Looking to Buy (Again)...Recommendations?

[wrbix]

For '79 Tiger:
- Annual $1513, including new battery

- insurance $976, 350hr PPL, no IR yet, for $80K hull value (MT CS prop, 530W, 430, Sandel 3308, auxillary fuel). Expect some discount here shortly w IR.

 

[danhagan]

Grumman Tiger.

Your mission describes a Grumman Tiger.

@FormerHangie beat me by a second!

I'll 4th that recommendation

Possibly Grumman Tiger (+ meets requirements, - at the low end of speed / high end of price)

Keep looking, should be decent prices. I'm probably putting mine up for sale in the near future as my mission has changed (empty nest) but wife only rides if the flight is local. All of my trips are long XC. With a fuel totalizer, you can get better endurance than what was previously posted. I'm in a mountain area, but maintain 9500 to 11500 on all XC rides usually burning 8.4 to 8.8 GPH. Down low, expect 10 GPH at full throttle. Back seat folds down with plenty of room to sleep if you have to sit out weather (BTDT). The rudder is like a barn door and the plane can easily handle 30G33 direct crosswind (my highest), Ron Levy did a 40G44 before direct X-wind, but said he'd never do it again.

One thing about canopies. If you flip, you may be trapped. Sorry to bring that up, but it has happened.

Part of your emergency flow is opening the canopy in an engine out prior to touchdown. I know several Tiger pilots that keep a piece of PVC on board (small 1 inch) with slots cut in each end to maintain it staying open. I personally don't think the PVC is necessary.

 

[atbroome]

Please put me on your list of POA-ers who you contact if/when you decide to sell

Seems to be very little out there in the well cared for and updated Tiger category.

I'm probably putting mine up for sale in the near future as my mission has changed (empty nest) but wife only rides if the flight is local.

 

[wrbix]

Are you on Grumman Gang message board - well cared for Tigers do come up for sale there pretty regularly.

....and on the subject of Insurance and back seats - I'm currently in negotiation w my carrier to have plane changed from 4-seater to 2-seater, simply by functionally removing back seat backs per POH. I'm told it should decrease liability premium. Let you know.

 

[atbroome]

I am . For the past few months I've been semi-actively looking (aka beg the wife for permission when a good one comes up) all I have seen is the $85k one still listed on Controller and the one in SC that has been well cared for but needs everything but paint soon (interior, engine, avionics)

Edit: I seem to recall one of the Grumman experts (AuCountry or TrueFLight) posting about a few for sale that were unlisted and priced at the top of the market, but the grumman-gang mail archive hasn't been updated since April so its hard to check.

The email interface wouldn't be as frustrating if searching was easier.

Are you on Grumman Gang message board - well cared for Tigers do come up for sale there pretty regularly.

....and on the subject of Insurance and back seats - I'm currently in negotiation w my carrier to have plane changed from 4-seater to 2-seater, simply by functionally removing back seat backs per POH. I'm told it should decrease liability premium. Let you know.

 

[wrbix]

Must be on wrong list or something. 6PC had trouble at first too - not to class you with him..GG posts update at least daily, and mentions of planes for sale are an occasional occurrence - justhave to follow along - I've never had any success w archives there.
Try here:
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
https://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grumman-gang
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
grumman-gang-request@mailman.xmission.com

You can reach the person managing the list at
grumman-gang-owner@mailman.xmission.com

 

[atbroome]

Oh, I'm subscribed to the digest version and get 1-4 emails per day. Problem is the searching.

I only signed up semi-recently and the list archive that is searchable on the web hasn't been updated/indexed since April

I have them going to my old (ahem) yahoo account so I can't gmail search them...even if I had them all. I feel I should be using a hotmail or compuserv account for the list though.

