, it sounds like they eventually recognized the seriousness of the situation and tried to land on a road. That could be what saved two of the lives on the plane. This story could have ended much differently had they pressed on, desperate to make an airport, despite an icy ceiling above them.

On the other hand, had they continued scud running perhaps more of the ice on the windshield would have blown off eventually to allow for a safer emergency landing.
 
I don't award bonus points to anyone for getting themselves out of a self-inflicted emergency. Especially where someone died in the process. I can see myself as a rated pilot sitting in the back of the plane, watching it ice up, and these guys in front just blithely marching on at various altitudes like they were trying to figure out if they wanted a Mocha grande or French press at the coffee bar. After about a minute of that I would have had a shoelace around the CFIs neck with clear instructions to turn toward the nearest VMC or airport, declare, and get it on the ground. At that point, I will be taken into custody - alive and face the consequences of my attack while I'm still alive.
 
Ryanb said:
If the aircraft is capable of FIKI, I would have no problem of flying in icing conditions.
I would imagine being in WI during January, in IMC, icing conditions would be very likely. The thing I've gathered from this is, when they noticed the icing accumulating on the aircraft they should have descended and diverted right then, instead of trying to outclimb the ice and not being able to. When it comes to aviation, Mother Nature usually wins
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FIKI is to escape not to plod along. I fly a FIKI twin and there are still many no-go days. A lot of ice can happen really quickly.
 
Very sad. I wish the NTSB would state in their reports who sat where and the type of restraint the various pax had. Obviously in this case it sounds like the student owner was left seat the CFI right and the pilot pax in the back. So the guy in the back died, I'd like to know of what, presumably blunt force trauma, but to what part of his body, and what type of restraint system he had on, ie lap belt, shoulder belt 4point, three point etc.
 
By watching his videos, he seems like a good pilot and CFI. A sad case for sure.
 
Oh man. How does a pilot/pax in the back seat who is related to the CFI let it get to this point? I can understand reluctance if the pilot/pax in the rear was just another stick jockey, but being related and not speaking up at some time while they plodded along gathering ice?
 
docmirror said:
Oh man. How does a pilot/pax in the back seat who is related to the CFI let it get to this point? I can understand reluctance if the pilot/pax in the rear was just another stick jockey, but being related and not speaking up at some time while they plodded along gathering ice?
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I'm not seeing the "plodding along" part, at least not from the NTSB report. I'm fully on board with criticizing the decision to launch into IMC, but once they got ice they tried to climb above it, then tried to descend below it. They eventually popped out below the clouds, and unable to maintain altitude, made an emergency landing on a road.

The pilots confessed, climbed, communicated, and complied as best they could. They diverted to the nearest airport. What more would any of us have done?

To cast significant judgment on this I want to know what the weather reports were before they launched and where the ceiling and cloud tops were supposed to be, where the freezing level was, etc.
 
Ryanb said:
A guy I follow on Youtube that makes great Aviation videos was involved in an accident the end of January in WI. He's an instructor and most of his videos include that. I wont say any names, but I will say its always sobering to hear of someone you know involved in an accident. My question is, by reading the NTSB report, does it seem as though they knew of the icing but decided to fly anyway? Or was this an event in which they thought they could outclimb it but couldnt, especially how do you all think this could have been avoided?

NTSB: http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/NTSB.Aviation/brief.aspx?ev_id=20150126X31505&key=1
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Sorry, but that's just poor decision making there. Heading for Alaska in January and departing in IMC with a no de ice plane? Why not wait for the next weather window? They are rarely more than three days away. It doesn't need to be perfect, just good to stay VFR. Winter and IMC up north are not a particularly friendly environment for GA operations even if you have deicing gear. Without it is something I choose not to do.
 
The weather in Alaska and the PNW hasn't been too bad this year but they had to go through worse than normal weather patterns to get there.

