Looking for some guidance...

[overdrive148]

I am 21 years old and hold a private pilot's license that I earned when I was 18 (first solo at 17). I am a current student at Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University pursuing a BS in Professional Aeronautics, now Aeronautics since they renamed it. I did my first solo at 22 hours (changed instructors and aircraft halfway through training) and got my license at 69. I have 95 hours total and haven't flown for quite some time due to the cost of flying and college. My father has helped me along the way with financing both, but I chose to stick to college to do well and help keep costs down.

I have wanted to be a pilot for quite some time, although the exact way I've wanted to fly has changed over time. I tried AFROTC for a while and didn't quite think it suited me. I got a job through my father working under a subcontractor for the Navy making trucks drive themselves and made some pretty good money for the few months it lasted before things fell apart (not due to my actions) and I was kind of strung on with "two more weeks" repeatedly for 4-5 months. Anyway, I decided that I wanted to try taking things on my own and decided to move out 6 months ago. I live in Oklahoma now, working a job at Braum's (think restaurant/fast food/grocery) being near friends and learning to live since most of everything tended to be taken care of already at home financially (I helped everywhere I could when possible).

Now after having some taste of what it's like to work under these circumstances (and having my desire to achieve more than it bolstered -even- more than before

), I'm wondering what to do next. The FAFSA for financing laughs at me for aid (family situation) and dad suddenly got cold feet after I left home after saying he'd pay as long as I did well. I've gotten Deans list every possible time so far, 3.8+ GPA overall. And he is still trying to cut me off.

I earned my associate's in Prof. Aero (graduation on the 19th of this month!) and am less than a year from my BS (if I can keep going full time that is, ERAU is expensive) and I'm not sure that I can afford half time let alone full time if my dad cuts me off. I have looked into different possible careers other than the Air Force and I am heavily considering flying small corporate jets.

I suppose I'm asking for some guidance from some of the less 'green' people (and pilots). What can I do with my degree, and where (or who) should I start talking to? Do you think I should take my associate's and try to get a flying job or hours or get stable, or should I stick it in for my bachelor's? Any help would be extremely appreciated, I'm doing research but personalized responses would be fantastic. Thanks in advance!

//edit
PPL at 18, not 17

 

[Marauder]

Ah, you bring back memories. My first advice is to find a way to stay in school. You will be competing with all of those Bachelor degrees people for those corporate jet jobs. Not to mention ex-military, ex-commercial pilots who got laid off and people who have a lot more aviation experience than you currently do.

I will let those who actually fly for a living tell you their challenges of finding work in the Field. I gave up on the dream and entered corporate America which has afforded me the opportunity to fly personally.

 

[MAKG1]

I thought the FAFSA these days didn't require reporting family income at your age. That makes a huge difference.

Failing that, if ERAU won't help out with financial aid, go somewhere cheaper. But do finish your degree somewhere. I find it hard to believe that SJSU (a public university with an aviation major) is anywhere near as expensive as ERAU. What about UND?

But even one year of loans, distasteful as they might be, is not out of the question for a bachelor's degree.

I would suggest having a nonflying skillset as well, as medical problems really suck otherwise. There are many tangents to aviation available, ranging from hospitality management to meteorology and aerospace engineering.

 

[Jeanie]

I don't know your relationship with your dad. Consider going to see him, maybe even make an appointment to talk with him regarding your college etc. talk to him the way you just wrote to us. Let him know that you want to do well and are making every effort to complete a degree and be a successful career man. Ask him what has changed for him that he would be less inclined to continue to help you out. LISTEN without interrupting.... Offer to make it right even if what he says seems bogus or selfish or just stubborn or stupid or .... You get my point right? It could be that he just figures that you are now 21 and therefore expects you to make it or break like back in the day... Who knows? But you won't know till you ask.

You might even offer to come up with a business plan and a way to repay a loan from him.

 

[overdrive148]

@Marauder

I agree about completing my degree. I'm just worried about being able to pay for it.

@MAKG

I moved out late last year, I know at least then I had to give up tax information for me and my parents and socials etc. I heard that at like 24 you can claim fully independent, but I'm living on my own now (not as well as I'd hoped but I'm honestly trying to fix that) and I'm trying to figure out if I can claim it now. If I could I think it'd help tremendously since I can demonstrate financial need.

The Professional Aeronautics degree is half business and aviation for the most part, taking Structural Factors in Aviation Safety and Organizational Behavior this quarter (two is full time). I will have a double minor in Safety and Business (lots of management classes to boot) at the very least upon graduation. Not that business is something I yearn to do, but I figure it'd make a pretty good fallback.

I don't know if ERAU has classes you can get from other places that'd transfer easily. I took all of the core classes like Speech at a community college and transferred those over when I started to keep our costs down. I'd have to find out what classes I needed and see if they were able to be transferred.

A year of loans wouldn't be too bad I think (although considering about 900 bucks a class plus books for each class).

@Jeanie

He used to be in the Royal Air Force flying English Electric Lightning's. I think he has very high expectations of me and was incredibly upset when I decided to drop from the AFROTC program, called me stupid and said I was ruining my life. I thought it was an adult decision personally. I flew out there two months ago to see if visiting would fix things and make them feel better about me being here. The first thing my dad said when I saw him was "How's poverty?". I've tried talking to him the same way as I do here, through e-mail and in person, but it ended up turning sour and into arguments.

His argument is that I'm 'wasting my life' working at a job instead of a career. Apparently I'm a "failure" and a "disgrace" and a "waste of money" for moving out and wanting to learn to live on my own. Apparently ERAU is a 'night school' equivalent to putting money into a vending machine and getting a degree, and requires little to no effort. Everyone is going to have the job I want, and it's because they are better than me (good for them, I wish I knew the job I wanted for life). I get a 98% A in a class, he asks why it isn't 100%. I understand that he wants me to succeed, but telling me I'm going to fail constantly and then removing support from me isn't helping at all.

At first, he said I had to get a career in aviation here and then he'd pay for my classes. Then it turned into having to move back home, then he'd pay for it. And now he's just going to stop paying it seems. Believe me, I don't think I'm entitled to his hard earned money at all. I just expected that he'd keep a promise that I asked about before I even moved here, and told him that it was the key factor as to whether I was going or not.

At every chance, he tells me that he's 'given up' on me and that I'm a failure for having a job. Sure, I'll just walk down to the airport and suddenly I'll have a flying career. Wrong! I find it interesting how he suddenly believes that I'm making a career out of working in fast food. When he was young, he built a gas station and worked in it for a few years. I asked him about it compared to my current situation, he told me that his past doesn't matter. I asked him if mine would? How many college students have to work at menial jobs like this one to get by? Certainly all of the 'failing' ones of course.

I don't know, I've been trying to approach it carefully without bias and respect for him since he has been around the block and knows what it's like and it's difficult to sympathize with his actions or beliefs.