Must be on wrong list or something. 6PC had trouble at first too - not to class you with him..GG posts update at least daily, and mentions of planes for sale are an occasional occurrence - justhave to follow along - I've never had any success w archives there.
Try here:
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
https://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grumman-gang
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
grumman-gang-request@mailman.xmission.com

You can reach the person managing the list at
grumman-gang-owner@mailman.xmission.com

 

[Adam Weiss]

I'll 4th that recommendation



Keep looking, should be decent prices. I'm probably putting mine up for sale in the near future as my mission has changed (empty nest) but wife only rides if the flight is local. All of my trips are long XC. With a fuel totalizer, you can get better endurance than what was previously posted. I'm in a mountain area, but maintain 9500 to 11500 on all XC rides usually burning 8.4 to 8.8 GPH. Down low, expect 10 GPH at full throttle. Back seat folds down with plenty of room to sleep if you have to sit out weather (BTDT). The rudder is like a barn door and the plane can easily handle 30G33 direct crosswind (my highest), Ron Levy did a 40G44 before direct X-wind, but said he'd never do it again.



Part of your emergency flow is opening the canopy in an engine out prior to touchdown. I know several Tiger pilots that keep a piece of PVC on board (small 1 inch) with slots cut in each end to maintain it staying open. I personally don't think the PVC is necessary.

If your mission has changed, I'm curious what you're looking for in a long XC replacement?
Something faster? Less payload?

 

[danhagan]

Please put me on your list of POA-ers who you contact if/when you decide to sell

Seems to be very little out there in the well cared for and updated Tiger category.

Will do, send me a PM just in case as a reminder. Have had mine 8 years and take care of all squawks as they arise. Plane has been to FletchAir twice for annuals and they go through everything. HSI was replaced last winter ($3400) as was the AI ($800). Alternator and belt are fairly recent. Brand new mags (not refurbs) last winter also ($2200). I had basically no maintenance costs other than the $750 annual until this past year, but I want everything operating perfect as I use it long XC frequently. Two months ago the G530 battery was replaced. I swapped a refurb KX-155 Com2 in to take care of a squelch problem as well last year. Plane has a stormscope, G330 transponder, DME and an old ADF I'm considering removing. This is the first year I didn't certify it for IFR flight as the transponder/alt check for IFR is more expensive and I still haven't completed that rating.

....and on the subject of Insurance and back seats - I'm currently in negotiation w my carrier to have plane changed from 4-seater to 2-seater, simply by functionally removing back seat backs per POH. I'm told it should decrease liability premium. Let you know.

I have over 600 hours in the Tiger now, and my insurance to cover 65k hull and all the other junk is $612 through AOPA

If your mission has changed, I'm curious what you're looking for in a long XC replacement?
Something faster? Less payload?

The Tiger is great speed wise, unfortunately I live in west Texas (El Paso) where all terrain is brown for 3 hours any direction My buddy is in an RV-8 which would be nice, possibly an RV-4. I'm solo 95% of my flights unless my son is with me. Have only had 2 passengers on maybe 4 flights in 8 years and only all seats filled on one occasion. I'm based at KDNA and my buddy is at KELP - at his field there is a group of maybe 6-7 pilots that own separate AC and are joint owners in a Luscombe and Pitts. Was trying to get the guys to form a closed club with all the AC involved - the Tiger wouldn't work in that group as there is already a turbo Bonanza (175+ knots) and a couple of other 160+ knot AC involved (these guys are pretty well off - I do OK myself).

 

[asicer]

Part of your emergency flow is opening the canopy in an engine out prior to touchdown. I know several Tiger pilots that keep a piece of PVC on board (small 1 inch) with slots cut in each end to maintain it staying open. I personally don't think the PVC is necessary.

The baggage door has an inside release. You can also use that in a pinch.

Two months ago the G530 battery was replaced. Plane has a stormscope, G330 transponder...

Does the 530 do WAAS? Is the 330 upgradeable to ES? What's your useful load?

 

[danhagan]

Does the 530 do WAAS? Is the 330 upgradeable to ES? What's your useful load?

G530 (non WAAS). I'm not IFR rated yet, but I believe it is $1500 to upgrade. Have to check on the transponder, but will verify ... was told it was a $1300 upgrade last time I was in the avionics shop.

 

[muddy00]

Tiger. Can't beat them

 

[charheep]

I joined the GG mailing list. Kinda passed over canopy planes with the fear of being trapped but that is such a low probability that they warrant another look from me.

 

[danhagan]

I joined the GG mailing list. Kinda passed over canopy planes with the fear of being trapped but that is such a low probability that they warrant another look from me.

