Looking for a fixed gear plane in good condition... not having much luck

[DavidH]

I've been scouring Trade-A-Plane and Barnstormers looking for a good plane to finish my PPL in for the last few months. Most of what I have seen on those sites have sat on the market for an extended amount of time with high-time engines and extremely poor avionics. What am I missing? I can't seem to get an idea of what the market actually is.

I've been reading through the forum and it looks like several have found good luck in securing a plane through word-of-mouth. The message boards at the FBO's I've been around have been relatively bare.

The rentals in my area aren't in very good condition and scheduling seems to be nearly impossible.

Any advice on where I should be looking?

David

 

[Mason]

The best airplanes never make it to the advertising.

Put the word out with your CFI, your FBO, any flying friends you have. Post on bulletin boards at airports. Ask around.

 

[SmashTime]

Well i have a reliable PA-28 235 that I'm in the process of prepping for sale. It's not loaded with avionics but it is IFR capable. It's a high time engine but compressions and oil anayalsis are all good. It won't cost you an arm and leg either. Send me your email if your interested.

 

[Graueradler]

Too bad - I already sold mine.

 

[poadeleted21]

Good planes don't say for sale long. keep looking. Searching for a year isn't uncommon. There's a lot of junk out there, be careful.

 

[poadeleted20]

What sort of plane are you looking for?

 

[DavidH]

Four seats would be ideal. A Cherokee 140/160 would likely fit 85% of what I am looking for. A Cherokee 180 would likely serve most needs I have for the next few years.

A C150 would get me through PPL... but I would likely want additional capability soon after. C172's seem to be high-time planes and are usually priced higher than comparable Pipers.

Musketeers seem to be priced lower than many others and in reasonable condition, but I'm a little afraid of high maintenance costs associated with Beech (at least that's what I have read... that may not be correct).

Grumman's seem to have a following from those that own them. I don't know what the upkeep would be as compared to some of the others. The plane will likely be kept under a shade-port for at least a few months.

Short List:
* No Corrosion
* Good Engine (or priced as run-out... that seems to be a tough one)
* Standard T Panel preferred
* Decent Avionics
* Four Seats preferred

 

[wby0nder]

My very nice 150 is in the classifieds here. Still flying it occasionally but got a mooney. If you can settle for two seats you would be very happy with this 150

 

[poadeleted21]

Four seats would be ideal. A Cherokee 140/160 would likely fit 85% of what I am looking for. A Cherokee 180 would likely serve most needs I have for the next few years.

A C150 would get me through PPL... but I would likely want additional capability soon after. C172's seem to be high-time planes and are usually priced higher than comparable Pipers.

Musketeers seem to be priced lower than many others and in reasonable condition, but I'm a little afraid of high maintenance costs associated with Beech (at least that's what I have read... that may not be correct).

Grumman's seem to have a following from those that own them. I don't know what the upkeep would be as compared to some of the others. The plane will likely be kept under a shade-port for at least a few months.

Short List:
* No Corrosion
* Good Engine (or priced as run-out... that seems to be a tough one)
* Standard T Panel preferred
* Decent Avionics
* Four Seats preferred

Beech mx won't be any different than the other brands. I personally wouldn't buy a musketeer. They're not fast, and the resell on them isn't that great. But they're built well and comfy. If you wanna go slow in comfort, get one. Stay away from the ones with the odd engine though.

Sounds like you need a Cherokee.

I've owned a Cherokee and a Bo. I've only made 1 flight in the Bonanza that the Cherokee wouldn't make due to useful load. 90% of my flights could have been done in a Cessna 150.

 

[rbridges]

Four seats would be ideal. A Cherokee 140/160 would likely fit 85% of what I am looking for. A Cherokee 180 would likely serve most needs I have for the next few years.

A C150 would get me through PPL... but I would likely want additional capability soon after. C172's seem to be high-time planes and are usually priced higher than comparable Pipers.

Musketeers seem to be priced lower than many others and in reasonable condition, but I'm a little afraid of high maintenance costs associated with Beech (at least that's what I have read... that may not be correct).

