Looking for a trainer

[jaysuwan]

So I've been looking at a few models and there seems to be bad reputation for every 2 seat trainer that is not a cessna. I don't mind a 150/152 but the problem is, they tend to be more expensive than the rest of the trainer. But I would still consider it.

I will be using this through to commercial and for time building after that until I get my hours for ATP.

I am looking for something with relatively low time around or below $18k just for the plane. Also something that won't take too much upgrading when I move on to my ifr rating(currently around 15 hours in a 172). and i guess most 2 seaters won't use too much fuels.

So far I've looked into

- pa38( which there seems to be a bunch of people hating on it)

- AA1 yankee the first one(again found quite a few forums that people keep saying they don't recommend this as a trainer.)

- 150/152 which seems to be the safest and most expensive options out of all this.

- Any other trainer anyone would recommend around this price is welcome.

At the moment I am looking primarily at Yankee just because of the price. I found a couple with around 200-300 smoh vfr(most of them only need an extra nav/com and glide slope for the ifr)at around $14,900(this one i think has everything I need but is high time at 1,700 hrs) up to $19,000

I am trying to keep the price of the plane low so I have some money left for emergency and upgrade if need be.

Any thought or recommendation?

 

[jaysuwan]

Also I'm curious on the payload of the 2 seaters. They usually run about (with full fuel)320-360. How the heck do you fit 2 people in it. I weight 185lb already my CFI probably a little less but combine and they are most likely will go over gross weight.

Am I missing something here?

 

[James331]

I’d go for the AA1 out of your bunch, I’ve flown and CFIed in all of them, presuming you meant a PA28 not a PA38, and the AA1 is the best, the lower skilled people don’t like them for the same reasons lazy people don’t like to work. Frankly the AA1 flys like a high performance plane and is much more nimble on the controls, plus being able to crack the canopy open is great on a nice day.

I’d also consider a C120, chief or the like

Look into if it qualifies for a auto fuel STC, can make a large difference in how much it costs to fly
http://www.autofuelstc.com/

All that bring said, getting your plane to get your CPL is a good idea if you're smart and hands on, but building hours in your own plane to the ATP is a expensive and bad idea, shy of a desperate regional who will take anyone with a pulse and ATP mins, it looks much better on the resume and on your own wallet to get a job flying after you get your CPL and WORK your way to your ATP, flying for yourself and flying for someone are two different worlds.

There is a reason 99% of professional pilots get a flying job(s) and work to build from their initial CPL to their ATP.

 

[JCranford]

Naaa, he probably meant the PA-38 Tomahawk. I did most of my initial primary in a Tomahawk in '79. I enjoyed flying it

 

[Greg Bockelman]

Naaa, he probably meant the PA-38 Tomahawk. I did most of my initial primary in a Tomahawk in '79. I enjoyed flying it

Yeah, this.

 

[Groundpounder]

What about the PA-28-140?

 

[Kansas Flyer]

So I've been looking at a few models and there seems to be bad reputation for every 2 seat trainer that is not a cessna. I don't mind a 150/152 but the problem is, they tend to be more expensive than the rest of the trainer. But I would still consider it.

I will be using this through to commercial and for time building after that until I get my hours for ATP.

I am looking for something with relatively low time around or below $18k just for the plane. Also something that won't take too much upgrading when I move on to my ifr rating(currently around 15 hours in a 172). and i guess most 2 seaters won't use too much fuels.

So far I've looked into

- pa38( which there seems to be a bunch of people hating on it)

- AA1 yankee the first one(again found quite a few forums that people keep saying they don't recommend this as a trainer.)

- 150/152 which seems to be the safest and most expensive options out of all this.

- Any other trainer anyone would recommend around this price is welcome.

At the moment I am looking primarily at Yankee just because of the price. I found a couple with around 200-300 smoh vfr(most of them only need an extra nav/com and glide slope for the ifr)at around $14,900(this one i think has everything I need but is high time at 1,700 hrs) up to $19,000

I am trying to keep the price of the plane low so I have some money left for emergency and upgrade if need be.

