Looking to purchase a plane

Freight Dog

Freight Dog

Filing Flight Plan
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Jul 18, 2011
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Rob
Hello everyone, this is my first post here. I figured this forum would be appropriate to ask some questions regarding aircraft ownership and get some good answers.

Basically, I'm looking to buy a plane. The mission would be licenses/ratings/time building for my wife and kids - one is ready now and the other is 14 but definitely wants to be a professional pilot.

I budgeted 25k or under towards a purchase. I do not want to finance anything.

The aircraft I'm interested in are:

C-150/152 and 172
Piper Cherokee 140
Piper Colt or Tri Pacer
Piper Tomahawk

I saw some nice looking 172's for cheap, but they're high time airframes, and some have engines past TBO. If engine time is half the TBO, but airframe has 11,000+ hours... is it still a show stopper?

What about Colt or Tri Pacer for training? Ideally, I'd like the aircraft to be an IFR plane or at least equipped for IFR, and not many of those are.

I'm also interested in a Tomahawk, but some of these AD's are concerning me. Can anyone give me an idea of how much some of those AD's cost (not replacing the wing, but the tail section AD's). I'm aware of the stall/spin issues and think it makes a great trainer.

150 or 152, well.... They're tight (we're a tall family), but I managed to build my time way back in a 152, and I'm 6'7". Not comfy at all with an instructor... but if that's what it takes.....

What are some of the 'gotchas' that you guys have experienced? Seriously, any wisdom is greatly appreciated.

Thanks gang!
 
Welcome to POA. I think it will be easier to find an IFR Cherokee 140, 172 and tri pacer than the others but I'm sure they exist somewhere. For 25K you are not going to find a low time airframe. There is a nice 172 H IFR cert for sale by Bob Ciotti on POA for under 25K. Its a smooth plane but has a shot gun panel if that is an issue for you. I think what ever way you go you will be fine.
 
Bob's 172 would be good... But otherwise, 172's tend to be more expensive than some of their brethren from other manufacturers, all else being equal. I'd probably lean towards the Cherokees if I were you.
 
I've heard the tripacer is a lot of airplane for the buck, but you do have some issues (tube and fabric) that don't come with metal planes. Cherokees do tend to run a bit less than Skyhawks, and do have back seats that can take midgets and spawn. $25K is pushing it, but I bet one could be had with judicious shopping. Good luck. Just remember, the purchase price is just the entry fee. I would have 10% of that available to deal with immediate squawks, and have the mechanic who does your prebuy do your annuals.
 
Thank you! Could you give me a link? I couldn't find it under Classifieds thread or I might be blind. :)

Basically, I'd like a flyable plane and I'm looking to put on 250-300 hours per year on it, and I hope to be able to do it without it becoming a maintenance hog or a project. I don't mind older planes if they were well-maintained. Someone told me not long ago that getting a 172 for under 45k is buying a project. Any truth to that?

I've also looked at Tomahawks, and here's one I'm somewhat interested in:

http://www.trade-a-plane.com/detail/Single+Engine+Piston/1978/Piper/Tomahawk/1082348.html

Can anyone shoot some holes through this? I see that I'll have to comply with AD 82-27-08, but to my understanding, that's replacing the vertical fin forward spar attachment plate.

Any ideas and thoughts are greatly appreciated!
 
steingar said:
I would have 10% of that available to deal with immediate squawks, and have the mechanic who does your prebuy do your annuals.
Click to expand...

That's kinda what I'm planning for. Ideally, I'd like a Texas bird as I intend to keep the plane at KCXO (at least for now), and hopefully have the prebuy done by the same shop that would do my regular maintenance.

But what's your advice if you purchase the plane from a few states away?
 
Freight Dog said:
Hello everyone, this is my first post here. I figured this forum would be appropriate to ask some questions regarding aircraft ownership and get some good answers.

Basically, I'm looking to buy a plane. The mission would be licenses/ratings/time building for my wife and kids - one is ready now and the other is 14 but definitely wants to be a professional pilot.

I budgeted 25k or under towards a purchase. I do not want to finance anything.