Grumman's seem to have a following from those that own them. I don't know what the upkeep would be as compared to some of the others. The plane will likely be kept under a shade-port for at least a few months.

Short List:
* No Corrosion
* Good Engine (or priced as run-out... that seems to be a tough one)
* Standard T Panel preferred
* Decent Avionics
* Four Seats preferred

If you think a cherokee 180 fits your needs, it's a great plane. more flexibility than the 140.

 

[Tom-D]

Many times the buyer has new expectations of the used aircraft in their price range. Leaving all aircraft in their price range as over priced junk.

 

[N747JB]

What is your price range? Keep in mind most old airplanes are......old. everyone would love to find that super clean mid-70's 172 with a Garmin 530W and a 400 hour engine for $25-30K. All airplanes are compromises, when they are designed and built they compromise, when they are sold used you have to compromise between $$$, times, equipment and condition.
Look for something with a mid-time engine and avionics you can live with, so you don't bust your budget in the panel in the first year.

 

[poadeleted20]

Four seats would be ideal. A Cherokee 140/160 would likely fit 85% of what I am looking for. A Cherokee 180 would likely serve most needs I have for the next few years.

So you're looking for a simple, fixed-gear single in the 150-180HP range. Only question is whether you need the extra payload that a 180HP engine gives you over the 150-160HP versions.

Musketeers seem to be priced lower than many others and in reasonable condition, but I'm a little afraid of high maintenance costs associated with Beech (at least that's what I have read... that may not be correct).

It is a general belief that Beech parts are more expensive the Piper/Cessna/Grumman. Never having owned or worked much with them, I can't say for sure.

Grumman's seem to have a following from those that own them. I don't know what the upkeep would be as compared to some of the others.

Their construction is a little simpler than Cessna/Piper, so maintenance could be a shade cheaper, but based on 37 years of owning Grumman, I'd say not significantly so. If you're looking for a good Grumman, I'd suggest starting with the web site of the AYA, the Grumman owner's group. Go to http://www.aya.org/ and look under Notams. There have also been a couple listed recently on the Grumman Gang email list (not associated with the AYA).

Short List:
* No Corrosion
* Good Engine (or priced as run-out... that seems to be a tough one)
* Standard T Panel preferred
* Decent Avionics
* Four Seats preferred

As noted above, any of the following should do you, but you should decide if you want the O-320 engine version or larger O-360 engine version, and note that the O-320 versions are generally significantly cheaper to buy but have virtually the same long-term ownership costs.

• Beech 19/23 Sport/Sundowner
• Cessna 172/177
• Piper PA28
• Grumman AA-5/5A/5B Traveler/Cheetah/Tiger

 

[Fearless Tower]

It is a general belief that Beech parts are more expensive the Piper/Cessna/Grumman. Never having owned or worked much with them, I can't say for sure.

I own a Beech and a Cessna, my dad owns a Piper.

They are all about the same, although I think Cessna parts tend to be a little bit higher.

 

[Henning]

I've been scouring Trade-A-Plane and Barnstormers looking for a good plane to finish my PPL in for the last few months. Most of what I have seen on those sites have sat on the market for an extended amount of time with high-time engines and extremely poor avionics. What am I missing? I can't seem to get an idea of what the market actually is.

I've been reading through the forum and it looks like several have found good luck in securing a plane through word-of-mouth. The message boards at the FBO's I've been around have been relatively bare.

The rentals in my area aren't in very good condition and scheduling seems to be nearly impossible.

Any advice on where I should be looking?

David

You should be looking in the ads with a higher price point. When you for cheap prices, you find cheap ****.

 

[Henning]

I own a Beech and a Cessna, my dad owns a Piper.

They are all about the same, although I think Cessna parts tend to be a little bit higher.

Yep, and now that Cessna and Beech are the same company, I doubt that changes much. It was about 10 years ago when the Cessna parts list jumped their prices. I remember my boss picked up a bunch of stringers and frames for a 185 we were bringing back from a crash and he showed me where he price had tripled from the last price.

