Looking for advice from the community on how to move forward with training

[PlanningForWings]

Good afternoon any and all! I apologize in advance if any of this is stuff that's been gone over a hundred thousand times here; if there is some resource that I neglected to look through before posting, please don't hesitate to point me in that direction.

So to start, I am not a pilot; I am not (yet) even a student. However, I have always wanted to become one, and things in my life are moving to the point where I could make this happen, and I wanted to see what the pilot community thinks of my potentially hair-brained idea.

I recently started a business with my wife, and it has been very successful. One concession that I got from creating her shop for her was that I would get to learn to fly once the business "took off." The business is doing so well, it actually looks like after this winter, I could have enough saved up to buy a plane, take a sabbatical at my job, and go full time into flight training and who knows where from there.

I want to fly for a few reasons, but first because it's awesome; I've flown a Cessna 172RG for about an hour and one landing as a birthday present a few years back, and I have wanted nothing more than to get back into the cockpit ever since (and I bought a full simulator setup and have been using it often to try and recreate that experience). Secondly, I want to own an airplane capable of moderate cross-country journeys to see family. As I'm in the Pacific NW, just being 'one major city' away is several hours by car and still a couple by small aircraft, but it would be a blast to fly down to Portland to see my sister or be able to bring her and her hubby up to hang out with us in Seattle. Third, if I could find employment in the flight world, that would be a dream come true; I would really like to be able to be a CFI at some point.

So, with our business doing so well, I was going to buy a plane and train in that plane. I could buy a Cessna 150 for $30k and hire a CFI to train me in that aircraft, but then I'm stuck with a 150 and I don't really want that airplane. So I was thinking instead to save a little longer, and buy the plane that I want to keep, at least for the short term. So if I save closer to $80k, I could buy a Debonair, a Sierra, or an M20, something with 4 usable seats, decent speed, and range to get to Roseburg, OR from Seattle. I realize I would need to have probably $500-800 per month set aside for hangar, maintenance, etc. and that should be no issue.

Buying a complex airplane seems like it comes with complex problems, though. From everything I've read, there's nothing regulatory preventing me from training in a complex plane, but finding an instructor willing to take me on would be more difficult (?) and insurance would be a pain.

Are these issues going to be that difficult to overcome? Is this something I should just dump the idea and rent from a flight school like most people do?

So the next question is, where do I go from there? Obviously if I want to become a CFI I'll need to work on several additional ratings and the CPL; I'm not certain my wife would be willing to totally support us both via her baby business while I do nothing but pay flight instructors to teach me things that I may never find a job doing. What do most CFIs spend their intermediate time between getting that first PPL and getting certified without going totally broke?

Any thoughts, insights, or recommendations will be greatly welcomed.

 

[rk911]

if it were me in your shoes I would train in a rental, get your PPL then your IFR and then train in a complex. once all of that is accomplished then and only then would I consider buying a plane. monkey wrenches can be thrown and apple carts upset that can and would de-rail your plan. one step at a time. good luck.

 

[mscard88]

Just go do a Discovery flight at your local airport and then if you want to press on, talk to instructors there. Whether you fly their planes or purchase your own it can be done. Get the Private Certificate out of the way first, then I'd suggest your instrument rating.

@mulligan bought a Cessna 206 and trained in it. Got his Private and Instrument in it.

 

[mondtster]

If the goal is to be a CFI and you know you want to learn to fly then my advice would be to buy a good training airplane such as a Cessna 150, 152, 172, Piper Cherokee, Warrior, Archer, or something similar. Buy one with enough equipment in it that you can get your private and instrument rating in it, then borrow or rent a complex airplane to get your commercial and CFI ratings. After you're done with your flight training you can possibly use the airplane you already own to give flight instruction in, which would hopefully become a self supporting venture.

 

[PlanningForWings]

rk911, what's the benefit in this case of learning in a rented aircraft? From my reading, I'll probably end up spending about as much in a per hour basis on a Debonair as I would on a rental 172, not counting purchase price of course, with the benefit being that I have a plane as well as a license at the end. Is there something I'm missing?

Does anyone think it would be difficult to find a CFI to teach me in my own plane? Also if someone could provide some insight into the process of going from trainee to instructor and how that transition works (what job(s) did you have between, if any??) that would be helpful to know.

Thanks for the responses so far!

 

[RyanB]

What @mscard88 said. Find a local flight school and take a discovery flight or just jump into the first lesson, your choice. From there, you can literally take the passion anywhere.

Extra tip, free of charge-- don’t buy a plane you don’t want. You’ll thank me later!

Welcome to POA. Stick around here, will ya?

 

[PlanningForWings]

Is this "discovery" flight the one where you go up, they give you control for a bit and tell you about flying, and then you come back, takes about an hour?

If so, I've done it, and it was glorious. The instructor was about an hour late so he gave me some extra time behind the yoke to make up the difference. I think I impressed him a bit with my knowledge of the aircraft and flying in general. He ended up snapping at me for not holding an exact altitude whilst I was in control and then immediately apologized because he forgot for a moment that I wasn't a student, which he told me to take as a compliment of my flying ability. He ended up getting the plane all set onto final approach and then gave me back the airplane and I landed it, which again he said he'd only done once before during a discovery but I was doing so well he figured I could handle it. I was sweating bullets.

In any event... Yes, that milestone is past and it just gave me even more desire to get back up in the skies.

 

[denverpilot]

You’re hooked.