Any thought or recommendation?

On the Yankees you have to remember there are differences in the wings between the AA1 & the AA1A and beyond. The AA1 is faster, but also stalls at a higher speed than than the later models and all AA1's have a reputation as ground lovers unless they have an engine upgrade. BTW 1700 hrs isn't necessarily high time, if that is the original O-235 they have a TBO of 2400 hrs so it has plenty left to give in theory at least. You are right to be concerned about gross weight though, With you and your instructor you probably won't be able to carry full fuel.

You might look into Cherokee 140s. They can be had fairly inexpensively, will out perform most 2 seat trainers, can burn Mogas which saves $$, and will easily carry you + your CFI, some random crap, and full fuel.

 

[jaysuwan]

I’d also consider a C120, chief or the like

Sorry, new at this stuff. c120?, chief?

All that bring said, getting your plane to get your CPL is a good idea if you're smart and hands on, but building hours in your own plane to the ATP is a expensive and bad idea, shy of a desperate regional who will take anyone with a pulse and ATP mins, it looks much better on the resume and on your own wallet to get a job flying after you get your CPL and WORK your way to your ATP, flying for yourself and flying for someone are two different worlds.

Oh no, I still intent on getting my CFI and teach. Just saying that I would still keep this to fly on the day I don't have student also.

What about the PA-28-140?

You might look into Cherokee 140s.

They tend to either run over my budget or comes with a high time engine. I know a lot of people get their engine to run well over TBO but because I don't know how they were treated prior to getting to me, I'd rather not risk it. And I know low time engine could bust on me too but again, I'd rather take my chance on low time engine rather than high.

With you and your instructor you probably won't be able to carry full fuel.

yea and this is before I put a bunch more stuff in it to make it ifr capable. and i'm not set on AA1 or the models after yet. I've been seeing both AA1 and AA1A for good prices. I think I have like 60lb more on the AA1 though.

So how do people get their training in the AA1x or any 2 seaters? because it seems like they all would run into weight issues.

 

[jaysuwan]

Any thought on tri pacer? and colt?

 

[jaysuwan]

I’d go for the AA1 out of your bunch, I’ve flown and CFIed in all of them, presuming you meant a PA28 not a PA38, and the AA1 is the best, the lower skilled people don’t like them for the same reasons lazy people don’t like to work. Frankly the AA1 flys like a high performance plane and is much more nimble on the controls, plus being able to crack the canopy open is great on a nice day.

I’d also consider a C120, chief or the like

Look into if it qualifies for a auto fuel STC, can make a large difference in how much it costs to fly
http://www.autofuelstc.com/

All that bring said, getting your plane to get your CPL is a good idea if you're smart and hands on, but building hours in your own plane to the ATP is a expensive and bad idea, shy of a desperate regional who will take anyone with a pulse and ATP mins, it looks much better on the resume and on your own wallet to get a job flying after you get your CPL and WORK your way to your ATP, flying for yourself and flying for someone are two different worlds.

There is a reason 99% of professional pilots get a flying job(s) and work to build from their initial CPL to their ATP.

Do you ever run into problem with the weight with the Yankee? and if I was going to go for this would you recommend AA1 or AA1A?

 

[James331]

Sorry, new at this stuff. c120?, chief?


Oh no, I still intent on getting my CFI and teach. Just saying that I would still keep this to fly on the day I don't have student also.




They tend to either run over my budget or comes with a high time engine. I know a lot of people get their engine to run well over TBO but because I don't know how they were treated prior to getting to me, I'd rather not risk it. And I know low time engine could bust on me too but again, I'd rather take my chance on low time engine rather than high.


yea and this is before I put a bunch more stuff in it to make it ifr capable. and i'm not set on AA1 or the models after yet. I've been seeing both AA1 and AA1A for good prices. I think I have like 60lb more on the AA1 though.

So how do people get their training in the AA1x or any 2 seaters? because it seems like they all would run into weight issues.