Not too hard to open it prior to touchdown in an emergency. You can fly with the canopy partially open (which I do - it has an inflight restriction placarded on how far you can open it) - landing Austin July 4th in 100* weather was no problem, I had great air flow. Besides that, Tiger flyers just look bad arse taxiing in hot weather, open canopy and elbow handing out ... much better than the guy holding the door open with his foot during runup

Was trying to find the picture, but there's a recent wreck where the plane struck hard and the wing root is jamming the only door on the plane.

 

[Rcmutz]

Grumman Tiger.

Yep... 135 Kts true with 900 lb useful, after full fuel of 52 gals/~ 5 hrs till dry tanks, leaves ~ 600 lbs of people and baggage.

How do I know... I own one!

PS- currently not for sale.

 

[Rcmutz]

Thanks @wrbix. And if any other Tiger/M20 owners are willing to share their costs, I'd love to have the data.

$680 per year I insurance. $1M/$100k, $50k hull, IFR, 1100 TT! 400 hrs in make and model.

$800 fixed annual inspection plus any work beyond basic servicing.


PS- 5kts between the Tiger and SOME OF the M20's will not make a difference over your 300 no trip. Btw, I have been in a Tiger that has pulled away from a Mooney. A lot depends on the engine and prop condition.

 

[MountainDude]

Cessna 182

 

[Perezhr]

Between 40 to 70k there are some good choices. My preference is probably to find an older model that is really well equipped with all the avionics I want rather than newer but with old radios. My M20C cost me 850 in insurance and annuals have been under 2K. It is well equipped, full IFR, and flown over 100 hours per year. She does an honest 142 kts flying between 7 and 10k feet burning 8.7 GPH. Useful load is right at 1000 pounds which leaves 660 pound with full fuel. Enough for 4 easy hours and one hour of reserve. The manual gear is dead simple and requires lubing of the grease nipples and a pre-load check during annual. If you find a C that can't do much over 130 it is probably out of rig. I've seen people do crazy thinks with the flaps to correct a wing down tendency instead of putting rig boards on the wings and getting everything reset. The O-360 is 180 HP but an extremely reliable engine. The E model is the same size as a C but with an IO-360 and 20 more horses and typically another 10-15 kts. I would definitely look at them as well as the others mentioned here and get a ride on some of these as well. I'm sure there are folks here with Mooneys, tigers, Cessnas, Pipers, RVs that will let you tag along so you can make the right decision for you.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[danhagan]

Yep... 135 Kts true with 900 lb useful, after full fuel of 52 gals/~ 5 hrs till dry tanks, leaves ~ 600 lbs of people and baggage.How do I know... I own one!
PS- currently not for sale.

You might consider getting a new W&B performed (not being snotty). Replaced alternator and battery a couple of years ago and asked the mechanic to not "just carry numbers forward". My full fuel load was 630 prior to official new W&B and increased to about 660.

$680 per year I insurance. $1M/$100k, $50k hull, IFR, 1100 TT! 400 hrs in make and model.
$800 fixed annual inspection plus any work beyond basic servicing.

I'm at $618 per year, have not completed IFR yet and am at 750 TT ... 600+ are in the Tiger so that might make a difference. Insurance is through AOPA. Not sure if they're 100% identical ... my hull is 65K

 

[Adam Weiss]

Cessna 182

C182 is a great plane.
We have one in the club I'm in.
However, I really don't have a need for the payload capability, and it burns a bit more fuel than I'd like.

 

[Jeff Cutler]

You mentioned possibly Turbo Arrow. Didn't see what your typical x-country mission looked like (distance), or what part of the country. Being a flat-lander myself, the turbo comes in handy to get over WX or at least to keep me in visual view of WX when not flying the iPad or Stormscope. From a maintenance standpoint, complex is more $$ but not terribly. All in cost per hour about $125-145 depending how many hours you fly a year, YMMV. Purchase price will just be your entry fee. Best way to see which plane is best, is to compare hourly cost to operate, IMO. That covers all-in, for the speed/distance/time, no matter how many seats you fill.