I had my first accident in the car a few years back, and I barely ended up tapping the side of the house (enough to pop out one clip on the bumper, and trade a palm sized spot of paint). His response? Suddenly it's because I'm playing 'too many video games' and that I need to 'get my head out my ass'. I hit a tire on Halloween on the way to class (30 or so min drive from here), I couldn't avoid it and I straddled it between the wheels. Called him, it's not "glad you're okay", it's instant criticism. If you lived closer to your college instead of with your "FRIENDS", it wouldn't have happened. I lived farther from class back home and I never once hit anything in 3 years. Trying not to rant here, just to paint a picture of my situation.

Long story short, don't know what to do. I thought that visiting them would fix things and make me feel better about everything in general, but really, I think it made me want to stay on my own even more. I want to learn to live on my own because when he's gone (which I know will happen some day) I won't have anything to fall back on. And how else do you learn to live on your own except go try it? Maybe I'm wrong, I'd love some feedback that doesn't constantly feel like

Thanks in advance guys, the responses are incredibly appreciated.

 

[tonycondon]

get a loan to pay for the last year.

 

[MAKG1]

If you're only paying $1800 per semester in tuition, I take back what I said about SJSU. It's not cheaper. I thought ERAU was a lot more expensive than that.

When finishing a degree, like learning to fly, focus is key. It's best to find relevant work, especially a paid internship. But you do have to eat. Sometimes, you can make unrelated work relevant. If you're a management major, manage. But I don't see much relevant to aviation in flipping burgers outside the management realm.

 

[Jeanie]

get a loan to pay for the last year.

Yeah, that. And, I can tell you all kinds of ways to dress up ramen noodles

I'm sorry your dad is such a hard a** but well, dads can be ... Sounds to me like you're doing fine living on your own, working and making good grades.

 

[Captain]

Re-evaluate you life goals and interject a smidge of reality.

Where do you want to be in 5 years? Answer that honestly and do what it takes to get there.

 

[poadeleted20]

The Financial Aid office at ERAU should be able to provide a lot of options and assistance taking advantage of them regardless of your family's financial situation. Have you talked with them yet?

In any event, it sounds like you know what you want, so keep plugging -- I'm sure you'll find a solution.

 

[acluffpoa]

The fact that you have taken ownership of your life and are trying to do your part tells me a lot about you. I would love for my son to be responsible like you are. For some reason your dad doesn't feel like you value his advice. You are an adult and are acting like one but try to take one small thing that he suggests and do it. That may help him feel like you are listening to him (sounds like you have and are already but just isn't seeing it because of pride) and could sow the seeds to repair the relationship. You, unlike many young people today seem to understand that you must make your way in life instead of feeling entitled to everything. Keep your chin up and see if you can find one small thing to do that will help dad feel you value his advice. We know you do so it won't be a stretch. Best of luck!

 

[overdrive148]

@MAKG it's 1800 per quarter, not semester two classes a quarter (4 per semester) is full time for Worldwide.

I just found this job to pay for rent and food while I got set up. Unfortunately, my searching hasn't been fruitful. USAjobs hasn't had anything listed for aviation related internships for a while, stopped by the FBO at the airport here multiple times (a smaller airport, but still) and asked for any employment opportunities and came up dry twice. Dad keeps telling me Boeing and Lockheed Martin will "pay for my licenses" although I very, very highly doubt they'll just hand out ratings to employees for giggles.

I followed leads of a friend of mine who worked in Alaska for the National Park Service who said she could get me in if there was a spot open and that it might turn into a flying job if they needed pilots. Came up dry the last few times I checked.

The Braum's job is just there to hold until I find something better and more relevant (kind of what I made this thread to ask about ). I dunno where to go or what to apply for. I walk for the Associate's Friday, was hoping I could take my certificate and knock on some doors. Just don't know where to go or where'd be best. The closest major airport is Oklahoma City, and Tinker AFB is on this side of it as well. I've tried showing I can manage with my educational experience at Braum's, but it's a fast food place, no one seems to give a toss about their job in the first place, so it's kind of fruitless. Right now I'm trying to find more income, more hours, and a more relevant job to the industry (isn't everyone?).

@Jeanie/Tony

He's just him. That's the only way I can explain it. I can see where he's coming from but the way he acts and says things is irrational to me and I can't understand why. I'm breaking mostly even right now, and I've only gotten 3 B's overall in my college career so far. Deans list again this semester too. The loan isn't a bad idea, I just don't know much about getting them or paying them off. (I just need to find somewhere that pays more or gives me advancement for my effort).

@Captain

I want to be current again, at the very least. I got my license in 2008 when I was 18 and that's about the last time I flew (flew the family around the pattern, took dad on a short cross country to TNP) (//edit Forgot that I did do some IFR training and started on the way to that rating. Didn't quite make it though) After looking through the different types of flying jobs, I honestly like the idea of a corporate pilot. It's very personal and professional. I'm open to other flying to get there, since it's an adventure in itself after all. I'm just a fish out of water trying to figure out which way is up, then trying to swim that way

@Cap'n

I tried talking to them but I'm not at the main campus, so everything is through e-mail. Sometimes I'll get a response, other times it's a lot more difficult. The last time they just told me to do the FAFSA and look at the worldwide scholarship list. Which consists of very few (at least the last go-round) scholarships, half that I can't apply for (for a certain GPA section lower than mine, women aviators, etc). I appreciate the confidence, it's certainly something I could use right now I'm definitely not going to stop plugging!

//edit
@Alan
You have no idea how great it feels to hear that

When compared to other people my age by my dad, they're all so far ahead of me it isn't even funny. Already flying aircraft around, done with their college, all of them have my dream job. I don't even know what my dream job is yet (Do I have to? I don't think so). He doesn't like when I mention the kids who dropped out of high school, who have 2-3 kids by now, and who are drug addicts or alcoholics. We mostly 'talk' through e-mail right now, when discussing random links back and forth, most aviation related. Most of the time he'll just link me to the Boeing or USAjobs internship site, and I tried listening and told him I'd look. Came back with no results for aviation in general, let alone anything near where I live now. Of course that turned into "why aren't you looking at x, or y, or anything else?". I dunno what to do. I don't try to be selfish or arrogant, I know he's been around the block, he's worth listening to and I do respect him. It's just frustrating when after years of telling me that I was going to fail and be stuck asking "do you want fries with that", and I am kind of doing that, that he gets upset. What does he expect? That kind of motivation only goes so far, after that it's just hurting and not helping at all.

He is building/rebuilding a Bronco from scratch with his money. Do I feel upset that he wants to spend on that? Not in the least! It's his money, he earned it, and it's certainly not mine to take. I just get upset because he promised me that while I was doing well in school (as well as right before I moved out) that he'd pay for it. I picked up the slack on books, and fuel back and forth to class (he bought the car for my sister and I back in high school).