The aircraft I'm interested in are:

C-150/152 and 172
Piper Cherokee 140
Piper Colt or Tri Pacer
Piper Tomahawk

I saw some nice looking 172's for cheap, but they're high time airframes, and some have engines past TBO. If engine time is half the TBO, but airframe has 11,000+ hours... is it still a show stopper?

What about Colt or Tri Pacer for training? Ideally, I'd like the aircraft to be an IFR plane or at least equipped for IFR, and not many of those are.

I'm also interested in a Tomahawk, but some of these AD's are concerning me. Can anyone give me an idea of how much some of those AD's cost (not replacing the wing, but the tail section AD's). I'm aware of the stall/spin issues and think it makes a great trainer.

150 or 152, well.... They're tight (we're a tall family), but I managed to build my time way back in a 152, and I'm 6'7". Not comfy at all with an instructor... but if that's what it takes.....

What are some of the 'gotchas' that you guys have experienced? Seriously, any wisdom is greatly appreciated.

Thanks gang!
Click to expand...

You are 6'7" and your kids are going to be also?

I'd not choose any of the aircraft you mention.

C-182s are not that much more expensive or harder to learn to fly and you will be much more comfortable in that size cabin.

find a club with a 182 and instructors and join.
 
Tom-D said:
C-182s are not that much more expensive or harder to learn to fly and you will be much more comfortable in that size cabin.

find a club with a 182 and instructors and join.
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But his budget is $25k.

(The only time I see C-182s priced comparable to some C-15Xs is when the C-15X sellers set outrageous asking prices.)
 
Tom-D said:
You are 6'7" and your kids are going to be also?

I'd not choose any of the aircraft you mention.

C-182s are not that much more expensive or harder to learn to fly and you will be much more comfortable in that size cabin.

find a club with a 182 and instructors and join.
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Stinson 108
 
One of the big reasons of wanting my own plane in addition to getting everyone to build time is not being bound by scheduling restrictions of clubs and other rental places. Kids won't be as tall as me - they're girls. :)

Also, from what I gathered from calculators, if the plane is used more than 100-150 hours a year, you're better off owning as opposed to renting.

When I was building time, I flew 152's to get X-C time. I went on some nice trips in 172's as well. I flew skydivers in 1958 C-182A's. Though I like 182's, they're outside of my price range at this point.

Basically, I'm looking for an economical plane that can be used as a trainer, and I'd like to be able to fit in it. :)
 
Jim Logajan said:
But his budget is $25k.

(The only time I see C-182s priced comparable to some C-15Xs is when the C-15X sellers set outrageous asking prices.)
Click to expand...

There's an ad on Controller for a 1982 VFR C-152 with 6500TTAF and granted with only 200 hours SMOH, formerly used for flight training and the asking price is 42k! :yikes:

I am not opposed to getting a 150 or 152, but I imagine that for my budget, I should be able to get a pretty decent plane, Canucks notwithstanding. ;)
 
$25k for a downpayment, or $25k all in?????

Training only, or $1000 hamburgers with only 2 folks in the plane? No XC time wit da family?

I bet you could get a decent Beech Sport for 25k. It would have more headroom than anything else I can think of at that price range. Not much climb rate, but neither has a TriPacer or Colt.

I assume you would have access to another $10k in readily-available funds to take care of all the crap that will inevitably arise in yr 1 of ownership?
 
flyersfan31 said:
$25k for a downpayment, or $25k all in?????

Training only, or $1000 hamburgers with only 2 folks in the plane? No XC time wit da family?

I bet you could get a decent Beech Sport for 25k. It would have more headroom than anything else I can think of at that price range. Not much climb rate, but neither has a TriPacer or Colt.

I assume you would have access to another $10k in readily-available funds to take care of all the crap that will inevitably arise in yr 1 of ownership?
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Ideally, I'd like something that can do it all. I know I'm gonna fall into a trap of spending more than I budget hence the lower budget. ;)

25k is my acquisition cost. I do have cash for maintenance/operating costs, but don't want to buy a project if I can help it.
 
Freight Dog said:
Ideally, I'd like something that can do it all. I know I'm gonna fall into a trap of spending more than I budget hence the lower budget. ;)

25k is my acquisition cost. I do have cash for maintenance/operating costs, but don't want to buy a project if I can help it.
Click to expand...