Thoughts. Remember your training is what will keep you alive. Spend a decent amount of time getting to know the local instructors and maybe fly with a couple. If you find one right off the bat that you like, you can stop there but if not, fly with more than one. Training is important.

Second, the reason to go with rentals at first is that you really don’t know what you like or what you don’t until you’ve flown a few types. You might only have a few in mind and know very well what your typical flying “mission” will be but maybe someone, an instructor or another pilot will point out the “perfect” airplane for you at the club or FBO. And maybe some old guy is selling his down in hangar 12...

So being a little “plugged in” to the local flying community can be a big plus. Rentals kinda naturally allow that sort of thing because everyone is standing at the front counter eventually.

Now on the complex vs non thing... there are aircraft that perform as well or better than traditional complex retracts do nowadays. Waaaay back in the day you moved up to get to those performance levels and the regulations still mirror that. Obviously if your goal is to teach, you’ll have to do it all for now, but FAA is probably going to change their tune a little bit on retracts “soonish” and allow advanced cockpit tech be the alternate standard. Learning any of that is good, but owning retracts CAN get spendy. Some retracts there’s just no cheap parts for anymore. And stuff wears out.

This is how I ended up deciding to join a co-ownership on a 182 when I wasn’t thinking about instructing. It’s a reasonably fast airplane but you always wish it could go faster. It hauls a lot of stuff but you might like an even heavier hauler if you haul stuff. It’ll do maneuvers but it’s happiest flying boring straight and level. It’s got reasonable power but it could sometimes use a little more. And it is plenty comfortable and stable as heck as an instrument platform. I call it our 80% airplane. It’ll do almost everything at a “B” level.

If the mission changes it’ll do it usually. If the mission was to travel, it’s the wrong airplane but you can still travel in it. Just pack a lunch. Stuff like that.

The advice if you are going to CFI about MAYBE buying something that students can abuse is a good one, but don’t get too emotionally attached to a working airplane. Kinda like a plain white pickup truck you buy for your business, keep business airplanes and your cream puff separate. Now I don’t mean that the trainer can’t be nicely appointed and good paint and all that, but treat any training aircraft like it’s your other business. By the time you get to CFI you’ll get to see that commercial insurance can be quintuple what you’ll be paying in insurance on your personal aircraft easily. It’s spendy.

Also... this isn’t directly related to your flying goals but... you have a successful business and it’s probably worth quite a bit but you also probably make quite a bit. Life insurance companies generally hate pilots but can’t do much about insuring us after the limits on declining you have run out. Do some research about how to properly protect your family and assets and if you need life insurance, frankly, get it and get past the drop dates with that underwriter before you’re a pilot. The number of underwriters who will cover pilots at anywhere near the same cost are few, and things you might already have for your business like a liability umbrella may never cover flying but once they know you fly, prices will jump. Older instructors with assets have a unique problem when it comes to liability. You have pockets to dig into. Most broke 20-something’s who are teaching, don’t have anything in their pockets. Just something to mull over and talk to your chosen professionals about. I am not an expert in it by any stretch.

Number one thing: Just go fly. Fly anything. Fly soon. (Unless that insurance person says not to for a bit and you need it...) Rentals are fine to start. Airplane is an airplane most rentals aren’t operated at much of a profit. You’re not really losing out on much renting, and you’ll know it when or if you find “your” airplane. But if you’re going to teach anyway, you might as well fly multiple different types.

 

[AggieMike88]

Another point about doing you’re first bit of training in a rental. Your first 10-20 hours of landings are really going to suck as all of us experienced and the chance of excessive wear and tear is high. So why not do that in a rental versus your own aircraft?

 

[RyanB]

Is this "discovery" flight the one where you go up, they give you control for a bit and tell you about flying, and then you come back, takes about an hour?

If so, I've done it, and it was glorious. The instructor was about an hour late so he gave me some extra time behind the yoke to make up the difference. I think I impressed him a bit with my knowledge of the aircraft and flying in general. He ended up snapping at me for not holding an exact altitude whilst I was in control and then immediately apologized because he forgot for a moment that I wasn't a student, which he told me to take as a compliment of my flying ability. He ended up getting the plane all set onto final approach and then gave me back the airplane and I landed it, which again he said he'd only done once before during a discovery but I was doing so well he figured I could handle it. I was sweating bullets.

In any event... Yes, that milestone is past and it just gave me even more desire to get back up in the skies.

Go ahead and jump into the first lesson.

 

[rk911]

rk911, what's the benefit in this case of learning in a rented aircraft? From my reading, I'll probably end up spending about as much in a per hour basis on a Debonair as I would on a rental 172, not counting purchase price of course, with the benefit being that I have a plane as well as a license at the end. Is there something I'm missing?

Does anyone think it would be difficult to find a CFI to teach me in my own plane? Also if someone could provide some insight into the process of going from trainee to instructor and how that transition works (what job(s) did you have between, if any??) that would be helpful to know.

Thanks for the responses so far!

the benefit is lowering your risk. stuff happens and it happens regularly. your wife's business is going gangbusters...now. to assume it will continue that way is foolish. you want to learn to fly...so did I...back in 1972. then my wife went skiing and came home with broken tendons in her knee. she was off work for 6-mos. there went her income and the lessons stopped. life kept getting in the way for the next 30-years when I finally met my goal. something happens to you or to her and your dreams go poof. laying out $80K for a plane...plus maintenance plus hangar/tiedown plus insurance while you're learning? way too much risk. I stand by my suggestions but if you're bound and determined to do this then at least have 8-12 months of routine household expenses saved before you start for when life gets in the way.