@all

I appreciate the honest advice so far (and to come!), it's extremely helpful and reassuring

 

[poadeleted20]

@Cap'n

I tried talking to them but I'm not at the main campus, so everything is through e-mail. Sometimes I'll get a response, other times it's a lot more difficult. The last time they just told me to do the FAFSA and look at the worldwide scholarship list.

Financial Aid offices are suppose to be a lot more help than that. Forget email -- call them and talk to a live, human financial aid counselor.

 

[rottydaddy]

Yup, nothing drives home "you're an adult now" better than having to come up with money on your won to pursue your goals. It's pretty sobering.
I appreciate your situation, but it could be worse: my old man made me pay rent to live under his roof my last three years of high school (divorce/mother died/moved back in with father). He also initially refused to do any of the financial aid paperwork I needed after getting myself into a Top Ten school through sheer effort... didn't want "them" to think he was poor, or something like that. Ah, my dear old Dad... he was something else. I forgive him now that I've learned more about his own formative years (and some other things he never told me about), and I can't blame anyone but myself for my failures... but, Jeez. He actually once told my older brother that he never wanted to see his boys exceed him at anything.
Maybe it was all a (weird and somewhat sadistic) test of our mettle... who knows? Keep that possibility in mind when you feel bitter that all of a sudden your father seems unsupportive. Whatever his motivation is, I sure hope he'd be proud if you told him "it's cool, I can do this on my own". And if, like my father, he'd be angry about that... well, spite can be a powerful motivator.

I never finished college, and I'm still not always 100% sure I have a handle on being a grown-up... but I did eventually at least get my PPASEL, during a time when I was so poor it makes me cringe to remember it. It was brutal, but I simply refused to give up. I found money and time in places and ways that I didn't think possible. But I didn't borrow so much as a penny, except maybe hitting a co-worker up for $20 "until payday" for gas and Ramen noodles.

My goal was different from yours, and I'm hardly a role model for success, but I offer my tale just as a reminder that having a leg up is better than having to start flat-footed. Whatever path you choose, and wherever all the twists and turns take you, you will travel better if you always believe you can squeeze just a little more out of yourself.

 

[tonycondon]

yea the financial aid office will be able to help if you actually go down there and ask questions. Personally, i just called my hometown banker and got an unsecured loan for enough to pay my last years tuition. The term was long enough that the payment was something i could stomach even on my CFI salary, which I figured was a good thing in case I didn't get a job right after college. Turned out that when I did get hired I got a nice moving payment which gave me enough money to buy gas for the drive and pay off my loan.

 

[airheadpenguin]

While I do get along with my parents, there was a time that that was strained. The nice part about being an adult is that you can involve people in your life to the extent you feel appropriate at the time.

 

[SMR05]

Coming from a very similiar situation, this is my advice.

1. Ask to move back in with your father for free rent and groceries in exchange for a few chores around the house.
2. Have a decent car? Sell it, get a beater of craigslist. Use the additional money towards school or flying.
3. Take a semester off school. Get two jobs and sack away as much money as possible. Avoid loans at all cost.

I took a year off school, worked 70+ hours a week, and lived as poorly as possible. Did it suck? Yes. Would i do it again? Yes. I had enough to pay cash for my college and flight ratings. It all boils down to how bad you want it and what your willing to do to get it. My relationship with my parents is great now, and they respect me as an adult more than ever before. Plus, you learn a lot through the experience.

 

[greghughes]

The first thing that comes to mind is simple: You strike me as someone who has his head on straight, is smart and articulate, knows what's right even if he doesn't know where he'll end up, and is motivated and driven to be a self-made man while keeping reality in mind. You sound like a hard worker, too. Good for you.

This is something you can accomplish. I have watched my friend work through a similar situation, although with even tougher financial circumstances. ERU has a small location here in Portland (at PDX). There are ways to do this. You're young and probably don't have a lot of "stuff" yet, which (trust me) is huge in terms of opening up options. You can move where you *need* to be, you can obviously find work, even if its not in your chosen field initially, in order to pay the bills.

Depending on what you want and need in life, you can go the route SMR05 outlined, which is fine. Or you can do the slightly different version, where you do #2 and #3 but not #1. I can tell you from my own life experience, the results of hard work and doing it on your own feel great. Sure, there's some pain and sacrificing to get there, but in the end - worth it.

Find an internship that pays a little, maybe in a technology field or something similar. Heck around here we have so many aviation related businesses it's shocking. Find the place. Pound the pavement. Make it happen.

 

[overdrive148]

@Cap'n Ron

Dug around their ERNIE website and after hitting multiple HTML dead-ends, found a number. Going to call them sometime this week if I can.

@beaky

I agree that it could be a hell of a lot worse, and having a leg up at the very least is a huge advantage, but I feel like I just barely rotated and got off the ground and now I'm not sure how to fly the plane

It could be. I'm just confused at the conflicting signals that I seem to be getting from him. He told me that ERAU is nothing but night school and that it's like getting a degree from a vending machine, but before my graduation, he told me (via text after I took a picture) that he was proud of me. I'd love some consistency so I could at least try to please him or do well or do what he thinks is best but it's all over the place and it altogether feels upsetting. I don't know. I don't think he's doing completely on purpose, I still respect and love him dearly, just I wish he'd not cut the wind in my sails both financially and motivationally.

@Tony

Sounds pretty good. Dad and I were talking a while back about if I needed a loan that he'd cover it with a much lower interest rate, but that was well before I moved here. I don't know much about loans/etc to begin with unfortunately though. I think the financial aid office might explain at least the "Unsubsidized loan" that I 'qualified' for last year in the very least. My dad has a way with words and dealing with people, something that I might not have the...intimidation? if that's the right word, to follow suit.

@airheadpenguin

The freedom is incredibly nice, almost overwhelming from before, and taking the right choices is kind of hard when you want to try a lot of things just to do it. I guess that's how most people feel when they move out? I'm a lot more reserved though I think.

@SMR

Early on after I moved out here to OK, he told me that he'd only pay for classes if I moved back home, not even back in the house, just in the state or nearby. This kind of confused me, the difference between me living on my own here and near home wasn't much, I'd probably have the same type of job there. Maybe he just wanted to see me or something? But then again I'm doubly confused because the first thing he told me when I visited was "How's poverty". And then said "given up on me" so much. I don't know. I'd prefer not to move back in, although I can't exactly rationally explain why. I really want to make it on my own because after being told that I fail and I can't for so long, I feel like...I need to prove it to myself, that I can (in fact, contrary to popular belief) handle myself out here in the 'real world' full of bad things.