Anybody have the weather at their departure time? I can't pull it up here at work.
 
docmirror said:
I will opine that this was mostly a get-home-itis issue. Reposition a plane, people are on a schedule, everything is paid for and making another trip later will cost more, and reduce the utility of the new plane to the buyer.

I treat ANY ice as an emergency. Turn toward the nearest runway, declare for priority handling, and get it on the ground before the plane turns into a popsicle. Alternately, if there is VMC behind you, turn around, and get out of the ice conditions, then get on the ground and find a way around, or scrub.
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This is why ferry pilots exist, we have the time to wait, our job is to get the plane home to you safely in the next little while, take care of any issues that pop up along the way, all while you maintain your schedule that lets you afford your plane.
 
dukeblue219 said:
I'm not seeing the "plodding along" part, at least not from the NTSB report. I'm fully on board with criticizing the decision to launch into IMC, but once they got ice they tried to climb above it, then tried to descend below it. They eventually popped out below the clouds, and unable to maintain altitude, made an emergency landing on a road.

The pilots confessed, climbed, communicated, and complied as best they could. They diverted to the nearest airport. What more would any of us have done?

To cast significant judgment on this I want to know what the weather reports were before they launched and where the ceiling and cloud tops were supposed to be, where the freezing level was, etc.
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Well, in a prev post I already said what I would do. Once again: As soon as ice is discovered - Turn to the nearest landing site, declare an emergency, and land asap. Alternative, if there is known VMC in some direction, go there as soon as you can.

I don't fly in ice, and heck even the guy above who has a FIKI plane admits it's not fool proof 100% of the time.
 
He stated that the CFI had a small area between the size of a golf ball and a baseball in which he was able to see out of the windshield.
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along with an inch of ice on the wings? I'd be a very religious man at that point.
 
red4golf said:
The weather in Alaska and the PNW hasn't been too bad this year but they had to go through worse than normal weather patterns to get there.

Anybody have the weather at their departure time? I can't pull it up here at work.
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No, they didn't, they could have waited.
 
Given how ice limits the utility of aircraft, I'm suprised we don't see more planes with FIKI capability in the GA fleet.
 
dans2992 said:
Given how ice limits the utility of aircraft, I'm suprised we don't see more planes with FIKI capability in the GA fleet.
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Well, cost and complexity are the major factors. If you buy a new plane you have quite a few options in small FIKI singles.
 
Ryanb said:
If the aircraft is capable of FIKI, I would have no problem of flying in icing conditions.
I would imagine being in WI during January, in IMC, icing conditions would be very likely. The thing I've gathered from this is, when they noticed the icing accumulating on the aircraft they should have descended and diverted right then, instead of trying to outclimb the ice and not being able to. When it comes to aviation, Mother Nature usually wins
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Caveat: All that FIKI does for you is provide time to find a way out of the icing conditions...it is not permission to continue to fly in icing conditions. This is Appendix C to Part 25 (which applies to Part 23 by reference):

http://tinyurl.com/o2auo3p

Notice in the descriptions of maximum continuous and intermittent that there are mileage limits...stay in icing beyond those limits and your icing certification is no longer valid.

Bob Gardner
 
Everything in aviation is "it depends". I fly in IMC all the time below freezing. Certain parts of the country this is unavoidable much of the year. Freezing and clouds do not guarantee icing, no more than clouds guarantee a thunderstorm.
 
AdamZ said:
Very sad. I wish the NTSB would state in their reports who sat where and the type of restraint the various pax had. Obviously in this case it sounds like the student owner was left seat the CFI right and the pilot pax in the back. So the guy in the back died, I'd like to know of what, presumably blunt force trauma, but to what part of his body, and what type of restraint system he had on, ie lap belt, shoulder belt 4point, three point etc.
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I would bet that the pax was in the right rear seat with only a lap belt.
 
red4golf said:
The weather in Alaska and the PNW hasn't been too bad this year but they had to go through worse than normal weather patterns to get there.