 

[PlanningForWings]

Another point about doing you’re first bit of training in a rental. Your first 10-20 hours of landings are really going to suck as all of us experienced and the chance of excessive wear and tear is high. So why not do that in a rental versus your own aircraft?

Now that is the best reason yet to do the first bit of training in a rental. The 172RG I flew I was able to stall onto the ground and it wasn't very rough, but I am certain that the instructor was helping; I know he had one hand on the yoke. Being at KBFI with its giant runway was probably a factor as well, I know I floated it for a bit and that wouldn't be so good on a shorter field. I don't want to smash the gear in a new-to-me aircraft for sure.

You’re hooked.

Thoughts. Remember your training is what will keep you alive. Spend a decent amount of time getting to know the local instructors and maybe fly with a couple. If you find one right off the bat that you like, you can stop there but if not, fly with more than one. Training is important.

I am not (very) cocky; I don't feel like I've spent so much time playing FSX and X-Plane that I can go pass my PPL practical. I plan on training and learning and training some more; I have some contacts in the flying community that I will be reaching out to shortly to find out which of the many local airports or flying schools would be best to start some introductions. I'm still several months out from any of this so this is a very preliminary plan.

The advice if you are going to CFI about MAYBE buying something that students can abuse is a good one, but don’t get too emotionally attached to a working airplane. Kinda like a plain white pickup truck you buy for your business, keep business airplanes and your cream puff separate. Now I don’t mean that the trainer can’t be nicely appointed and good paint and all that, but treat any training aircraft like it’s your other business. By the time you get to CFI you’ll get to see that commercial insurance can be quintuple what you’ll be paying in insurance on your personal aircraft easily. It’s spendy.

Number one thing: Just go fly. Fly anything. Fly soon. (Unless that insurance person says not to for a bit and you need it...) Rentals are fine to start. Airplane is an airplane most rentals aren’t operated at much of a profit. You’re not really losing out on much renting, and you’ll know it when or if you find “your” airplane. But if you’re going to teach anyway, you might as well fly multiple different types.

Can you tell me a little about your personal experience moving into becoming a CFI? Did you have a day job and you built time doing pleasure flights before moving into instruction? It sounds like you didn't plan on becoming an instructor at first; what was your motivation to move into that? How do you like it?

I have life insurance in enough quantity to make sure my wife won't be missing my income if something happens to me; I'll look at the policy terms to see what might change with a PPL; I appreciate the insurance advice, how it changes when I become a pilot isn't something I'd thought about.

the benefit is lowering your risk. stuff happens and it happens regularly. your wife's business is going gangbusters...now. to assume it will continue that way is foolish. you want to learn to fly...so did I...back in 1972. then my wife went skiing and came home with broken tendons in her knee. she was off work for 6-mos. there went her income and the lessons stopped. life kept getting in the way for the next 30-years when I finally met my goal. something happens to you or to her and your dreams go poof. laying out $80K for a plane...plus maintenance plus hangar/tiedown plus insurance while you're learning? way too much risk. I stand by my suggestions but if you're bound and determined to do this then at least have 8-12 months of routine household expenses saved before you start for when life gets in the way.

So, the risk factor makes a certain amount of sense, but from what I'm reading it doesn't seem like an airplane depreciates very quickly unless it gets damaged. The worst that should have to happen would be selling the plane at a loss just to get it sold quickly. It's something I'll take into consideration, for sure. Regarding an emergency fund, we already have about an 8 month fund saved up, we had it before we started the business and thankfully we didn't have to dig into it to get started up (it was close though). I could pull an additional 6 months out of investments if necessary as well. I understand what you're trying to say and I do not intend to mortgage my life just to get a plane.

Thanks again to everyone for their thoughts so far, please keep them coming and feel free to be blunt and tell me I'm being a stubborn idiot if I am.

 

[AggieMike88]

Regarding an emergency fund, we already have about an 8 month fund saved up, we had it before we started the business and thankfully we didn't have to dig into it to get started up (it was close though). I could pull an additional 6 months out of investments if necessary as well. I understand what you're trying to say and I do not intend to mortgage my life just to get a plane.

Good on you to have the emergency fund. Too few folks today have that.

It sounds like you get the concept of risk management. Where you recognize what could adversely affect you and figure out means to limit the impact. So Another thought about aircraft ownership for you to consider at this time is to find an ownership club, especially a non-equity club.

This idea would permit you to retain your enviable liquid cash position and still have access to a good aircraft for just the cost of monthly dues, annual renters insurance, and the wet rental rate.

If you purchased the aircraft, you will have the risk of something very expensive ($10k+) breaking or not being found during the purchase due diligence inspection. Happens frequently. And the way to manage that is to allot a very large bit of liquidity to a reserve fund. If you have that personally, wonderful. But if you don’t and the money to pay for this dips I tom the personal or wife’s business emergency fund... not wonderful. Being in a club manages this financial risk since if the airplane eats its oil pump and trashes the engine, the repair cost is the club’s responsibility. You still only owe your monthly dues which are likely very affordable.

The club route also allows you to 1) experience different aircraft that you might not be able to afford solo; 2) delay your ownership gratification while you first decide what type of aircraft fits your mission; 3) continue to save up both purchase and reserve money; 4) shop for the specific aircraft that fits not just the make/model, but is already mostly or completely fitted out the way you want it; and 5) lower your financial risk.