The whole being poor situation sounds like a universal constant, and I didn't expect any less The car I have is from 2006 or so, and it's in fairly good condition. Dad transferred it into my name for some reason, and I'm paying insurance on it as well now. Wouldn't know the first thing about buying a car either unfortunately. Dad is a great mechanic and knows what to look for, and if I approached him about selling the car he'd probably be even more upset with me. The semester off school is tempting, and avoiding loans is something I'd like to do. Finding another job is my primary goal right now, I just don't know where to start in terms of something aviation related to help get some networking going.

@Greg PDX

I appreciate the support!

My current furniture consists of a walmart card table I got from my friends here in OK and an airbed my parents gave me. Mobility is probably a strong thing here I'm just not quite sure what to do with it. Also kind of nervous, set up some new friends, reunited with a few very important ones to me here, and I feel kind of...I dunno, comfortable? Then again, if you're going to be a pilot, you have to go with the winds so if I can find a good opportunity, I'm all for considering it seriously.

I'd rather not go home for sure, for the reasons above...but if it gets me at the best rate of climb...I'd still like to do it on my own though...

Been looking for internships through USAjobs but so far, not much that I can fit though.


----------------
Which brings me to these!

I graduated with my Associate's in Professional Aeronautics on Friday! I was the only person there walking with an AS. Everyone else was with a Bachelor's and Master's (and they were all at least 5-10 years older than me). (I'm still headed straight for my BS in Prof Aero at least, less than a year if I can afford to keep full time!)

I'm curious now though, where should I go with it, and who should I apply to? Any continued help is much appreciated of course!

 

[greghughes]

Hey -- Congrats, that's awesome!! Good for you!

When it comes to internships and jobs, you won't find nearly as much online as you will if you put your feet on the ground and hit the streets. USAJobs cannot be your only source. Get uncomfortable. Push your limits. Broaden your scope of possible jobs and places. Look at any and all local businesses that are even remotely aviation related.

By way of example, people here in the Portland area could knock on doors and push for jobs at a variety of aviation related businesses; here are just a few of them:

Vans Aircraft (creators and makers of the RV aircraft line)
Lightspeed Aviation (headsets - really nice ones)
Coradine Aviation (LogTen Pro software)
Oregon Aero (seats and interiors)
Pacific Coast Avionics
Garmin Aviation (south of Portland - in Salem)
Various FBOs, maintenance shops and other airport businesses
Several other companies creating software

And if you go an hour or so in any direction, the possibilities open up even more to advanced avionics, more airplane manufacturers, aviation museums, etc.

If you do some research, you'll probably be shocked at how many aviation related businesses are out there. Talk to them all. Literally.

And congrats again on the AS - that's terrific, it's got to feel good.

 

[denverpilot]

Some difficult advice from here...

I had similar experiences during my college years. Dad made promises he didn't keep.

20 years later I learned he simply couldn't. He was overextended in his middle aged years. Badly.

That was the era of 12% mortgages, and until you've had a mortgage, that comment won't make much sense. Until you've worried about how you'll pay for your own retirement, a large investment account with lots of money in it, accumulated over a lifetime, won't look so big.

Something important to keep in mind:

Older folk make money mistakes and are broke too, sometimes. Doesn't matter if it looks like they have nicer stuff or whatever, that stuff requires maintenance and may be being paid off on loans that would make your eyeballs pop if you saw them.

Even that truck he's rebuilding... Looks like more than you have, but he is probably buying parts one thing at a time and deciding if the fun is worth taking money out of the retirement fund or not putting money into it (you didn't say if he was retired or almost retired yet, but the idea is the same...)

I see little signs your dad may be trying, but frustrated by the price tag. ROTC was a better deal fiscally for both of you, but if it's not your dream, better to bail out than force yourself to live it.

Aviation is hideously expensive. ERAU is probably the most expensive place to get an Aviation degree on the planet.

And he may also be letting you sink or swim a bit. Mine did. Dads can be tough that way. They know you'll see worse than being broke a few times in a lifetime. Far worse.

My dad and I had a very rocky relationship back then, too. It happens to lots of males. Many females too.

20 or so years on down the line, we had more than patched all that up -- and were good friends with an adult to adult relationship. I dropped out of aviation college and made a career for myself the hard way in computers. He respected that, but it took years.

I think around the time we bought our first house/condo, he really came around. Yeah, that long.

Seems like forever in the future at your age, feels like yesterday at mine. And that was 1994 I think. Second house was August of 2001 and my industry tanked after September 11th of that year, and I was laid off in November and didn't find a job in my industry until a year later. We never missed a mortgage payment, and I never took a dime of unemployment. Did it all with a wonderful woman who's been the best wife ever, and some of our savings. Some totally unreasonable debt too but much of that was earlier on and we were well on the path to paying that off and learning that life lesson before the layoff.

(I later realized that was a dumb fiscal move, but at least I can put my money where my mouth is when it comes to political discussions about social programs and entitlements today...)

Dad passed away suddenly at age 61 in February. I now miss him quite a bit.

He'd had much better days, than when he was broke in his late 30's and early 40's (when he couldn't afford what was ultimately MY flying habit, but was too proud or ashamed to say so), and his career, as well as his real-estate and other investments in his late 40's and 50's did pretty well.

Some of which was his determination to never be broke again, some of which was luck. Not all dads get the luck part and not all get as determined. Your dad sounds surely sounds like the determined type. You too, really.

You'll see how much he rubbed off on you as you age. It's interesting when you recognize it later on.

I ended up finding myself on the receiving end of all of his fiscal assets as his only heir. I'd gladly hand them all back for a little more time with him. He kinda ended up paying for college after all, in a sad and strange way. He didn't die rich, but he didn't owe anyone a penny. He couldn't have left a better legacy.

So, my advice goes like this...

Talk with him and try to listen even if it makes no sense. His insistence that you "ruined your life" dropping out of ROTC is an indication to me that he wants to be supportive of your aviation habit, but can't really afford it.

So the attitude change to "welcome to poverty" makes some sense in that possible light. It's only a guess from here.

Meanwhile, as a new friend told me a few days ago, "Children really shouldn't ever try to figure out all the things going on in their parent's heads. They've got their secrets they'll never share, and trying to figure them out will just drive you crazy." That was in relation to nagging questions that he "prepped" some of his assets to match things I said I would someday like to do. Long story, but it all seems like he planned it. I will never really know.

So... set your goals and live your life on your terms. You'll NEVER regret that. Dad will take care of himself. Either he will come around or he won't, but even after he's gone you'll never *really* know everything he thought of or about you. You know he loves you, and that's about it. Many don't even know that about their dads.

Share with him your progress and ups and downs, and include him in your plan from time to time. You never know when he might find it easier to help you out. Not will you always know what's holding him back.

But ultimately your flying habit is your life addiction, your dream, and your responsibility. He has his. You have yours. Adults don't expect other adults to pay for their dreams. (Insert joke about Democrats here... Ha. Kidding. Well, kinda. Ok, not really.)