 

[PilotRPI]

I'm in the same boat. There's a lot of garbage out there. As long as it does >100mph, and can fit two folding bicycles, I'm good. So I'd be happy with a 150 or a cherokee.

Most planes I call about have 300 hours on the engine, which was overhauled in 1995. Many of the others need something big, like an overhaul, paint, etc, and are not priced accordingly. I understand financially its a losing proposition, but I don't want to walk into losing money immediately.

I finally found something that might work. The seller was thrilled to hear I wasn't a broker, or someone literally offering half his price. We'll see where it goes. Most everything lately seems to be a field overhaul as well. So need to check into it carefully.

 

[Henning]

I'm in the same boat. There's a lot of garbage out there. As long as it does >100mph, and can fit two folding bicycles, I'm good. So I'd be happy with a 150 or a cherokee.

Most planes I call about have 300 hours on the engine, which was overhauled in 1995. Many of the others need something big, like an overhaul, paint, etc, and are not priced accordingly. I understand financially its a losing proposition, but I don't want to walk into losing money immediately.

I finally found something that might work. The seller was thrilled to hear I wasn't a broker, or someone literally offering half his price. We'll see where it goes. Most everything lately seems to be a field overhaul as well. So need to check into it carefully.

I can provide you a next to new C-150 for $70,000, are you interested?

 

[zulufox]

Do you have a location preference and price range?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[bnt83]

Yep, and now that Cessna and Beech are the same company, I doubt that changes much. It was about 10 years ago when the Cessna parts list jumped their prices. I remember my boss picked up a bunch of stringers and frames for a 185 we were bringing back from a crash and he showed me where he price had tripled from the last price.

I think their pricing is now based on website searches. The more searches for a particular part # the more they jack up the price.

Thankfully McFarlane has their own PMA wear items that covers a lot of stuff.

 

[Henning]

I think their pricing is now based on website searches. The more searches for a particular part # the more they jack up the price.

Thankfully McFarlane has their own PMA wear items that covers a lot of stuff.

The only thing Al ever bought from Cessna or whomever direct was pressed or extruded airframe parts not available anywhere else. Pretty much everything else we'd make in house out of raw stock, salvage, or aftermarket.

 

[PilotRPI]

Think I'll pass on the unimaginable reimagined C-150/152. Thanks though! I'd rather pay 1/3 the price for something in really nice shape.

 

[Henning]

Think I'll pass on the unimaginable reimagined C-150/152. Thanks though! I'd rather pay 1/3 the price for something in really nice shape.

You are looking for a unicorn. You can have one in really nice shape for half that, bit not a third. For a third you get crap. There was a really nice 150 for sale here a while back at $30k, and that's what a nice one is worth. If you are looking at the $20k ones they will be well worn, if you are looking at the $15k and less ones, you're looking at junk.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Finding a good airplane can't be as hard as some folks here make it out to be.

 

[Henning]

Finding a good airplane can't be as hard as some folks here make it out to be.

It's not, finding a good airplane is easy as long as you aren't bottom feeding prices. The top and bottom quality of the market on a model is usually 300% in difference.

 

[N747JB]

Finding a good airplane can't be as hard as some folks here make it out to be.

My dad always says it's much easier to buy an airplane/boat than it is to sell one!
Lot's of overpriced planes on the market, but also people with very high expectations fueled by the stories of the guy who knew a guy that bought a really nice 182 for $40K! I feel when buying you have to study the market, see what is selling and what is not, determine what you think is a good deal and make a move. Of course it has to pass a pre-buy, but offering 25% less on every airplane listed isn't smart, some are listed at a great price and you just need to jump before someone else does. Others aren't worth 50% of the asking price, just skip those. I always make a list of every airplane that interests me, asking price, times, equipment etc. I try to compare the +/- of each one to determine what's most important to me. They almost all need something!

 

[poadeleted21]

Finding a good airplane can't be as hard as some folks here make it out to be.

Took me 6-8 months to purchase the 2 times I've done so.