Keep in mind that while the new business is doing well now, your still working through the first stage where it is still possible to go months. Keeping you large lake of liquidity is important during this stage. Don’t go draining it because you desire a new hobby and toy.

Take the flight lessons, but hold off buying the aircraft. You still have much to learn and don’t want to make that acquisition of experience and wisdom any more expensive than you need to.

tl;dr - Be the tortoise, not the hare.

 

[steingar]

The biggest advantage of owning an aircraft is you have incentive to fly it. If the OP is really serious about the CFI purchasing a trainer aircraft might not be the worst move. However, the OP might have a look around his community to see what kind of complex aircraft are available to rent. In mine pickings would be slim indeed.

The best approach for the OP would be to join a flying club that has a variety of aircraft available. I find it hard to believe that such an entity doesn’t exist in a big place like Seattle.

 

[Sinistar]

You can definitely train in your own airplane and it can be something beyond the norms. I am training in my own 182 right now. It is always available and always in the state you last left it in. Neither instructor complained either, having some more power and elbow room. As for being cheaper to own vs rent, i think training in the 182 will be cheaper, but not by as much given the additional fuel burn...compared to a 172.

Regarding the wear and tear during those first 10-20 hours, well if buy a low time plane with 2000hr total and then add your first 20hrs of training with say 150 landings, it wont really be all that much in the grand scheme of things. I dont think that concern should be in your top 5 anyways. Now, you might need some new tires though (speaking from experience)

Regarding the 182: If you or your wife or one of your friends is "big" (heavy) the 182 will cross your radar again and again. Our rationale for 182 was its excellent W&B, high wing preffered by us, good short field capability, no retract to forget or add to annuals, and decent comfort for 4 plus fuel and baggage. Plus lots of approved mods, great access to parts, etc.

Now here's a reason that most overlook when trainjng in your own plane - nonflight time. When you own your own plane, you will easily add 60 minutes of time per flight just getting it out, closing up the hangar, normal preflight and on the back end, getting fuel, putting it away, etc. I believe i was averaging close to 90minutes of nonflight time for every lesson flown. Main reason to mention this, if youre the type A person and expect service and just want to show up, quick preflight, fly the lesson and hop out and head home after the log books are signed...then learning in your own plane isnt for you, unless you pay the FBO to do all that for you too ($$$$). My first training was at a FBO and i would watch how little time the renters would spend outside of flying. Being busy at work, i often envied them. I wouldnt trade it though, i got to know our plane really, really good.

Do you mind answering a few specific questions:
0. Do you have any: drug or alcohol violations? Any perscriptions? Heart/breathing issues? Psych issues?
1. How old are you?
2. How many hours do you expect it will take to get your PPL?
3. How far are you from an airport you would rent at?
4. How far are you from the airport you would hangar at?
5. What is your maximum budget for aircraft purchase and first annual?
6. Would you be borrowing any money?
7. Do you know if there are hangars available?
8. For owning the bigger faster planes, can you afford approx $100hr for fuel + mx reserve?
9. Has your primary business partner (wife) flown in a small plane yet?
10. Are you just as crazy as the rest of us!

 

[PlanningForWings]

The biggest advantage of owning an aircraft is you have incentive to fly it. If the OP is really serious about the CFI purchasing a trainer aircraft might not be the worst move. However, the OP might have a look around his community to see what kind of complex aircraft are available to rent. In mine pickings would be slim indeed.

The best approach for the OP would be to join a flying club that has a variety of aircraft available. I find it hard to believe that such an entity doesn’t exist in a big place like Seattle.

That's something I hadn't seriously considered but I'll look into. I'm sure you're right and there's plenty of those sorts of clubs around here. The only thing I'd be worried about is that they would have minimum time requirements that I won't meet until I've putzed around in something like a 152 for hours and hours...and while that should be fun, it's not really what I want to be doing. I wanna go places!

You can definitely train in your own airplane and it can be something beyond the norms. I am training in my own 182 right now. It is always available and always in the state you last left it in. Neither instructor complained either, having some more power and elbow room. As for being cheaper to own vs rent, i think training in the 182 will be cheaper, but not by as much given the additional fuel burn...compared to a 172.

Now here's a reason that most overlook when trainjng in your own plane - nonflight time. When you own your own plane, you will easily add 60 minutes of time per flight just getting it out, closing up the hangar, normal preflight and on the back end, getting fuel, putting it away, etc. I believe i was averaging close to 90minutes of nonflight time for every lesson flown. Main reason to mention this, if youre the type A person and expect service and just want to show up, quick preflight, fly the lesson and hop out and head home after the log books are signed...then learning in your own plane isnt for you, unless you pay the FBO to do all that for you too ($$$$). My first training was at a FBO and i would watch how little time the renters would spend outside of flying. Being busy at work, i often envied them. I wouldnt trade it though, i got to know our plane really, really good.

Nonflight time is expensive time. Have you considered a leaseback deal? From my reading, it seems like a pretty good option for aircraft owners, with the downside being that you don't necessarily know who's going to fly it and how they'll treat it. It's something I'm considering and would have to talk to a local FBO about.