Anybody have the weather at their departure time? I can't pull it up here at work.
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Henning said:
No, they didn't, they could have waited.
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I agree 100% that they could have waited. All I was saying was that Alaska and the PNW are warmer than normal with good flying weather unlike other years.

A flight that might have been possible in the central to northern central US would have stalled in Idaho or Washington in previous years. This year it was quite the opposite.
 
red4golf said:
I agree 100% that they could have waited. All I was saying was that Alaska and the PNW are warmer than normal with good flying weather unlike other years.

A flight that might have been possible in the central to northern central US would have stalled in Idaho or Washington in previous years. This year it was quite the opposite.
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Yep, that's what makes it all the sadder, all they had to do was wait for the system to get past them another 12-18 hrs if that.
 
dukeblue219 said:
I'm not seeing the "plodding along" part, at least not from the NTSB report. I'm fully on board with criticizing the decision to launch into IMC, but once they got ice they tried to climb above it, then tried to descend below it. They eventually popped out below the clouds, and unable to maintain altitude, made an emergency landing on a road.

The pilots confessed, climbed, communicated, and complied as best they could. They diverted to the nearest airport. What more would any of us have done?

To cast significant judgment on this I want to know what the weather reports were before they launched and where the ceiling and cloud tops were supposed to be, where the freezing level was, etc.
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Like I say I'm not pointing any fingers, it does say in the NTSB report, that they knew they would be flying in weather. Also by my post of FIKI aircraft systems, I mean having the protection needed to be safe in icing conditions, whether it just be FIKI or full certified ice protection, rather that having nothing.
 
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red4golf said:
I agree 100% that they could have waited. All I was saying was that Alaska and the PNW are warmer than normal with good flying weather unlike other years.

A flight that might have been possible in the central to northern central US would have stalled in Idaho or Washington in previous years. This year it was quite the opposite.
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How many hours did the CFI have total? How many flying in icing conditions? He made a very bad decision, in an airplane Not equipped correctly. Reminds me of the terrible decision " Larry" the pilot made when he took off from national in D.C. (Air florida) In a snow storm. The right seat said....." We are going down larry!" larrys answer...." Yes I know." He should have waited also. ( it was later reported larry had never flown in snow or very cold weather.)
 
Alexb2000 said:
Everything in aviation is "it depends". I fly in IMC all the time below freezing. Certain parts of the country this is unavoidable much of the year. Freezing and clouds do not guarantee icing, no more than clouds guarantee a thunderstorm.
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How can you be certain there will not be icing in those clouds if the temps are freezing?
 
I am far from an expert, but I will pontificate anyway. if the temps were 0 - -10 C that isn't quite cold enough for me to be "comfortable" in IMC or visible moisture conditions. Were there any Pireps for icing in the area or along the route? If not, maybe they thought they could go thru despite the temperature/clouds. If there were pireps and they still launched, that's very stupid.
When they began picking up ice, they tried one of the suggested remedies to icing, change altitudes. It didn't work. So they descended below IMC and that seemed to stop the icing.

At this point they have problems maintaining altitude and cant see very well due to ice. I don't know how many airports were nearby but if they crashed 40nm from one they had to be closer to something else.

That is where I would really fault the DM. They got iced up, couldn't get out of the icing and it didn't seem like they really understood they needed Direct nearest to land ASAP.

I have seen light trace ice a couple times. Always under/near clouds or precip VFR and with an easy out, airport or turn away from precip. The rate of accumulation, if you can call a few drops here and there accumulation, was so slow I wasn't worried. If I actually saw rime building up like they describe, I would be on the ground somewhere long before I could not maintain altitude.

On the crash, since the fatality and serious injury were on the right side of the aircraft it sounds like that side took more tree damage. That may explain why the rear right passenger died. And its not the usual lap belt of death.

Just one IA students opinions...
 
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