 

[poadeleted21]

It's not, finding a good airplane is easy as long as you aren't bottom feeding prices. The top and bottom quality of the market on a model is usually 300% in difference.

A lot of sellers are kidding themselves about the market.

If it doesn't sell in 3 months, it's overpriced.

 

[PilotRPI]

1/3 of $70k is mid-20s. I've seen repainted ones with new overhauls from a reputable shop and decent avionics for $30k, just wasn't ready to buy then. Can't imagine spending over 30k for a C150, unless you want a glass panel and an O-320 I guess.

I'm looking in the mid 20s. Don't need brand new paint, and I'd actually rather have a couple hundred hours on an engine. I'm talking to a couple people with C150s in the mid 20s that appear great. Gotta go see for myself.

The sellers with decent planes are just as frustrated as the serious buyers. They have morons telling them they can get a C150 for 12k and offering half.

I missed out on a C140 listed for 29k that was damn near everything I wanted. Just came a month earlier than I was ready. It went against my rule of "no green planes" but was great in every other way.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Took me 6-8 months to purchase the 2 times I've done so.

Was that intentional on your part? In other words, was that your expected timeline and what were you buying?

6-8 months seems excessive to me unless you are shopping for something relatively rare/very specific model/year

 

[Henning]

A lot of sellers are kidding themselves about the market.

If it doesn't sell in 3 months, it's overpriced.

That is the buyer's perspective. When one looks at the seller's perspective of having $130k in a plane 'the market' says will move at $70k, then the seller views the market as under valued and takes the plane off the market or holds out for their price. What has happened in the recent years where buyers would only buy at what desperate people would accept is that they also created a market where mostly junk is for sale since the guys with nice planes have used their extra value and spent the bare minimum dollar they could while they did so, if you're only going to get $70k for it, might as well make it worth $70k. Or even worse, they leave the plane sit.

 

[Fearless Tower]

A lot of sellers are kidding themselves about the market.



If it doesn't sell in 3 months, it's overpriced.

That is true, but my strategy is to avoid the ridiculous adds/way overpriced ones as well as the rock bottom give away planes. I concentrate on the reasonable sector excepting that the seller is probably asking slightly more than they are willing to take. If the airplane meets my criteria, I make a reasonable/very fair offer and I have never had a problem with coming to an agreement.

But, I don't ask for the moon and the stars any more than I expect to give the same to an unrealistic seller.

 

[poadeleted21]

That is the buyer's perspective. When one looks at the seller's perspective of having $130k in a plane 'the market' says will move at $70k, then the seller views the market as under valued and takes the plane off the market or holds out for their price. What has happened in the recent years where buyers would only buy at what desperate people would accept is that they also created a market where mostly junk is for sale since the guys with nice planes have used their extra value and spent the bare minimum dollar they could while they did so, if you're only going to get $70k for it, might as well make it worth $70k. Or even worse, they leave the plane sit.

If you're a seller basing the price on what you have in it. That's step number one for overpricing the plane and pretty much guaranteeing yourself that it's not going to sell.

I've put $20K into my bonanza over the past couple of years, I doubt I'd recoup any of it in a sale. Might make it sell faster, that's about it.

I just bought a patch of property for 85K it was purchased for $140K 8 years ago.
The seller had improved the property since buying it and turned down a $140K offer on it when it first went back on the market(her husband died shortly after purchasing it and they never built the house), because of what she had in it.

 

[poadeleted21]

Was that intentional on your part? In other words, was that your expected timeline and what were you buying?

6-8 months seems excessive to me unless you are shopping for something relatively rare/very specific model/year

I wanted a /G Bonanza. N or better. At least a straight 430 in it with a decent autopilot and low time engine. Needed it in the $70K range. Wound up getting one much nicer than my must haves in my price range. I had to hold out for a while to find it. There was one at my airport not nearly as nice as mine. He wanted 95K, I assume he's still got the for sale sign hanging on it. He'll tell you all about how much money he's losing on it and what he has in it.