Gotcha, I did a similar thing when I got my Stinson, built you’re in it and kept it till I later got a different plane.

C120

Chief

Both are lots more fun, better to learn in and will carry two people and enough fuel to stay in the air for a bit.

 

[jaysuwan]

Gotcha, I did a similar thing when I got my Stinson, built you’re in it and kept it till I later got a different plane.

C120

Chief

Both are lots more fun, better to learn in and will carry two people and enough fuel to stay in the air for a bit.

Will probably get tailwheel endosement once I am done with my ifr. Never really thought about owning a tailwheel though. Are there many of them that are ifr capable? it seems like something I would do as a next step but not buy one to keep as time building. But maybe I need to get a lesson done and see. Will I be able to use these up until CPA?

 

[bobmrg]

Any thought on tri pacer? and colt?

After I switched from floats to wheels, most of my primary training was in these planes. Perfectly good for the purpose if you can find one. My knee-jerk answer, though, is a taildragger like an Aeronca Champ, Cessna 120/140, etc. You will be a better pilot (not airplane driver) with taildragger training. Good luck finding a CFI who can teach tailwheel.

Bob

 

[jaysuwan]

After I switched from floats to wheels, most of my primary training was in these planes. Perfectly good for the purpose if you can find one. My knee-jerk answer, though, is a taildragger like an Aeronca Champ, Cessna 120/140, etc. You will be a better pilot (not airplane driver) with taildragger training. Good luck finding a CFI who can teach tailwheel.

Bob

I keep hearing this I can see the point. finding CFI is gonna be hard though. I kinda like my CFI right now so don't wanna try looking for a new one. Maybe I should do TW after PPL and then decide? in the mean time just keep renting. and can you use TW plane through CPL training?

 

[write-stuff]

Thumbs down on the Yankee for training. It has a relatively small landing window. The Tomahawk has an undeserved bad reputation. Fly it right, tap the rudder if a little yaw oscillation sets up, and you'll enjoy learning in it. Good ventilation and good visibility.

 

[retpd2001]

Any thought on tri pacer? and colt?

Both would be good, but maybe not for IFR. I have owned both, PM me if your interested in a Tri-Pacer, mine might be coming up for sale.

 

[Kansas Flyer]

@jaysuwan where are you at in your training? Have your ppc already or just starting out?

 

[jaysuwan]

@jaysuwan where are you at in your training? Have your ppc already or just starting out?

about to solo this week.

 

[James331]

The IFR aspect is just the panel the plane has, the type of landing gear doesn’t really matter too much.

 

[James331]

Do you ever run into problem with the weight with the Yankee? and if I was going to go for this would you recommend AA1 or AA1A?

Depends on your size, but not really too bad, also lots of your time building it’ll just be you and that will give you room for full tanks and stuff for sure.

AA1 vs AA1A, all the same really, they are easy to fly, I mean we’re talking a small GA plane built with the idea is might be used as a trainer, not the space shuttle. Any. CFI worth anything should be more than able to get you squared up in any of the planes you’ve mentioned.

 

[jaysuwan]

Depends on your size, but not really too bad, also lots of your time building it’ll just be you and that will give you room for full tanks and stuff for sure.

AA1 vs AA1A, all the same really, they are easy to fly, I mean we’re talking a small GA plane built with the idea is might be used as a trainer, not the space shuttle. Any. CFI worth anything should be more than able to get you squared up in any of the planes you’ve mentioned.

The only thing stopping me from moving forward right now is the weight. I weight 185 and correct me if im wrong. the payload with full tank is only a little over 300. The problem starts with all the planes I've found in good prices are either in central time or eastern time so I have to bring it back to CA with my CFI.

I heard that the AA1 stall speed is higher but the payload is also better.

 

[jaysuwan]

and do you make an offer first? or do you have someone do prebuy first? me being light years away from the planes cant go take a look myself and would have someone do a prebuy for me.

 

[DFH65]

Piper Colt, Plenty of useful load. Cheap enough.