 

[C-1 PILOT]

Had a Tiger, never should have sold it. Had a twin Cougar, it was very nice. Bought a new DA20 and sold it after 5 years. Never should have sold that one either. I'm looking at RV's now. I'm not looking for speed and although the Grummans are nice, it's 10 gph of expensive 100LL, no matter now you look at it. The Diamond was better at 5 gph, but that nasty 100LL and no STC's for either plane.

Get past your 130mph and the RV-12 should suit your needs, it'll do an honest 120. It's the fastest SLSA and has the best useful load. I like the new 912iS powered -12. IMHO Rotax engines are the way to go. MOGAS and for those times it's inconvenient fill with 100LL. You just need to change your oil sooner and use TCP when you use 100LL. Just my 2 cents, good luck.

 

[Adam Weiss]

Had a Tiger, never should have sold it. Had a twin Cougar, it was very nice. Bought a new DA20 and sold it after 5 years. Never should have sold that one either. I'm looking at RV's now. I'm not looking for speed and although the Grummans are nice, it's 10 gph of expensive 100LL, no matter now you look at it. The Diamond was better at 5 gph, but that nasty 100LL and no STC's for either plane.

Get past your 130mph and the RV-12 should suit your needs, it'll do an honest 120. It's the fastest SLSA and has the best useful load. I like the new 912iS powered -12. IMHO Rotax engines are the way to go. MOGAS and for those times it's inconvenient fill with 100LL. You just need to change your oil sooner and use TCP when you use 100LL. Just my 2 cents, good luck.

Thanks, C-1 PILOT.
I agree...there are a LOT of really efficient options when you look at Rotax-powered.
You can't beat 5-6 gph.
A while ago, I had considered building a Zenith CH650.
But the 115Kts I get in the 172 is just too slow for the long XC I've been doing.
I really would like a minimum of 130kts (150mph).
The DA-20 C1 looked interesting, but it's only VFR.
Most of my trips are for pleasure, but this summer I've done quite a bit for business too.
IFR will be a must-have.

 

[Adam Weiss]

You mentioned possibly Turbo Arrow. Didn't see what your typical x-country mission looked like (distance), or what part of the country. Being a flat-lander myself, the turbo comes in handy to get over WX or at least to keep me in visual view of WX when not flying the iPad or Stormscope. From a maintenance standpoint, complex is more $$ but not terribly. All in cost per hour about $125-145 depending how many hours you fly a year, YMMV. Purchase price will just be your entry fee. Best way to see which plane is best, is to compare hourly cost to operate, IMO. That covers all-in, for the speed/distance/time, no matter how many seats you fill.

Thanks Jeff.
What performance do you plan for in your Turbo Arrow III?
By way of comparison, our club charges $115 for a C172 and $145 for C182, and I imagine the Arrow III would outperform the C182.
Also, how much does the Turbo add in terms of maintenance?

 

[Jeff Cutler]

I fly conservatively at 65% power. 140kts 6-10,000 ft, 145kts 10-13,000 ft, and about 150kts in the mid-teens - all depending on OAT. Think the 182 is slightly ahead for useful load full of fuel, and pretty comp for speed below the teens. All taperd wing Arrows will hold 72 gal. and mine burns right at 12gph at 100deg rich peak. I replaced the turbo (just as cautionary) at 1000 hours with an overhauled unit for about $2,000. I've heard most T-Arrow owners will run the turbo up to engine TBO. I do have the Merlyn upper deck controller (vurtally no maint) & pressurized mags, and installed the Piper cooling mod when I purchased the plane years ago at the time we put the factory re-man in. Cooling mod is standard for '79 mods and up. Piper airframe, no real gotchas so far as that goes. Gear system is not that complicated, but you will pay more attention at annual.

 

[SoCal RV Flyer]

Thanks, C-1 PILOT.
I agree...there are a LOT of really efficient options when you look at Rotax-powered.
You can't beat 5-6 gph.

You can easily get fuel consumption in that range with an RV, throttled back...and still doing 140 mph!
Of course, once you get used to the speed, you'll want to go 160-180 mph and burn more fuel. It's quite addictive.

 

[asicer]

Also, how much does the Turbo add in terms of maintenance?

Keep in mind the TSIO-360 in the T-Arrow is a 6cyl. That almost automatically makes it more expensive to maintain than a Lycosaurus O-360 (4cyl).