Do you mind answering a few specific questions:
0. Do you have any: drug or alcohol violations? Any perscriptions? Heart/breathing issues? Psych issues?
1. How old are you?
2. How many hours do you expect it will take to get your PPL?
3. How far are you from an airport you would rent at?
4. How far are you from the airport you would hangar at?
5. What is your maximum budget for aircraft purchase and first annual?
6. Would you be borrowing any money?
7. Do you know if there are hangars available?
8. For owning the bigger faster planes, can you afford approx $100hr for fuel + mx reserve?
9. Has your primary business partner (wife) flown in a small plane yet?
10. Are you just as crazy as the rest of us!

0) No drug use ever, no perscriptions, the only medical issue I've had is last year my doc told me that my BP was in the warning level before high blood pressure; since then I've lost 30 pounds so I'm hoping that helped things out.
1) 31
2) I have no real idea; I know the minimum is 40, average is 55-65; if I train in my own complex aircraft I'm guessing I'll be on the high end of average or possibly above it, due to the extra things I'd have to learn, but I'll also have a complex endorsement at the end of it so I feel like I'd get better bang for my buck in that case.
3-4) I'm 45 minutes from about 12 airports that I could rent or hangar at.
5) This is fluid, it depends on how long I want to wait to start flying. I could probably have $80-100k saved up by spring or summer of next year to start this journey.
6) No. The money will mostly be loans to my business that the biz will be paying back to me.
7) I don't; it's a little early to start looking at this I think.
8) Yes.
9) Yes, she flew in the back seat of the 172RG during my discovery flight. She was only moderately scared; she actually wants to learn to fly herself if the business takes off to the point where she can part-time it.
10) At least as crazy, possibly more so...the amount of hours I've spent in the simulators (including the ATC multiplayer servers learning how to properly talk like a pilot) is a little crazy on its own, and that's just a tiny part of this whole puzzle.

Thanks for taking the time and answering some questions, I really appreciate it.

 

[RyanB]

That's something I hadn't seriously considered but I'll look into. I'm sure you're right and there's plenty of those sorts of clubs around here. The only thing I'd be worried about is that they would have minimum time requirements that I won't meet until I've putzed around in something like a 152 for hours and hours...and while that should be fun, it's not really what I want to be doing. I wanna go places!

Yes and no. It depends on the insurance requirements of the school and the schools minimum requirements to fly their aircraft solo. For a complex trainer, it's usually just a set amount of dual required in that specific airplane to satisfy insurance, rather than a pilots total time; however, actual results may vary. GL!

 

[denverpilot]

You can definitely train in your own airplane and it can be something beyond the norms. I am training in my own 182 right now. It is always available and always in the state you last left it in.

Don’t fall into that trap. Pre-Flight it like it’s a rental.

I can send photos of what the side of a 182 looks like when the left bladder tank ruptures in the hangar. It wasn’t exactly “how we left it”. Haha.

That one was pretty obvious, but stuff happens. Critters, etc. Don’t get complacent just because you think you were the last person to touch the airplane yesterday.

 

[AggieMike88]

I can send photos of what the side of a 182 looks like when the left bladder tank ruptures in the hangar. It wasn’t exactly “how we left it”.

We have had a significant leak once before we replaced the bladder and that was a big blue mess. A full rupture must have been nasty.

 

[AggieMike88]

You don’t know what you don’t know.

 

[denverpilot]

We have had a significant leak once before we replaced the bladder and that was a big blue mess. A full rupture must have been nasty.

Wasn’t much fuel in the tank at the time and the airplane probably did it as it warmed and cooled in a cold hangar in Winter, and then the puddle sat and evaporated for a while, as well as the stuff down the side, so the blue dye was quite pronounced. It also mixes with the glue and stuff in the wing root. It’s quite a mess.

It’d been a week or so since anyone had flown it at the time as I recall.

I could dig back through the logs and look but probably not that interesting. The interesting part was that it happened between flights and perhaps thankfully not DURING a flight. That would have been “interesting”.

Probably a better anecdote for the “I was the last one to fly it so it must be okay” would be the wasp nest that formed in the wing vent inlet in about two hours. Missing that would have meant a cockpit full of wasps being blown in the overhead vents and they would have been really angry about it.

Finding it meant some careful prying with a Leatherman and flinging the neat chunks on the ground and running away for ten minutes was a much nicer outcome.

 

[Vance Breese]

As I progressed on my journey to becoming a CFI I found that my tastes changed.

What I initially felt was important often became less so and things I hadn’t considered became more important.

One of the things I have learned about aviation is things often don’t work out as planned and the more flexible I am the more fun I have.

I feel purchasing an aircraft will restrict your range of experience and experience is what will help you to select the best aircraft for your aviation adventure.

In my opinion if you join a flight club or deal with a good flight school there is not a lot of money to be saved on your training by owning and a lot of challenges are avoided.

 

[Rykymus]

At only 600 hrs and holding only a PPL/IR, I'm not as qualified to advise you as most on this site, but I did buy my plane about halfway through my PPL training, so I have a bit of experience with training in rentals vs your own plane.

First, if you think you're going to save money buying a plane to train in, you're flat wrong. (Unless you get real lucky, and depending on luck is a death sentence in aviation.) But it isn't about saving money. It's about becoming a great pilot. More importantly, its about surviving. Granted, I have only flown in a half-dozen different rentals, but I have yet to see one that I would trust more than I trust the plane I own. If for no other reason than I know exactly what state it is in. I made the decisions about what to fix and how to fix it. (With the help of my A&P, of course.) And I know that I didn't cut any corners to save a buck, at the risk of those flying her.