 

[mscard88]

I've instructed in a number of TW planes, PA28-140 and other Pipers, various Cessnas, and Beech Skipper. I prefer the the C152 which is an excellent trainer IMO, and a fun plane to own to fly around in. I didn't mind the Skipper but I'd personally choose a 152 over it. TWs are excellent to teach and learn in of course.

 

[Kansas Flyer]

and do you make an offer first? or do you have someone do prebuy first? me being light years away from the planes cant go take a look myself and would have someone do a prebuy for me.

I would discuss the aircraft in detail with the seller and agree on a price first with the understanding that it is contingent on a prebuy finding it as described. If something is found during the prebuy you can then renegotiate the price based on what it is or just walk away.

 

[chemgeek]

My first aircraft was an AA1A. Put about 400 hr on it after getting my certificate. Easy to fly just follow the POH. I think my plane had 368 lb of usable load with full fuel. I took lots of XC in it with another aboard, back when I weighed 180. For dual training flights, you don't need full fuel. Leave off 6 gallons and you can accommodate a heavier instructor.

On the other hand, I would not recommend an AA1A for instrument training. Get something larger that has more range and you can put more avionics in. I traded in my AA1A for an AA5 which is a decent IFR trainer and IFR XC airplane.

The Cessna 15x is a great trainer for sure, other less pricey options might include a Cherokee 140.

 

[chemgeek]

Thumbs down on the Yankee for training. It has a relatively small landing window.

Wholly undeserved. It's a pussycat if you fly by the POH. If you train in a C152 and don't read the POH, or if you take the POH numbers for approach and add 5 mph for the crosswind, 5 mph for the wife, and 5 mph for insurance, you will get into trouble. Just like in a C172 or Cherokee.

 

[tmyers]

I am surprised Bryan hasn't come along yet to tell him about the best accessory in the world, Grumman Poodles

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

 

[jaysuwan]

My first aircraft was an AA1A. Put about 400 hr on it after getting my certificate. Easy to fly just follow the POH. I think my plane had 368 lb of usable load with full fuel. I took lots of XC in it with another aboard, back when I weighed 180. For dual training flights, you don't need full fuel. Leave off 6 gallons and you can accommodate a heavier instructor.

On the other hand, I would not recommend an AA1A for instrument training. Get something larger that has more range and you can put more avionics in. I traded in my AA1A for an AA5 which is a decent IFR trainer and IFR XC airplane.

The Cessna 15x is a great trainer for sure, other less pricey options might include a Cherokee 140.

Yea I'm really concern about the weight because this is the plane I'd use to do all my training and with all the ifr stuff. and when I ferry it back from east coast to CA. not having a full tank would be a pain in the ass.

I just found a pa28 for 20k with ifr panel. only thing is its high time engine but we'll get it check out. someone is helping me looking for mechanics right now. finger cross

 

[denverpilot]

You might look into Cherokee 140s. They can be had fairly inexpensively, will out perform most 2 seat trainers, can burn Mogas which saves $$, and will easily carry you + your CFI, some random crap, and full fuel.

And can often be found with enough instruments in the panel to do the Instrument rating, since he said he was headed for ATP.

Frankly with as much of a beating as a primary trainer MIGHT take during training, I wouldn’t buy one.

I’d rent somebody else’s and then buy after the Private, something I would do the Instrument and Commercial in (minus the rental of something retract to fulfil those hours) and would be comfortable enough for time building.

And cheap to *operate* if you’re planning to build time on your own dime all the way from 250 to 1500.

MoGas could help immensely with that.

Primary two seat trainers are usually not being rented out for much of a profit margin if any. If you can’t afford to rent it, you can’t afford to buy it.

 

[denverpilot]

Yea I'm really concern about the weight because this is the plane I'd use to do all my training and with all the ifr stuff. and when I ferry it back from east coast to CA. not having a full tank would be a pain in the ass.

Why? You said you were building time anyway? It’s not meant to be a traveling airplane with half of the country hops in turboprop comfort in the low flight levels, if it’s a time builder. LOL.