Guy I got mine from also had a nice V35, was a banker, knew the market and knew what it would move for in just a few months. He knew he'd be paying upkeep on it and risk it having the reputation of having been on barnstormers for an eternity. It was just a business deal for him.

I would also do a perspective buyer well to sit and watch the for sale sites a few months and see what's moving and what's sitting to get an idea about the market.

 

[Henning]

If you're a seller basing the price on what you have in it. That's step number one for overpricing the plane and pretty much guaranteeing yourself that it's not going to sell.

I've put $20K into my bonanza over the past couple of years, I doubt I'd recoup any of it in a sale. Might make it sell faster, that's about it.

As I said, it's a matter of perspective. I'm not saying some people aren't delusional about it, just pointing out it is the mechanism that removes a lot of the good planes from the market until they to represent the market condition and value.

 

[JoseCuervo]

To the OP: Every time you drive past an airport, swing in and look at the bulletin board, talk to the mechanics, and maybe an older, full time CFI/coffee pot drainer.

Ask them if they know about any Cherokee 180's or a 172. They sometimes know of somebody who is ready to sell.

 

[Tom-D]

I've been scouring Trade-A-Plane and Barnstormers looking for a good plane to finish my PPL in for the last few months. Most of what I have seen on those sites have sat on the market for an extended amount of time with high-time engines and extremely poor avionics. What am I missing? I can't seem to get an idea of what the market actually is.

I've been reading through the forum and it looks like several have found good luck in securing a plane through word-of-mouth. The message boards at the FBO's I've been around have been relatively bare.

The rentals in my area aren't in very good condition and scheduling seems to be nearly impossible.

Any advice on where I should be looking?

David

Here is one close to you that can be bought for $10K, yes it has a high time C-145, but at this price so what?
It will do every thing you required in your post. 1-828-406-6459 talk to Tony.

 

[DavidH]

As I said, it's a matter of perspective. I'm not saying some people aren't delusional about it, just pointing out it is the mechanism that removes a lot of the good planes from the market until they to represent the market condition and value.

Is the answer to let the plane sit and time out an engine by not being run... and then wonder why they can't fetch the going premium for a low or mid-time engine once the market catches up? The decision was made to sit on the plane and they now have a engine that was overhauled in the 80's or 90's (if that recent).

Should the buyer take the risk in this case and pay the going premium?

 

[Henning]

Is the answer to let the plane sit and time out an engine by not being run... and then wonder why they can't fetch the going premium for a low or mid-time engine once the market catches up? The decision was made to sit on the plane and they now have a engine that was overhauled in the 80's or 90's (if that recent).

Should the buyer take the risk in this case and pay the going premium?

They can do what they want, the damage to the market that greed has wrought has been done and hundreds of premium planes are no longer such, therefor no longer available to the market. Shortsighted and greedy buyers turned the older plane market into a cesspool. Now there are no good planes to buy anymore at reasonable value and you either have a choice between cheap **** and next to new with next to new pricing. The people buying the steam panel Cirrus models for <$150k thinking they are getting a deal had better be figuring that they will never be able to sell that plane.

 

[ahkahn]

They can do what they want, the damage to the market that greed has wrought has been done and hundreds of premium planes are no longer such, therefor no longer available to the market. Shortsighted and greedy buyers turned the older plane market into a cesspool. Now there are no good planes to buy anymore at reasonable value and you either have a choice between cheap **** and next to new with next to new pricing. The people buying the steam panel Cirrus models for <$150k thinking they are getting a deal had better be figuring that they will never be able to sell that plane.

The market adjusts accordingly. I roll my eyes when I see the liberal use of the word "greed". That word usually tells me that someone feels either jealous or taken advantage of because they didn't do their homework.

The market is strictly a supply and demand model. If there is a diminished demand for single engine steam gauge planes, the price will drop. If there is a hot market for turbo-props, the demand is great and the price will rise. It's really a simple concept once you remove emotion from it. It has always intrigued me how people get emotionally attached to houses, airplanes, etc. and it clouds their business judgement.