Second, once I purchased my own plane, I never missed an opportunity to fly because there were no rentals available. I also never showed up at the airport expecting to fly, only to find a squawk during pre-flight that downed the only plane available. I also never showed up at the airport expecting to fly, only to find that the previous renter had not returned on time, and was not expected back until well into my reserved lesson.

But most importantly, having my own plane meant I could fly as much as I wanted. I got endorsed to land at nearly every airport within my 25nm training radius. Towered, untowered, skinny and short runways, right-handed patterns, you name it. And since the nearest airport to my home (which I hangared my plane at) was not the airport I was training at, I got to fly to and from each lesson. (Obviously this was well after I had soloed.) Because it was my plane, I could go up whenever I wanted, and fly for as long as I wanted. I literally was flying 4-5 days per week, and racked up over 100hrs of solo time before I even took my checkride. (Which I sailed through, because I had spent so much time flying my plane.) There were days I went up and fly for 4hrs straight. I got to spend hours playing with my GPS in the air. I knew every nuance of my autopilot. I knew every nuance of my aircraft's avionics. (Many of which my CFI had to help me understand.) I even flew twice as much solo-cross country as required. (Luckily, my CFI was willing to endorse me for that. I even got to fly and visit a friend I hadn't seen in decades, while still a student.) None of this would have been possible in a rental due to time restraints.

I honestly believe that the result of this was that once I got my PPL, I was a much better pilot than I would have been had I rented the entire time. (And I could have afforded to rent for just as many hours as I flew my own plane, if I had not purchased.) I have heard from some that the first 100hrs after getting your PPL is when you are most likely to get into trouble. Well, I had 150hrs total time by the time I got my PPL, two-thirds of which were solo time.

Once I got my ticket, I immediately went on adventures that I likely would not have been prepared for had I not flown my plane so much during my training. While there is something to be said for trying several different aircraft before you purchase, I don't think it compares with the advantages of owning your own plane during training. I also don't believe in that "buy your last plane first" stuff. You have no way of knowing what the best plane will be for you for the rest of your life. Life is full of change. I expect (heck, I'm already planning) to sell my plane in the next year or two, and step up to a twin to get my multi-rating in. (And because I want to travel further and faster than I can in my current plane.) I had no intention of flying multi-engine planes when I first started. Heck, I didn't even expect to buy a plane, ever! But I'm sure glad I did.

Now, in regards to teaching in your own plane, I wouldn't. Not unless I could afford to have two planes. (One for my personal use, and one to teach in.) I know I beat the hell out of the rentals learning to land. (So I'm glad I didn't buy my plane until after I had learned to land decently.) If you want to teach, there's no reason you can't teach for some flight school using their planes.

 

[HAPPYDAN]

Well, my opinion may be useless because I finally gave up the chase, but I think you have a pretty good idea. Cessna 150/152 is a great plane, and most have depreciated all the way. There are lots of good mechanics around and parts are readily available; so you could fly it for a year of two, keep it in good shape, and sell it for what you paid. Where I live, flying lessons with a rental is problematic these days (thank the military, VA, and commercial incentives), so buying a good plane to train in makes sense. If - my wife would have agreed to it. It's a bummer to finally have the time and money, only to get thwarted by "other issues". Good Luck!

 

[Sinistar]

@PlanningForWings Thanks for answering the questions! So, you are young (31), should get your medical with no issues, have some sim time, can afford to buy or rent, can afford hourly costs (if you buy), have several airports around you and your wife is more onboard than against - wow! Keep in mind this is coming from someone who is still working on the PPL and in my own plane. I would recommend renting .

At your age I have a hunch you will solo and finish quickly if you can dedicate like at least 3 flights a week. Maybe train in a 152 to keep the hourly rental costs down. Lets say your lessons end up costing you $11,000 (high side). You might look at that like it could have all went to airplane ownership - and some of that would have. But not the instructor fees, fuel, mx reserves. So lets say for arguments sake that $3500 of that could have went towards your plane. IMHO, that just isn't enough to lock you into airplane ownership at your age and interests. I envy your youth and wish I had learned at your age.

From your description, you and your wife could very well end up owning something like a SR20 one day. Probably better to quickly get your PPL, then figure out what to buy right after that.

If you purchase, I would not use your own plane to give lessons in. And you mentioned lease-back. I would never do it with my plane. It will get beat to heck, puked in, trashed and who knows what else and you will have to pay for every thing.

 

[PlanningForWings]

At only 600 hrs and holding only a PPL/IR, I'm not as qualified to advise you as most on this site, but I did buy my plane about halfway through my PPL training, so I have a bit of experience with training in rentals vs your own plane..... (snipped)

This post is exactly what I was looking for. I suppose your argument that you didn't save any money from buying your own plane to learn in, is because you spent so much more time flying that plane than most people who get their PPL. So in a way, you did save money vs. if you'd had all of those flight hours in rental aircraft. What aircraft did you buy if you don't mind me asking?

@PlanningForWings Thanks for answering the questions! So, you are young (31), should get your medical with no issues, have some sim time, can afford to buy or rent, can afford hourly costs (if you buy), have several airports around you and your wife is more onboard than against - wow! Keep in mind this is coming from someone who is still working on the PPL and in my own plane. I would recommend renting .