Couple hours, stop and fill, couple more hours, stop and fill, not that big a deal if you’re trying to fly a thousand hours or more.

 

[jaysuwan]

Why? You said you were building time anyway? It’s not meant to be a traveling airplane with half of the country hops in turboprop comfort in the low flight levels, if it’s a time builder. LOL.

Couple hours, stop and fill, couple more hours, stop and fill, not that big a deal if you’re trying to fly a thousand hours or more.

no, i get that. but most planes with good prices are either mid west or east coast. usually at least 1000nm away. So even if I was planning on just building time by myself, I'd have to get it back first. and the range is bad enough with full tank, flying half tank each leg is just gonna be a pain in the ass when I'm flying 1500 nm to bring back home. also as i mentioned before I'd have to do xcountry for the training and that would be a pain too but that is still doable.

Primary two seat trainers are usually not being rented out for much of a profit margin if any. If you can’t afford to rent it, you can’t afford to buy it.

Thing about renting a trainer is, they are pretty beat up and I don't see many 2 seaters for rent around here. I think it has to do with the profit margin for the renter. And if I'm planning on buying one anyway might as well do it now and get to know the plane and get used to it. Thats what I thought at least. and by the time I go get the plane I'd solo by then and will do mostly xcountry and some patternwork by myself.

and like I mentioned I found a 140/160conversion with a real nice pannel for 20k. trade off is engine has about 2400 hrs with 2 cylinder top off with 900stoh and another one at 300stoh. So hopefully the mechanics won't find too many problems and will give me a green light to go get it. at least with this I can keep it for xcountry with my main sponsor(my soon to be wife/boss) and not have to worry about the weight too much.

The Yankee still seems pretty fun to fly though, and I might be weird but I like the way it look. and the open canopy. talk about a cheap convertible lol. So if anyone is in socal and want to take me for a ride in a Yankee, let me know

 

[denverpilot]

no, i get that. but most planes with good prices are either mid west or east coast. usually at least 1000nm away. So even if I was planning on just building time by myself, I'd have to get it back first. and the range is bad enough with full tank, flying half tank each leg is just gonna be a pain in the ass when I'm flying 1500 nm to bring back home. also as i mentioned before I'd have to do xcountry for the training and that would be a pain too but that is still doable.

If the thing flies average of 110 knots, it’s a 13 hour trip. Two days. That’s pretty typical of most trainers for speeds. 1500nm is still a two day trip and a little over 11 hours in my Skylane. It’s not that big a difference. What I’m saying is, it doesn’t matter what you buy 1500 nm away, it’s going to take you two days of flying to get it home and both will be long ass days.

And then you’ll be done with 1.04% of the 1250 hours you’re saying you’re going to build in it.

In other words, whether your butt is in your own airplane or someone else’s and you’re getting paid, this “pain in the butt” is completely minor compared to the other 98%+ of the time you’ll need to reach ATP. Hahaha.

Your butt is going to be doing a LOT of flights like that one. Almost 100 more of them, if you can afford to pay to fly all that time in it.

Thing about renting a trainer is, they are pretty beat up and I don't see many 2 seaters for rent around here.

Maybe I missed it but where are you?

Around here, the lack of two seaters has nothing to do with rental profits and has everything to do with how useless they become in summertime when the density altitude climbs to within a couple thousand feet of their service ceiling, while they’re sitting on the ramp.

 

[jaysuwan]

Around here, the lack of two seaters has nothing to do with rental profits and has everything to do with how useless they become in summertime when the density altitude climbs to within a couple thousand feet of their service ceiling, while they’re sitting on the ramp.

that was just my guess, but what you say would contribute to that as well. I'm in Socal btw. almost everywhere is renting 172s but I have yet to find a 150/152s

If the thing flies average of 110 knots, it’s a 13 hour trip. Two days. That’s pretty typical of most trainers for speeds. 1500nm is still a two day trip and a little over 11 hours in my Skylane. It’s not that big a difference. What I’m saying is, it doesn’t matter what you buy 1500 nm away, it’s going to take you two days of flying to get it home and both will be long ass days.