Given a choice... Having my dad hold his promises about paying for school without the added strings he tried to attach back then, when he was scrambling just to pay for his own life, or being good friends with him on our own terms some 20 years later, when he passed away -- I'll take the latter again anytime.

Sounds cheesy but, go forth... And live your life as best you can. Your dad can participate or not, but it's your life. Welcome to adulthood.

You sound a little ... maybe... like you don't push hard enough, and are maybe depending too much on his advice and ideas. Maybe he sees that too, and is trying to find the right button to push to tick you off so you'll self-motivate.

Ever think of that? Heh. Mine did it to me. It worked. I actually did get a chance to thank him for it a few years ago. Again, not all kids do and not all recognize it for what it is. You very likely will look back someday with a mix of awe and thankfulness that he turned into a hard-ass at the right times.

Refer back to the "don't try to figure out your parents" advice, however. You may... never... really know. Someday, like me, your dad will be gone and you won't have any choice but to let the questions lie, never to be answered.

I know I have unanswered questions I'd love to ask my dad. Either I never will, or depending on one's religious bent, I'll have an opportunity to ask them all eventually. We'll see.

Since it's impossible to know, for now I will muddle along without his advice for another few decades... What other choice is there?

The most important thing to know: You CAN do anything you want in life, but it will always require something be sacrificed.

As someone already joked in this thread, but wasn't really kidding I suspect... "How do you like your Ramen noodles cooked?"

Been there done that. Had three jobs and school at the same time, and an airplane rental bill and CFI to pay every other week. Sleep was a luxury I couldn't afford. I survived. You will too.

Funny, the no sleep thing never really ended. Heh. Just different reasons now. I hear horror stories about sleep and having children. I avoided that one.

My favorite comedian, Ron White, covers it pretty well. "Life is hard. Get a helmet." The more life you live, the funnier that line gets.

It will be whatever you make of it. Enjoy the ride. You can't live the life your dad envisions for you and be true to yourself at the same time. He wants the best for you, or you wouldn't be confused by his behavior.

Sounds like he's been supportive so far, and the change may just be a new type of support now that he realizes your going it a different way.

Life on your own terms is more fun and more exhausting than you'll know for 20 years. Go live it. Leave the regrets on the floor and have fun as often as possible. You won't regret it. You and your dad will still be dad and son no matter what you do. He will be there for you until he can't be anymore.

 

[denverpilot]

P.S. Congrats on both the PPL and the AS. Those are significant accomplishments.

You've beaten the odds by a mile already and it doesn't look to me like that won't continue. You do know how few humans on the planet can say they both fly airplanes and have a college degree, right?

You've got me beat on the college degree thing. Now let's see what you can do with it!

 

[overdrive148]

Good news! So it turns out that ERAU decided to give me a "scholarship" for next term that takes off 250 bucks for each class I take for having an outstanding GPA! I think it's more because I just graduated and they want me to continue my education (not like I'm not already), but I won't say no to free money

@GregPDX

Going to try to hit the streets pretty soon, your "get uncomfortable" quote has me all motivated (something I usually try not to do). I'm not sure what I'll find here in Shawnee, the airport terminal itself had an Enterprise rental thing and an FBO right next to each other, but no cars and no aircraft or pilots in the terminal except for me. There was an airshow the day I arrived here in October 2012 and they had an A-26 in really nice condition, I think it is around here somewhere. Maybe a museum, you're right I just hope that I can get hired by a company aviation related without actually knowing much about their business (not an electrical engineer, avionics? etc). And yes, the AS feels terrific, but I'm not stopping of my own will until I hit the BS for sure. Not sure about a Master's yet.

@DenverPilot

I think this is a post I needed to read. I was already worried about things (I am a chronic worrier, always worrying about things that I probably shouldn't, or people, or actions), and truth be told, I have thought about the points you make in your post. I don't know, myself.

Whenever I'd ask about the family's financial status (worried about college costs sinking the family), he'd tell me that they were "sufficient". I'm not sure if he was saying that because they were fine and that it was none of my business, or if he was saying that to stop me from worrying about it, but I think it was the former. Not going into too many details, but he's building the Bronco by a lot of parts at once, I've seen his taxes (for the FAFSA filing), and other things. I'm pretty sure he's fairly set financially, but there are indeed things that I don't know and he'd probably never tell me. For better or for worse.

And you're right, he has changed in the last few years kind of suddenly. We've been through a lot as a family, divorces, biological mom stuff, and he pulled me and my sister from the fire more times than I can count (or remember since I was less than 10 for the most of it). And suddenly he's calling me a failure and refusing to keep to promises? It's what hurts the most looking back on stuff we used to do together and how proud of me he was and suddenly it's backwards.

When I graduated from high school, he told me that I could go to ERAU's main campus if I really wanted to. At that time I picked up on tones of him being...what's the word, too nice? Too giving. That's better. The only thing more expensive than ERAU at a worldwide campus is ERAU at a main campus plus dorm stuff plus food plus everything. And he was building a house for us to live in (and he had been fighting the County for ages and it wasn't going to be done in time for us all to live there by the end of High School like he wanted). I saw my sister flat out tell him that it wasn't her house and she wasn't going to live in it (even though it is an incredibly nice house) and proceed to move into the next town over and start down a pretty nasty path overall. I didn't want him to be living in a big house, failing at his dream to set up a nice place for us compared to what we had before, so I told him I didn't want to go there. That I'd stay and go Worldwide and help them finish the place (also to save money so they could finish it, and I knew that me going would stop the place from being finished overall for a while). I got told, a year or two later, that I never really wanted to go to college (by him) because I don't want to be social, I want to be on the computer every day,and that college work is too hard and I want to be a "lazy, fat ass" every day. And every time I bring up AFROTC and quitting it because I thought it was best, he turns around and tells me that I wasted my chance and that I'm absolutely, unequivocally stupid for doing that. He was in the RAF and flew English Electric Lightnings in his day, I think that part of that might be him wanting me to continue his legacy or do what he used to do.

Kind of an unfortunate thing that happened with your career. I'm sorry for your loss of your father.

I think that I can't ever understand what goes on inside his head.

I've definitely decided to set my goals and shoot for them. And I do indeed know he loves me, and it is a great thing. I just wish I wasn't taken for granted and compared to all of the "better kids" out there who are flying already. On one hand, I recognize that it's a kind of an attempt at motivating me to be better, but if it continually comes from my dad even when I achieve, it doesn't do jack for me and it hurts way more than helps. I've tried telling him, but no changes have happened.

I'm definitely worried about being too upset or too independent and not making time for him and pleasing him and visiting him while I still can, but every time I do I end up getting burned or hurt or upset or told the same stupid things that I 'fail'. It's hard to want a relationship if nothing you do is ever right. I know that I'll miss him to pieces when he's gone and the mere thought of that is bringing me to tears. The frustration of the entire situation isn't helping. I'd feel so much more motivated if I had the one person in my life who I'm always seemingly seeking approval from and I'd feel more accomplished to boot. After all this I'm questioning if it was right to move out, or life in general. But I don't know, the only thing to do is to do something and see if it works.