All used aircraft are projects, wither you think so or not.
 
My first piper was a 1968 cherokee 140 so I know it to be good gentle and forgiving aircraft to start flying. I had my first 12 hours in a C 172 but didn't want to buy one. As you have seen, there are multiple PA-28 140 available under $25 K on trade a plane that are not high time nor high engine. What do you think about the Key Lime Green one? I've had a Piper Commache 250, and then a Piper Cherokee 180 that I traded on a Piper Dakota. At one time, the fellow that took the 1963 PA-28 180 on trade had it listed on Trade a plane for $25K. I put 192 hours on it and know it to be a reliable unit. Check with Cecil Ice, Pierre, SD (605) 224-2916. See if he still has it. It would be a good starter.
 
I've been around aviation for a while. From USMC A6 squardron in 74, A&P 78, 4 major airlines (and other places) working in maint and engineering, some military flight test time etc. In the last 5 years I finally got my pilot ticket (3rd time I started training over the years). So I had a clue about GA, but have large holes to backfill and lots changed over the years..

I'm also thinking about buying an aircraft. I bought a copy of the book, Purchasing and Evaluating Airplanes by Brian M Jacobson, used on Amazon. Also got Aircraft Ownership by Raymond Speciale.

I found Jacobson's book to be an excellent resourse for evaluating the ads.
Speciale's book was good to help me realize all the legal things that can go wrong.

A lot of that material probaly will not apply for guys like you and me spending under $200,000 for an airplane. But it is good to know.

Also AOPA has a lot of resources and will help with some records checks for free.

I have one cross country to go, MEM to BOS then I'll start looking. Here are my notes (raw)for whatever they are worth.

Notes_Buying_Aircraft
Resources
AOPA Agreement Examples
AOPA Buying Tips
Asses Insurance Costs in advance
Model Costs in Advance
No TOP Overhauls
Get at least 800 HRS on quality engine
Search NTSB Accident Reports by registration
Have AOPA service get aircraft registration records
AOPA has free Vref Appraisal Tools
Get Pre-Buy
Fly It
Have Hours in Type
Title Search
AOPA Tax Tips
Escroll Services for pre buy
If seller closer, transaction costs will be cheaper.
　
　
1 - Find A/C ad,
2 - Eval asking price using Vref at AOPA site
3 - Check WWW and NTSB accident history
Milestone - All OK
4 - Call owner/broker
Questions:
Why Selling?
Have all Logs, all pages?
Whats wrong with A/C now?
Have exclusive right to sell?
When can I see?
Arrange pre-buy
Don't negotiate price until prebuy complete?

I don't mind sharing, hope this helps,
 
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I've also looked at Tomahawks, and here's one I'm somewhat interested in:

http://www.trade-a-plane.com/detail/Single+Engine+Piston/1978/Piper/Tomahawk/1082348.html

Can anyone shoot some holes through this? I see that I'll have to comply with AD 82-27-08, but to my understanding, that's replacing the vertical fin forward spar attachment plate.

Any ideas and thoughts are greatly appreciated!
Click to expand...

I started my training in a 172 and finished in a Tomahawk. Great flying airplanes, I see them under $20k all the time on Barnstomers.com. The CG is very sensitive and seat position is used in the calculation.

I watched them do the vertical fin forward attachment spar AD on the plane I past my check ride in. It wasn't very difficult, and the old plate looked fine. I believe it is done at 3000 hours.

Here is a site with some Tomahawk info:
http://www.pipertomahawk.com/
 
Here is the ad for Bob's plane.

If you search posts made by me or look in the Windwood thread from 2009, you will see many other photos of it. I flew it for Bob and Mike for a year (3-6 hrs per month) and had great experiences with it. The engine is SMOOTH, as it's the 6 cyl. continental 0-300, very little oil consumption when I was flying it for that year. Interior is good, plastic is average/ok.

The plane is a great plane, clean and respectable, Paint is good and what you could expect for being tied down outside. Has a new cover from PlaneCover.com that I bought for it as the old was quite past its prime. I took my wife and two 6 year olds flying in it often for lunch runs to KRDG and KLNS.