At your age I have a hunch you will solo and finish quickly if you can dedicate like at least 3 flights a week. Maybe train in a 152 to keep the hourly rental costs down. Lets say your lessons end up costing you $11,000 (high side). You might look at that like it could have all went to airplane ownership - and some of that would have. But not the instructor fees, fuel, mx reserves. So lets say for arguments sake that $3500 of that could have went towards your plane. IMHO, that just isn't enough to lock you into airplane ownership at your age and interests. I envy your youth and wish I had learned at your age.

From your description, you and your wife could very well end up owning something like a SR20 one day. Probably better to quickly get your PPL, then figure out what to buy right after that.

If you purchase, I would not use your own plane to give lessons in. And you mentioned lease-back. I would never do it with my plane. It will get beat to heck, puked in, trashed and who knows what else and you will have to pay for every thing.

My wife isn't just for it, she's promised that it will happen, so I'm definitely lucky in that category vs. some others who are having trouble getting their other half onboard.

You said that you wouldn't recommend buying my own and then pretty much went through the reason why I would want to; $3500 of my training costs (in your example) would be going into my own aircraft. Yeah, it doesn't look like much compared to the cost of a plane, but the flip side of that is that barring damage, the plane shouldn't depreciate (much) and may actually appreciate (but don't count on it). So if I do decide that what I really want is a Baron and not a Debonair, I should be able to list my Deb and move up in the world; all I would need at that time is patience waiting for the plane to sell, or enough money to buy the Baron outright and the willingness to leaseback the Deb while it's waiting to be sold. So other than being 'locked in,' what is the actual downside? And...yeah I'll probably do my first 10 or 15 landings in a rental just to make sure I can get that part down before I buy my own aircraft. What I would like to do in that case is see if I can get a CFI who is knowledgeable in the type I eventually am looking at and would be willing to fly to the aircraft with me and look it over and give me his perspective before a purchase is made; I dunno if this is feasible or not but it's something I'm thinking about.

Regarding the SR20...I'm honestly not a huge fan of the Cirrus aircraft. Maybe it's just inherent bias from my father who trained in and sold them, but I seem to be a Beechcraft guy; they're tough, beautiful, fast, and efficient. So I'll look at a few types...but I'm pretty sure I already know which way I'm leaning.

Finally, I never really thought of giving lessons in my plane; becoming a CFI is just something I think I could be good at, and something that I could earn a living doing while still flying. If I were to go the CFI route it would be to work with a flight school or possibly train others in their planes, because hey, I wanted to do that too. But for my plane, it's my plane. Leasing back is something I could maybe, possibly consider, but I would have to have a pretty solid relationship with the group that I'm leasing it to and who they would allow to rent it.

Thanks so much to everyone who has replied.

 

[Sinistar]

Cool, it really sounds like to have a pretty specific idea of what type of plane you want. I see how successful Cirrus marketing is (to their credit) and it would seem that quite often a couple in your shoes would be more likely to go for the composite, modern cockpit/interior cruising plane. Yet you are comfortable going with something a bit older that you could update as you like or just fly it as-is.

I kind of purposely used the $3500 example as its a rather small number in the overall picture of owning most aircraft. And with all the hassles of buying, pre-buy mechanic travel and inspection time and the first annual that $3500 might be scratched out. So I guess I was trying to say its not worth owning just for that small of a difference. You most likely will not see a plane appreciate right now, but something like a decent 152 probably holds it own pretty good...unless you fly a crap load off of the TBO time.

So I could be wrong I guess. One great thing about 152's (besides low entry cost) is that they build the exact same hours as a faster/spendier plane at a much lower cost! You just have to watch out (as you should anyways) for W&B issues and if you are going to do a lot of flying at high density altitudes near max take off weight.

Keep us posted on what you finally decide on doing.

 

[WannFly]

I bought mine halfway thru my training too and do not regret it a bit. I learned in the plane that I will be and I am flying rt now. I know quite a bit about my plane, of course I learn something new every time. But when I go to airport I know exactly what state the plane would be in, no one has touched it since I flew and I am on top of any maintainance, which a rental might not be at. It's not even a month that I got my PPL, I already flew about 22 hrs, I doubt I would have flown that much renting. I can basically fly whenever I want and weather permits and when I go to XC I don't have to rush back thinking the FBO would charge be x hours if I don't return on time. A week or so back I had to divert to another airport and kept the plane there overnight. There was no pressure of FBO hanging over my head, that's just one less pressure when making the decision to divert and keep the plane overnight somewhere. Might not seem like much, but I am pretty sure that added pressure of FBO return policy plays a role in pushing thru in less than ideal weather.

Like others said, u won't save any money over renting, but it completely makes sense to learn in something that you will fly. I don't know if this is my last plane or not, but I am enjoying the hell out of her. Don't know what's in store for tomorrow in life...so the buy your last plane first doesn't apply to me.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

 

[AggieMike88]

“The Five Stages of Acquisition, according to the Ferengi, were infatuation, justification, appropriation, obsession, and resale.”

One thing that hasn’t been said yet is that once you have narrowed your choices is to take your wife and go sit in the plane for a while. Make sure you both are going to be comfortable for many hours. While some might be comfortable in the narrow confines of a Cherokee when solo, adding another adult might be too cozy and a wider cabin of the 182 would be preferred.

But you two won’t know this until you not experience the airplane.