I try to push hard, but I think I find that I lack direction. It's hard for me to pick a direction and go, y'know? To do things without being told or lead in that direction. And I know that he wants me to be better about that, but I think it's in my personality, and trying to/expecting someone to change someone too abruptly and getting upset when they don't quite do it is kind of unfair. Reward the effort if someone falls short (like the IFR test I talked about earlier), make them want to do better and try harder next time, instead of constantly smashing them down. I know that parenting isn't something anyone's born with, it's their first time for everything, and I don't blame him, but it's frustrating.

I'll go buy a helmet right away. And I don't have a problem living poor if I am on the way to my dream, or just flying in general. It'd be better if he supported me, even if he showed it openly instead of financially.

He's been supportive through my life, I won't deny it. And he's been a damn good father. I just wish he'd try to explain why he's being the way he is, or listen to me when I try to ask him about things, or show at least a hint of appreciation or of him being proud or anything because honestly it's confusing the hell out of me to suddenly be on his "given up" list.

I think part of it has to do with personalities. Took one (colorcode.com) in my Organizational Behavior class and I found it interesting

I'm a hardcore Blue:
Motive-intimacy
Needs-to be good morally, to be understood, to be appreciated, acceptance
Wants-to reveal insecurities, quality, autonomy, security


From reading the descriptions of my Instructor's enhanced inventories for each color (red white blue yellow), he's definitely a Red.

REDS

Motive – power
Needs – to look good, to be right, to be respected, approval from a select few
Wants- to hide insecurities, productivity, leadership, challenging adventure



The thing I found interesting is the Do's and Don'ts section of each color and how to treat them. This is the Red Don't list, highlighted the ones that I've done:

DON’T

Embarrass them in front of others
Argue from an emotional perspective
Always use authoritarian approach
Use physical punishment
Be slow and indecisive
Expect a personal and intimate relationship
Attack them personally
Take their arguments personally
Wait for them to solicit your opinion
Demand constant social interaction (allow for alone time)


And the Don'ts for Blues, highlighted the ones he's done to me.


DON’T

Make them feel guilty
Be rude or abrupt
Promote too much change
Expect spontaneity
Abandon them (financially or told me that he is)

Expect them to bounce back easily or quickly
Demand perfection
Push them too quickly into making decisions
Expect them for forgive quickly when crossed
Demand immediate action or quick verbal bantering


I think it has to do with our personalities and how opposite they are. I can recall instances where we've done these things to each other. I'd link the Do's of each, but it's the same story, things that we almost never do to each other.

I appreciate the post Denver, and thank you for the congratulations. I will do something with it

And thanks to the rest of you guys for your continued support and advice, it means a fantastic amount to me.

 

[madtrader]

...I'm not sure what I'll find here in Shawnee, the airport terminal itself had an Enterprise rental thing and an FBO right next to each other, but no cars and no aircraft or pilots in the terminal except for me.

Reading this thread, I was guessing you were in Shawnee, or maybe Stillwell. I stopped in Shawnee to visit friends last August and it seemed like the FBO terminal is going to be real nice (it wasn't finished then, if it is now). I was going to suggest taking a look there. Also, it's a touch far, but you might want to look at Wiley Post in NW OKC. It used to have a lot of activity -- multiple FBOs, sales, training, avionics shops, engine shops, even aircraft manufacturing. Dunno if it's still that way.

 

[overdrive148]

Sounds -fantastic- madtrader, the FBO here in Shawnee is really nice, I was just considering going down there and watching aircraft go around the pattern, great view of the flight line and runway from there. It's finished and I think has been since I got here in Oct. I'm just kind of saddened that there's not more in it; there's an Enterprise rental place inside on the right and the FBO right past it, a desk with an ATIS monitor and a guy in the back. Is about it (bathrooms and the great viewing area included). Been asking a few friends who are also seemingly interested in aviation about things, there's apparently a flight school/A&P training place on the airport linked to the nearby university somewhere but I've not found it yet.

I drive to OKC for classes for ERAU from here once a week per class if it's on-campus, looks like 15-20 mins past where I go to class usually. I'll definitely look out for that and try to get out there and ask around. Will probably have to make a trip out of it before class since it starts at 5pm and runs till after dark most of the time. I definitely appreciate the advice!

At this point, I'm most worried about what I can do for a place like an avionics shop or a manufacturer since I have relatively little work experience and all I have is a pilot's license that isn't quite current and an AS and not quite a BS. I guess I could go in and ask for any job opportunities and hope that I can get my foot in the door? I'm wondering what I have that I can offer that sets me apart from others who are applying, or what I can say that'd make them consider me over others.

 

[madtrader]

Like I said, there used to be a lot going on at Wiley Post. You might not find anything there, but it's worth a look. When I was in college I had a roommate one summer that was working toward being a professional pilot. IIRC, that summer he did his commercial rating and got his CFI. He got a job with the FBO as a line guy. I think he just went in and asked. Check out who's there and active now and see if they need any help. Sometimes flight schools even staff up a bit in the summers to cover the wider hours of sunlight. The worst they can say is 'no'. It probably won't be glamorous, or pay all that well, but it might lead to something else.

 

[denverpilot]

At this point, I'm most worried about what I can do for a place like an avionics shop or a manufacturer since I have relatively little work experience and all I have is a pilot's license that isn't quite current and an AS and not quite a BS. I guess I could go in and ask for any job opportunities and hope that I can get my foot in the door? I'm wondering what I have that I can offer that sets me apart from others who are applying, or what I can say that'd make them consider me over others.

Don't short yourself. You at least know which end of the airplane is the front and that the prop can chop you to little yummy grillable bits at the next BBQ.

In all seriousness, the truth is, at the younger end of the spectrum your worth is in that you'll work for peanuts. Sorry to be blunt, but that's the raw truth. The older guy with four kids, a mortgage, and two car payments, just can't.

So, your hunt is probably for low-paying jobs where you get to know everyone who's anyone around the airport. And then you have to make your own unique opportunities of those relationships.

Have fun, go flying, and congrats on the scholarship. That amount they knocked off your bill, is definitely not pocket change!

 

[overdrive148]

So I stopped by Wiley Post; nice place! Was a business jet (falcon or lear) in the pattern when I got there, but not much else due to winds. Dropped into the airport cafe and had myself a flight-less $100 hamburger, then afterwards asked about finding a job around there. I was pointed in the direction of the airport manager, who wasn't there, then to the flight school there, which told me to check out one of their two FBO's. I walked over to Atlantic Aviation and struck up a conversation with a guy (and a girl) at the FBO who couldn't have been 5-7 years older than me. The guy had a paid-less internship at Shawnee in years past, then at Norman, then at Wiley Post; and told me that I could try to talk to Chase Aviation at Norman's airport. Long story short they got to know pilots there well enough that they'd be able to take rides on their days off when they had to ferry aircraft around, and they got to handle a wide range of aircraft and personnel and pilots and that sounds like a fantastic thing to do; a PC-12 rolled in as I was about to leave.