And then you’ll be done with 1.04% of the 1250 hours you’re saying you’re going to build in it.

In other words, whether your butt is in your own airplane or someone else’s and you’re getting paid, this “pain in the butt” is completely minor compared to the other 98%+ of the time you’ll need to reach ATP. Hahaha.

I'm not complaining about the length here. Just that if the tank is not full, instead of doing a 3-4 hour leg(benefit of having a young bladder ) we would have to make a fuel stop every hour or so with reserve,with the Yankee for example. So maybe instead of 5-7 legs total it would be 13-15 instead. I'd still do it if it comes to that. but would prefer to do a longer leg if possible.

Almost 100 more of them, if you can afford to pay to fly all that time in it

And that is my plan. So with the hours I'll get here I'll get my xcountry part of ppl done with this trip lol.

So in summary I'm not complaining about the log ass day, really complaining about the short ass leg.

 

[denverpilot]

So in summary I'm not complaining about the log ass day, really complaining about the short ass leg.

LOL. Understood.

Just think, you could get your CFI and do one hour legs day after day after day multiple times per day. You wouldn’t even leave the pattern, some days.

But someone else would be paying for the airplane.

It’s not a big deal. After 1000 hours you won’t care where you land or take off or how often.

 

[jaysuwan]

After 1000 hours you won’t care where you land or take off or how often

haha I hear you. Thing about being CFI is yes, someone is paying for me to get hours but I would be in the same place taking off and landing for the majority of time. That's why I want to keep the plane so I can just pick up and leave for a day when I get bored. 1 hour leg would probably be enough. but 2 is (almost)always better


So with the Mogas is there a downside to it? seems too good to be true. maybe I'm skeptical lol. But there must be a reason not everyone do it.

 

[chemgeek]

Of course, you could just postpone buying your time builder until you have your certificate. By then, you will know more about small aircraft performance and limitations. Most 2-seaters will not be great IFR trainers, if for no other reason that not many are well equipped for IFR.

 

[jaysuwan]

if for no other reason that not many are well equipped for IFR.

I know this is not the only reason. But if it is, there shouldn't be a problem with me making it ifr. If I find a decent plane for 15k(which I've seen quite a few but maybe a little more than that) I could probably get a nice panel and equipment install there. only thing is it would eat up the weight too much(maybe)

 

[denverpilot]

I know this is not the only reason. But if it is, there shouldn't be a problem with me making it ifr. If I find a decent plane for 15k(which I've seen quite a few but maybe a little more than that) I could probably get a nice panel and equipment install there. only thing is it would eat up the weight too much(maybe)

Oh man, you haven’t seen avionics prices or how much money an owner loses installing them and then selling yet, have you?

Rule of thumb is they lose 50% of their monetary value the day they’re installed. And good IFR avionics will run you more than you’re spending on the entire airplane, unless you’re going non-WAAS GPS and non-2020 ADS-B compliant transponder.

If you’re buying an airplane always buy it with the panel you want to fly in it.

We put over $20,000 into our 182 panel to get a single WAAS GPS, ADS-B IN/OUT transponder, and the labor to move everything around and rewire it all, new breakers, etc.

Weight is not a problem. None of this stuff weighs anything. We gained a pound and a half when all was said and done on paper.

 

[jaysuwan]

Weight is not a problem. None of this stuff weighs anything. We gained a pound and a half when all was said and done on paper.

That's nice. And yes I know I'm throwing my money away. Thing about this is I don't have to do them right away or all at once. I can use the plane to finish up my ppl and then add what I need. most of them comes with 1 com. So I only need 1 nav com with glide slope(i know its not required) adsb can be done next year. So I can install a little bit as I go. If I buy the plane with full ifr pannel they tend to go over my budget and they comes with coffee grinder. With all said and done. If the plane treat me well enough and I plan on keeping it I don't mind making it rain on the plane a little bit haha.