Looking at IFR aircraft - question on avionics

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tylerdurden4543

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tylerdurden4543
Hi all,

I'm looking at acquiring a 1998 172SP (TT:3500 SMOH: 1490) for my IFR training and have identified some potential issues. Wanted to get your thoughts on them and see if anyone had any insights into pricing considerations.

Accident: The plane was in an accident last year. Pilot left runway on landing and struck a taxiway sign. Left main landing gear collapsed and the left horizontal stabilizer was substantially damaged -- both were completely replaced (AC is used for flight training at reputable outfit so I'm confident in the repairs) and has since flown without issue. I'm thinking 10-15% price discount off list for damage.
GPS: Currently has a KLN89B but I'd like to upgrade to KLN94B. Looks like I can get one used for $6000 - any idea on installation costs?
HSI: The AC does not have an HSI, just two VORs and a nonslaved DG. Any ideas on costs for a slaved HSI and installation costs?
Autopilot trim servo: It seems these fail every once in a while. Looks to be a $2,500 repair -- any idea how often?

Owners is looking for $85k. Anyone know the blue book?

Thoughts?

Thanks!
Tyler
 
tylerdurden4543 said:
Hi all,

I'm looking at acquiring a 1998 172SP (TT:3500 SMOH: 1490) for my IFR training and have identified some potential issues. Wanted to get your thoughts on them and see if anyone had any insights into pricing considerations.

Accident: The plane was in an accident last year. Pilot left runway on landing and struck a taxiway sign. Left main landing gear collapsed and the left horizontal stabilizer was substantially damaged -- both were completely replaced (AC is used for flight training at reputable outfit so I'm confident in the repairs) and has since flown without issue. I'm thinking 10-15% price discount off list for damage.
GPS: Currently has a KLN89B but I'd like to upgrade to KLN94B. Looks like I can get one used for $6000 - any idea on installation costs?
HSI: The AC does not have an HSI, just two VORs and a nonslaved DG. Any ideas on costs for a slaved HSI and installation costs?
Autopilot trim servo: It seems these fail every once in a while. Looks to be a $2,500 repair -- any idea how often?

Owners is looking for $85k. Anyone know the blue book?
Click to expand...

On the GPS, just plan for a used 430W. There's not much reason to go with a 94 even though it is just a slide in replacement of the 89B (IIRC).

On the HSI, forgetaboutit. Get an Aspen installed for about the same cost...
 
Clark1961 said:
On the GPS, just plan for a used 430W. There's not much reason to go with a 94 even though it is just a slide in replacement of the 89B (IIRC).

On the HSI, forgetaboutit. Get an Aspen installed for about the same cost...
Click to expand...

If'n it were me and this aircraft, I would also be considering the above. Especially the Aspen. That unit offers a huge amount of utility for the panel space it occupies.
 
tylerdurden4543 said:
Owners is looking for $85k. Anyone know the blue book?
Click to expand...

If you sign up for Trade-a-Plane subscription, they offer a valuation tool that permits you to plug in the various details about the aircraft and come up with a decent "off the cuff" valuation.

AOPA offers vRef through their site.

But $85k for a 1998 C172SP with those times isn't that bad from what I've seen over the past year (I've been following that model on the various sale sites).

As always, get a really thorough pre-buy inspection done by someone that you hired
 
was a prop strike involved when the left main collapsed?
 
Is an HSI required for IFR training?

1490 SMOH on the engine? Is that a 2000 hour TBO engine? You might want to just plan on doing the engine real soon.

$85,000? really? Are people really paying that much for used 172's with nearly runout engines that have been (ab)used in flight training?
 
tylerdurden4543 said:
GPS: Currently has a KLN89B but I'd like to upgrade to KLN94B. Looks like I can get one used for $6000 - any idea on installation costs?
Click to expand...
Minimal -- it's paperwork only because the 94 is a slide-in replacement for the 89B. Ask an avionics shop for a quote for that, but it shouldn't be more than a couple of hundred. BTW, $6K for a used KLN94 sounds pretty steep; IIRC, mine was $4K new in the box (installation extra) back in 2001. Also, I don't think there's any such thing as a KLN94B, just the original KLN94.

HSI: The AC does not have an HSI, just two VORs and a nonslaved DG. Any ideas on costs for a slaved HSI and installation costs?
Click to expand...
Upwards of $5K, probably well upwards, maybe as much as $10K. And I agree with those suggesting the Aspen instead, and I believe it interfaces with the KLN94 as well as the Garmin products for which it was optimized.
 
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I fly with an 89b and am happy with it. When it finally dies I'll replace it with a KLN-94, which will cost way less than $6000.

Disregard the advice to replace your King installation with a Garmin. That's simply unnecessary expense. Both King and Garmin follow the same TSO's and so work about the same. The 94 improves the UI over the 89b a lot, but I would stick with the 89b for now in any case.

There is no reason to sink $12000 for a Garmin, or even $2000 for a KLN94 into a plane that already has a perfectly good IFR GPS. Especially when you can use WingX or Foreflight to augment the rudimentary stick map display on the 89b.

Likewise, this airplane does NOT need a slaved HSI! At 172 speeds you'll do fine with the basic DG. [Edited to add: A DG bug is invaluable for IFR flight. If your DG doesn't have one, it's worth the money to add, even if you can't afford an autopilot!]