Then I went to AAR at Will Rogers (the large airport in OKC) and was told pretty much that I have no experience and that they wouldn't want anything to do with me. Not sure the guy understood what I was looking for, but I was running almost late for class.

Got to class, and struck up a conversation with a guy who I've been talking on and off to during class about simulator stuff and flying games; an older guy who seems to really know his stuff. I was talking about my airport/job hunt and he asked me what it was I was looking to do. I said anything to do with aviation, and he said that he knew guys in the FAA and other businesses and that he'd be more than happy to ask around if anyone needed a hand. Before I even got home (after going to Norman before heading home and talking to Chase Aviation who didn't really seem to have much open) he told me that he knew someone in some town north of OKC that needed an airplane parts salesman, and to toss him a resume so he could forward it to his good friend who runs the place. Ecstatic! Even though I have no sales experience and don't know what it'll be like or do, I think this could very well be the start of my aviation career guys

So I come to you guys once more, should I:

A) Take up the classmate's friend's offer if/when he sends it about being an airplane parts salesman

B) (sent off my resume/cover letter already) to Atlantic Aviation after they told me to toss them one in case they needed more line people.

I think that B might get me personally acquainted with pilots and be able to fly and be near and work with aircraft, i'd be over the moon even just fueling a PC-12 and other nice aircraft. But at the same time, people I could be selling parts to have aircraft, and maintain them, and may at one point in time need pilots. Someone they have correspondence with and who they trust. Could be a way in with the salesman job. I'm not sure, both are a hop skip and a leap over Braum's, who I am definitely ready to drop. I would most likely have to move for either job, and that's also a little difficult to do, but it'd be for the best for sure.

@Denver
I hope I'm not tasty in grillable bits!

I will indeed work for peanuts. Just being around aircraft and fueling them and chocking them and guiding them while taxiing and parking would be absolutely fantastic, doubly so if they're upper level nice ones! I dunno, I like building personal relationships and making people happy, I think I just need a chance to provide a service to those people and make it memorable each time. Thank you for the congrats on the scholarship by the way!

I got into a slight argument with my father again, about things that I do here and how he only knows what I'm doing through me. And if I talk to him about something that happens (E.G. hitting a tire, gas company troubles) he tells me that I'm not putting forth any effort anywhere whatsoever. If I don't talk to him about things he still says that. I kind of brought it to his attention and he kind of blew it off through email.

Then surprisingly the next morning he asked me "So, how much are your next classes and when are they?"

So I'm queuing up for another two classes as we speak. Suddenly things seem to be looking up pretty well!

 

[denverpilot]

Imagine, you're an old guy... done a lot, seen a lot... and you have a kid... wet behind the ears, hasn't really gotten off the ground yet...

That's your dad, and you, of course.

Now throw in that the wet behind the ears person is making some mistakes. And you feel responsible to help get them on the right track, but also need to let them make some.

That's the "feel" I get out of your dad's behavior... and out of almost every dad on the planet's behavior toward their kids, really...

He sees you screwing some stuff up, but knows he has to let you but also say something. And then he realizes that to keep you headed toward some sort of independent life on your own, that you'll need to go to class next semester... so he asks when and how much...

There's really no getting around it... you're going to screw up some stuff... and he's going to complain about it... and then try to help... without helping.

It's the human parent condition. I'm not one, but it's pretty universal.

Sometimes the kid never really ever catches on, and handles their own stuff... circumstance, laziness, broken brain, whatever... and you feel bad for the parent who's still prodding the 30 or 40 year old offspring along...

Just try not to be THAT kid.

The reality is... some kids get told, "You're 18... see ya..." and they get a heck of a lesson in motivation (figure it out, or don't eat...) real fast in life. At least you're not in that circumstance.

You're more the norm with the parent struggling to both help and get out of the way. They say once YOU become a dad, you'll see...

I'm no dad, but I babysit a whole hell of a lot of adults in various of my life's roles. I can definitely tell ya, an awful lot of people never really grow up...

 

[overdrive148]

One more update!

I went in for my first interview at the aviation parts sales place, got invited for a 2nd by the VP of the company, and they called me about 30 mins after that to extend an offer to me!

So now I'm in position for 14/hr starting wages and full time, starting in a week (this happened a week ago and I put in my two week's at Braum's then too). They understand that I'm green and that I have college to deal with on the side so they'll work with me on that.

On the side and off topic, I saw the Shawnee OK tornadoes first hand at work. It was incredibly intense, seeing that kind of energy and power within a couple miles. Shocks me that people were still coming through the drive thru ordering 20 bucks in food knowing full well and being able to see the tornado there. Saw the path on the way to class, devastating stuff.

The VP is a well connected person it seems, and maybe I can use my experience and pay at this job to find something more hands on pilot-wise. So excited!

 

[overdrive148]

5 month update! Necromancy be damned.

Turns out I was hired at the beginning of June! Making $14/hr doing sales and working on the computer. I drive an hour and a bit a way, each day. The hours are very good, full 8 a day plus 1 for lunch, plus a 2 hour drive...plus classes. I passed my Capstone class for sure yesterday and that was the hardest and most important class left in my degree plan. I have another 5 classes and am taking two more (full time) starting today. I am having a hard time being good at selling aircraft parts, it's more of a thing where people come to you instead of you being able to peddle old 727 parts to the very few people who fly them nowadays. I have had a few good sales though, and a lot of it is memorabilia. Sold some A300 seats to a barber shop and the coolest thing ever, sold a set of 747 seats to a USAF officer. I bent over backwards even when my sales manager was telling me to let it go because it was too low a dollar amount to worry about and he showed his thanks by taking a flag and flying it to 70,000 feet for me on one of his missions. Turns out he's a U-2 pilot. Needless to say I was ecstatic. I'll attach a picture when I get a hold of it.

The income is almost too much it feels like compared to Braum's, even though expenses are keeping me only moderately building up income. I looked into a flight school in Oklahoma City now that I am building up slowly with income, and it turns out that they charge a ridiculous $200/hr for aircraft without instructors! None of their aircraft are older than 2004, but still! I am building up a windfall for now until I can find something better or cheaper to get myself back in the air.

I am flying home to visit my parents on the first day of November, now that I can afford to do such things. My father is back to agreeing to pay for my classes, and I paid for my Capstone on my own including books. Hoping that this visit goes over a lot better than my last one. Might even go do some R/C flying with him. Thank you guys so much for the support back in May by the way, I totally needed it and it is very much appreciated!