Instruments are good. ADF works, two VOR heads, one with glideslope. Flip flop radios that were clear. Audio panel. Not a standard 6 pack arrangement, but I didn't have trouble using it for beginning IR training.

Wired with a TANIS engine heater on the cylinders and oil pan, but since we were tied down it wasn't often we could use that. We used a propane surefire toolbox type heater in the winter.

Oh,.. and big flaps! I could drop that plane in tight with those things,.. see the photo of Windwood, it was fun!

I'd buy it now if I had the money, but most of it just went to replacing my slate roof with conventional roofing. :rolleyes:
 

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$25K is a tight budget for a good 4-seater suitable for timebuilding/training first ownership, where I recommend staying away from fabric and taildraggers. Given your size, I think the Cherokee 140 you mentioned would probably fit your needs and budget best -- simple, easy to fly, familiar to all mechs and CFI's, good IFR platform, plenty of room/payload when used as a 2-person airplane. If you go with any of the 100HP-class 2-seat planes (O-200/235 engines), I think you'll have serious problems with both weight and cabin size. Just remember that for your first aircraft purchase/ownership experience, you want to keep it simple, and find someone locally who's owned a plane or three to mentor you through the process.
 
When I see an add for single engine piston aircraft with 2200 hrs on the engine, I automatically add in the cost of a good engine overhaul, plus that hastle of dealing with the logistics.
 
Or you could do like I did buy an airplane and fix it up. I paid $26,000 for a 1959 182. It was supposed to be all there and I was supposed to get the help of a A&P A& I to put it together. Neither of those things happened. I had to put it into a shop and have them help me get it flying and when it was all said and done I had over $42,000 into it.
 
Bob Bement said:
Or you could do like I did buy an airplane and fix it up. I paid $26,000 for a 1959 182. It was supposed to be all there and I was supposed to get the help of a A&P A& I to put it together. Neither of those things happened. I had to put it into a shop and have them help me get it flying and when it was all said and done I had over $42,000 into it.
Click to expand...

Now Bob, don't oversell it!
 
AggieMike88 said:
This popped up on my Alerts for Controller just now

1979 CESSNA 172N SKYHAWK, Piston Single Aircraft, S/N: 17271469, Price $25,000
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Yup. Over 10,000 hours and the engine well past TBO.

The 172N has the O-320-H2AD engine, known to have ongoing cam and lifter troubles. Check the AD history for that engine. It's not pretty.

High-time 172s typically have the following unless Cessna's Service bulletins have been followed closely:

-Cracked forward spar in the stabilizer. Caused by pilots pushing down on the stab to turn the airplane on the ground.

-Cracked aft doorposts at the tiny radius where they join the landing gear box. Difficult to see. Gotta know exactly where to look.

-Cracked forward doorposts at the bottom door hinge. Difficult to see, as above.

There are more, but any of these can get expensive. The stab spar especially is a serious safety issue.

Dan
 
I recommend the older (60s) Cessna 172s. The O-300 engine is widely supported, it performs identically to the later 150 hp Lycoming versions, and the useful load is generally better in the older ones (mines just shy of 900lbs). Although they make marginal four seaters for adults, they make great 2-3 seaters. Easily available at around 25k, 30k for areally nice one. I've had mine for a year, and its been reliable, fun, and trustworthy.

Of course, im a little biased...
 
NotSure said:
I recommend the older (60s) Cessna 172s. The O-300 engine is widely supported, it performs identically to the later 150 hp Lycoming versions, and the useful load is generally better in the older ones (mines just shy of 900lbs). Although they make marginal four seaters for adults, they make great 2-3 seaters. Easily available at around 25k, 30k for areally nice one. I've had mine for a year, and its been reliable, fun, and trustworthy.

Of course, im a little biased...
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Performs identical? The older 172 I flew with the O-300 cruised at about the same speed as a C150.
 
jesse said:
Performs identical? The older 172 I flew with the O-300 cruised at about the same speed as a C150.
Click to expand...

And the O-300, like its other small-Continental brethren, has a weak top end. Valve troubles at or before midtime. Those weak valves are the reason we dumped the C150s in favor of the Lyc-powered 172s.