If you have the money buy an Aspen, but if you are on any kind of a budget just do like tens of thousands of other pilots have done: Get your instrument rating in your basic round dial 172. Once you have the rating you'll know what's important and what's not.

The best investment you can make in this airplane is an STEC autopilot! That'll help you WAY more than an HSI or Garmin!
 
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JimNtexas said:
There is no reason to sink ... $2000 for a KLN94 into a plane that already has a perfectly good IFR GPS.
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Having flown with and trained folks on both the 89B and 94, I'd have to disagree. The 94 has additional functionality, a much more readable screen, and is a lot easier to use. For many folks, that might be worth the cost.
 
Why not buy an older 172 with better avionics.

We've got less than 85 in my 66 G model, it has a lycoming O360 conversion, G530W, GTX330, G340 Audio panel, Kx155 (with second glideslope) and a JPI 700w/ FF and a totalizer hooked up to the 530.

It also has lower TTAF and SMOH.
 
$85K for an airframe that's had serious damage, avionics that need upgrading, and an engine that's closing on TBO. Does phrasing it that way help you? :)

I'd walk and look at the PILES of other Skyhawks out there in better condition and better value for the dollar. If all you want is a Skyhawk. $85K will buy more airplane than that, these days.

But... the statement that worries me is "it's used for flight training by a reputable outfit ... so the repair was good"... I dare-say, only you and your paid mechanic should determine that by taking it apart and inspecting it yourself.

The rest of the comments are fine... don't bother with the King, toss the HSI in the garbage, and no I don't know the Blue Book...

But I do know that in this market you can afford to be a lot more picky if you're planning on keeping it for a while.
 
Tyler,

Book retail adjusted for airframe and engine time is ~79.5, wholesale is ~63.5.

Damage discount is not included in the above.
 
A lot of good advice here.

I would be hesitant to spend any amount of a plane and especially a trainer that was used for a flight school. There are a huge number of skyhawks available, and if I remember correctly, when I was looking for my plane a year and a half ago, for what you are spending you could get a much much better skyhawk. I would search the net, there a number of good sites out there to see what is available in your price range before settling on anyone plane.

What I do know is if you jump into it without testing the waters first, you may find you were able to afford the plane, but not afford to fly it. Before you buy whatever plane you buy make sure you have done due dilligence to convince yourself not to buy that plane, and only after you cannot convince yourself and are 100% certain it is the right plane, should you buy it.

Good luck, and if your experience is anything like mine, you will love having your own plane.

Doug
 
If your goal is a plane to do the instrument with you can spend 1/4 the amount for a decent C150. A few months ago I got a 66 C150 to do my instrument with. Never been a flight school trainer, 400+ SMOH (first overhaul) 2 VORs one with glideslope, minimal but totally adequate for the training and the checkride. Will spend less on gas during the training too!
 
I agree with most of what everyone else has posted. But if you're interested in buying a plane not just to TRAIN for your instrument but actually to FLY in the system after getting the rating, thinking about a KLN94 or really ANY kind of a GPS upgrade that isn't WAAS-capable doesn't make a lot of sense to me. With the VOR infrastructure on track to be gutted in the near future over large areas of the country, I would want to be equipped to use GPS as "sole source" without any need (legally, anyway) for enroute ground based navigation. I would either keep the 89B or replace it with a 430W, 530W, or even a 750 (or a 480, if you can find one for sale -- they're apparently hard to come by).

It's usually more cost effective, though, to buy the panel you want already installed in the airplane. That's what I did. Well, I bought the panel and the zero time engine. The airframe was bundled in for free. ;)
 
denverpilot said:
I'd walk and look at the PILES of other Skyhawks out there in better condition and better value for the dollar. If all you want is a Skyhawk. $85K will buy more airplane than that, these days.
Click to expand...

Heck, for 85 I'd think about selling the 'kota - Aspen, 430W, two-axis autopilot with spare trim servo...
 
DavidWhite said:
Why not buy an older 172 with better avionics.
Click to expand...

And there you have it!


You can find a lighter 172, with a similar 180hp engine (or better) conversion, with better avionics, with LESS hours, for LESS money!!

Remember these aren't like used (see used-up) cars, the year mean nothing as they are maintained strictly (unlike cars).

Buying a ex-trainer is a fools proposition as well, they are ridden hard and put away wet, even if you get one owned by a great FBO, at best it's like buying a used cop car, maintained very well, but still had a chit ridden out of it.

Find a nice older cessna (172, 182, etc) with a 430W and a King HSI, the HSI isnt NEEDED for IFR training (did all mine with just 2 VORs), also the VORs aint going anywhere, the GPS system needs a fallback and thats VORs.

Be sure to order the offical records before your independent prebuy.

http://www.faa.gov/licenses_certifi...on/aircraft_registry/copies_aircraft_records/
 
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Look on Controller.com. Multiple older 172s with 180 hp engines with much lower times AND 430 already installed for less money...some much less (like $20K less!) the savings could pay for several instrument ratings.
 
Thanks everyone for the great insights, feedback and thought-provoking questions. I think I'll pass on this specific AC for now...
 
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