 

[ChitDisturber]

and it turns out that they charge a ridiculous $200/hr for aircraft without instructors! None of their aircraft are older than 2004

Hours in a 1977 Cessna count just the same as a 2011 Cessna, also they dont want you to know this...but they fly the same too, heck some of the older models even fly better

 

[Anymouse]

Chris,

Most of the other folks seem to be giving you reasonable advice on your schooling. I'll just say that in regards to the problems you're having with you're father, just let it go and get on with your life. It'll be harder without the support, but it will be worth it in the long run when you prove him wrong. And you won't really owe him anything for it.

Remember, in the end, the best revenge is success.

EDIT: Didn't read your last post until I posted this. Sounds like you're doing exactly as I suggested. Keep up the good work.

 

[overdrive148]

@ChitDisturber Heck, I learned to fly in a 1966 Beechcraft Musketeer, definitely flew just fine! Just having a hard time finding affordable hours (story of any other pilot's life I'm sure).

@Anymouse Thank you sir I was about to say! I did have a sort of upset attitude about all of his actions earlier on in the year (and in past years sometimes too) but I'm hoping I'll be able to smooth things over here sometime soon. The latest problem was after moving up from fast food to a job in the aviation industry selling passenger aircraft parts, it wasn't enough. (It's never enough!).

Also, here are the attached pictures from the U-2 pilot. Too awesome.

 

[Anymouse]

The latest problem was after moving up from fast food to a job in the aviation industry selling passenger aircraft parts, it wasn't enough. (It's never enough!).

Don't feel bad. I started flying when I was 16 and soloed when I was 17, before I had a driver's license. The subject could not be mention at all in the house or my step-father would blow up. Me and my mother would make up code words so I could let her know when I was going flying. Most of my early flying was paid for by Dunkin' Donuts BTW.

 

[overdrive148]

Even the place in California I learned to fly was 100-120 an hour to fly minus instructor. Now that I have an income and idea of what a dollar means, I realize how face-meltingly expensive aviation is unless you are paid to fly.

My conundrum at the moment is what to do with my career, the inspiration I've gotten here has been great in pushing me towards doing something greater with myself. Do I like this sales job? It is better than flipping burgers or waiting on people. It pays better as well. But I don't really enjoy it as much as I was hoping, nor is it putting me in contact with the kinds of people I was hoping for either. (My philosophy was that people who need parts have planes, and people who have planes need pilots). Turns out that doesn't work when airlines and etc broker everything and the airlines wouldn't hire me anyway with just under 100 hours.

I'm planning on staying here for income, resume-building, and finishing college. I don't know where to go afterwards (story of everyone's life, right?). Flying on my own dollar is probably not going to be an option immediately (14/hr is a lot to me but it's still not enough to fly!)

 

[overdrive148]

Okay. Turns out Christmas came late. I came into work and found a neatly wrapped termination notice and was notified that it would be my last day today.

The reason is apparently that I did not sell enough to justify my position. I sold about 7x what I made from them.

 

[EdFred]

Okay. Turns out Christmas came late. I came into work and found a neatly wrapped termination notice and was notified that it would be my last day today.

The reason is apparently that I did not sell enough to justify my position. I sold about 7x what I made from them.

Yeah, that's low numbers. You should be in the 5-7% range - which means you should be selling 14-20x what they are/were paying you.

 

[AggieMike88]

Yeah, that's low numbers. You should be in the 5-7% range - which means you should be selling 14-20x what they are/were paying you.

Sounds 'bout right. I pay my salesperson's 5% commission with bonuses for upselling warranties. Top guy (who is very happy with his income) is doing $80k/mo in sales with periodic gusts to $90-95k

BTW; I am recruiting for another good salesperson.

 

[overdrive148]

There are some grumblings I have but they aren't going to get my job back. Mostly, I walked in without any experience and didn't receive much training.

Most of everything was grandfathered in with "that one trick for this" and "those parts aren't here even though they are listed". There was some frustration with me for not knowing that THAT certain UPS teardown's parts don't exist even though for all intents and purposes, they showed fine in the system.

Entire part sections off of landing gears were removed and the landing gear itself stayed in system. There was so much time devoted to learning what the **** we actually had in stock to begin with, and all of the trace setups with their catches. And then quoting prices to everyone and being friendly and getting screwed over on a couple sales, learning from that, and then apparently rarely quoting the right price for people to bite. There was no depth perception on parts; a latch assembly would be top dollar while another with the same description and that looked the same wouldn't be worth the box it was in. And the only way to know that stuff would be to have sold it before or look it up. So parts that didn't have any kind of listing at all were completely unknown to me; a switch for a 707 that I had was quoted out for multiple thousands of dollars when it was listed and sold at a very low price and it went away. I feel like without knowing what anything about the part and anything about how the hell to price it, how am i supposed to be able to sell effectively?

Calling people who have the part gets you a false, high price.
Looking in your system yields you history from the ages ago that you sold one, if you even sold one, and if it was even logged.
Looking online shows people completely screwing the market by selling overhauled parts under the cost to overhaul.

There was a rib maintenance kit last week that I was asked about by a customer that regularly dealt with my sales manager. I told him what I had in stock, what condition, trace, and that I didn't have bupkis on how much it was worth (knowing that my sales manager sold other kits in the past that were not rib kits or even close to the same PN for a whole ton of money even though there was no listed price). He came back and said $400-1000 was what he'd looked up for the parts in the kit.

I ask my sales manager what to do, because I pulled the kits down and checked the lists attached to them...well, one of them, because they were list-less, and searched the PN's and came back with - you guessed it, bupkis. He looks at the sets and says something like 3.5k. How the ****?

I email the guy and relay it from my sales manager at 3.5k. Manager asks why I said it was from him; I say because I have no frame of reference to the price and to lower it would be through you not me, plus you quoted it so it'd be a dick move to take that sale from you. He says I'm not his secretary and that I don't instill confidence in the customer by saying that; I come back with that I'm not confident because I don't know what the kit is worth in the first place! I ask how he came up with that price and he can't really say.

I don't know, I don't want to knock on the company too hard because they were more or less nice to me as well as tolerating my inexperience (that I did indeed warn them about in the interview process) and paying me by the hour when it was probably more appropriate by commission. But ugh. Old 727 parts without any business contacts or relations established plus not being able to price out parts? I understand why I was fired but good luck with the next guy who steps into my position. The entire inventory was out of whack, I sold parts that we didn't have that we showed in the system and had to go back to the customer trying to find a comfortable way to tell them that I ****ed up.

Sigh.


//edit

Just curious, what kind of sales, Mike? I am obviously looking for work now, but as it's pretty evident, I'm not a very 'good' salesman and I'm not looking to drag another sales department down into the gutter with lackluster performance.