But I like the sound of the O-300 better than the Lyc, and those old 172s are lighter. And they have little of that horrible plastic that the sun shrinks and cracks: wing and tail tips, fairings, interior stuff. And in Canada they're eligible for the Owner-Maintenance category. Saves a bunch, if the owner has mechanical skills.

Dan
 
jesse said:
Performs identical? The older 172 I flew with the O-300 cruised at about the same speed as a C150.
Click to expand...

Every 172 I've ever flown from the 56 model up through the models built in the 70s cruised exactly the same: 105-110 knots. Conti, Lycoming, whatever. You need the 160 or 180hp models to squeeze any more knots out of that airframe.
 
alaskaflyer said:
Every 172 I've ever flown from the 56 model up through the models built in the 70s cruised exactly the same: 105-110 knots. Conti, Lycoming, whatever. You need the 160 or 180hp models to squeeze any more knots out of that airframe.
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IME the 160 HP 172s are def. a bit faster than the 145 hp six cylinders. They most certainly out-climb the thing.
 
kontiki said:
When I see an add for single engine piston aircraft with 2200 hrs on the engine, I automatically add in the cost of a good engine overhaul, plus that hastle of dealing with the logistics.
Click to expand...


My suspicions came with the 2010 paint job and Monroe LA address. Makes me wonder what the corrosion fairy has been doing to it...
 
Sorry gang, been away for a while.... work tends to get in the way of fun. Thank you all for the posts.

So, I've been looking at some planes and running them through AOPA's Vref, and the prices are usually pretty far off the asking price.

Here are a couple of examples:

I looked at the Tomahawk being advertised on trade-a-plane.com for $15,500... its value on AOPA's Vref is like $7500!

I was also looking at a 1965 Cherokee 140 with 3900 hours and 1800 SMOH, with everything advertised put into the calculator... $13,000! Asking price was $21,700.

Is this calculator so far out of whack that it's not even being used anymore or what's the story with it?
 
Freight Dog said:
Sorry gang, been away for a while.... work tends to get in the way of fun. Thank you all for the posts.

So, I've been looking at some planes and running them through AOPA's Vref, and the prices are usually pretty far off the asking price.

Here are a couple of examples:

I looked at the Tomahawk being advertised on trade-a-plane.com for $15,500... its value on AOPA's Vref is like $7500!

I was also looking at a 1965 Cherokee 140 with 3900 hours and 1800 SMOH, with everything advertised put into the calculator... $13,000! Asking price was $21,700.

Is this calculator so far out of whack that it's not even being used anymore or what's the story with it?
Click to expand...

I got a Cherokee 150 with 1/3 of that time on it with a decent IFR panel in it (KX155 w/GS,KY197,KLN89B IFR Certified) that I would consider selling around that price. The tool is accurate, Sellers can ask what they want for various reasons (Wife wants it gone, looking for a sucker, or just delusional). I wouldn't touch an old timed out PA28 140 for a dime more than 13K or so. You're going to need/want an overhaul soon if your budget is 25K, you're in trouble. Figure it needs an engine already, you may or may not get another 500-1000 hours out of it but, on the market, that engine is done. So figure you geat a deal on an OH for 20K, you got 41K in it. It better be one NICE 140. You can do better.
 
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Freight Dog said:
So, I've been looking at some planes and running them through AOPA's Vref, and the prices are usually pretty far off the asking price.

Here are a couple of examples:

I looked at the Tomahawk being advertised on trade-a-plane.com for $15,500... its value on AOPA's Vref is like $7500!

I was also looking at a 1965 Cherokee 140 with 3900 hours and 1800 SMOH, with everything advertised put into the calculator... $13,000! Asking price was $21,700.

Is this calculator so far out of whack that it's not even being used anymore or what's the story with it?
Click to expand...
Used to be Vref gave high prices based on asking prices. As such, it was a good estimator of replacement cost, like for an agreed value hull insurance policy. Now, in the down market, it seems rather pessimistic -- more like bid than asked. Only way to find out what they'll take is to make an offer you think is reasonable based on all available information. Worst the seller can do is say "no" and not give a counter-offer, and you're no worse off than you started, and maybe more knowledgable about what sellers think is "reasonable."
 
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