 

[Sinistar]

I bought mine halfway thru my training too and do not regret it a bit. I learned in the plane that I will be and I am flying rt now. I know quite a bit about my plane, of course I learn something new every time. But when I go to airport I know exactly what state the plane would be in, no one has touched it since I flew and I am on top of any maintainance, which a rental might not be at. It's not even a month that I got my PPL, I already flew about 22 hrs, I doubt I would have flown that much renting. I can basically fly whenever I want and weather permits and when I go to XC I don't have to rush back thinking the FBO would charge be x hours if I don't return on time. A week or so back I had to divert to another airport and kept the plane there overnight. There was no pressure of FBO hanging over my head, that's just one less pressure when making the decision to divert and keep the plane overnight somewhere. Might not seem like much, but I am pretty sure that added pressure of FBO return policy plays a role in pushing thru in less than ideal weather.

Well said!!!! Although everyone one of those could be called a intangible, they are worth something. Not necessarily $$$$ but worth something.

Like others said, u won't save any money over renting, but it completely makes sense to learn in something that you will fly. I don't know if this is my last plane or not, but I am enjoying the hell out of her. Don't know what's in store for tomorrow in life...so the buy your last plane first doesn't apply to me.

I will admit, if our income was about double and I had like another 100hrs beyond my PPL..both fairly possible but seeming unlikely at the moment ...we would actually look very seriously at a TTX. I love our 182. It is very likely our last plane (90% chance). Amazing machine. Works so good for us. However, I sense we will want travel more and I'm sure a faster low wing, fixed gear cruiser would be much more desirable.

 

[denverpilot]

Finally, I never really thought of giving lessons in my plane; becoming a CFI is just something I think I could be good at, and something that I could earn a living doing while still flying. If I were to go the CFI route it would be to work with a flight school or possibly train others in their planes, because hey, I wanted to do that too. But for my plane, it's my plane. Leasing back is something I could maybe, possibly consider, but I would have to have a pretty solid relationship with the group that I'm leasing it to and who they would allow to rent it.

You asked and I never answered about why I decided to do the CFI route. Your reasoning is similar to mine except for one important point. CFIs don’t make much. Not compared to my day job.

You CAN “make a living” as a CFI, I think. But not a GREAT living. You’d have to specialize in some higher performance and/or rarer aircraft and even then, the per hour rate is still somewhat capped by the overall costs of flying for your students, as well as all sorts of things that cancel flights, scheduling conflicts, you name it. To make a hard core living at it, it’s a very time intensive job. It’s time intensive just keeping up on things and being prepared for students and all that even as a part-timer, but you’d need a lot of students and hours to make it your day job, and you’d run out of hours in the day eventually.

We could probably do a whole thread on just this, asking the CFIs here what they think about it, but in general, there’s more lucrative ways to make a living with a lot less responsibility and even liability risk.

That said, I haven’t met many instructors that dislike the job. And I’ve met a number of instructors who ONLY did it to build time so they could apply for a pay CUT and apply for that steady paycheck at a regional airline as an FO, with bennies perhaps at many, especially nowadays, and start over at the bottom of a totem pole system where your seniority number literally rules your world. Even most of those pilots enjoyed instructing. A few didn’t but it was the only way to their ultimate goal.

I honestly looked at it fiscally as a “decent retiree job” someday if my health is decent, and better than hanging out at Walmart or Home Depot... nothing wrong with those jobs, of course... just that the view is better from the “office” in the airplane.

I don’t think I feel like going fiscally backward that much to make it my full time gig, but I do crunch the numbers from time to time. I also don’t think I feel like chasing the politics nor would have the experience to be an examiner for a very long time, and I’d be very old by then. Well, depending on how one defines “old”. I didn’t think I’d chase the CFI ratings in my 40s either. There’s a LOT of really young ( and often very bright! ) CFIs struggling along truly making a living at it. Grey hair gives a little more experience, but many of them beat me on flight time, and will for many years at the rate I’ll probably teach at.

Hard to say. Opportunities come along and sometimes one even chases them. But I’m not expecting much in the fiscal side of the balance sheet because the numbers aren’t great. I’m just looking to be a decent instructor with hopefully at least average skills in imparting aeronautical knowledge to students and helping them along. Obviously I’ll shoot for better than average, but everyone does. Only the students and examiners will be able to tell me if I’m hitting the mark, until I gain experience.

If you do it, I think you’d find it rewarding, but just crunch some hour numbers and notice it’s not the BEST way to make a living. Lots of kids will do it at or below poverty level to earn the hours to get out of teaching and into a jet cockpit. And there’s nothing wrong with that, other than it’s an oddity that is mostly an Aviation thing. Not too many jobs are so good that people will take serious pay cuts to do them.

This job... might be worth it. Just be careful thinking it’ll be high paying. Aviation usually isn’t at the bottom end.

 

[Clark1961]

I think, the start of any training will be tough but as you go along , you won't regret what you have learned. Just hold on to your goal and I'm sure it will be easy moving forward.

Starting has its challenges. Later when you and your instructor have expectations training can get tough. Hang in there all the way through.

 

[Rushie]

If I had it to do all over again...

Train in the venerable 150/152 rentals for the first half at least (beat up their gear), then purchase a 172 and finish up in my own plane. Transitioning may add some time but it's not that big a deal between those two.

The first plane you buy might not be the last, your mission may change. Our 172 was great for in-state trips to the coast and hundred dollar hamburgers. Then a 182RG gave us better range for longer trips out of state, and finally when hubby needed to cross mountains on a regular basis we got the Baron and he got his ME.