Looking at GA, Do I have it all wrong?

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Scoobysmak

Filing Flight Plan
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Scoobysmak
Well thanks for having me. After doing tons of research and probably more dreaming I need would like some honest opinions from people that are currently in general aviation.

About me: I am currently a ground walker and have not even looked into flight schools to get a PPL. If I did get a PPL I would try and obtain IFR since I would not like weather to hold me back (of course sometimes the weather can ground anyone/any plane). I would eventually like to own my own aircraft but would like to think I have all the cost narrowed down but I am sure there is something I will leave out. I would prefer to buy a plane that I want to keep for a long time as well but there are a few complications it seems to do this.

As of this moment my flying would be done for my enjoyment and travel. This past Thanksgiving weekend I drove to relatives homes and spent about 30 hours total in the car. Needless to say the family was worn out by the time Sunday night came around. The wife and kid helped put everything away and went to bed. I calculated it and I would have only spent around 8-9 hours in the air for the entire trip with 185 kt GS with no wind. Fuel would have been more costly but I will assume a hanger or tie-down fee would have been way cheaper than the hotels I paid for enroute. I would have saved time and my sanity as well. The other fact to owning my own aircraft is TSA will not get the chance to "fondle" me as much.

I have the possibility that once a month I will need to travel 450 Nmile for bussiness. I can schedule for good weather but will have to fly all 12 months of the year. These trips for bussiness currently would be from middle TN to south/mid FL. My vacation travels I expect to take me normally in the lower 48 but Alaska and depending on the plane might try an England experience.

I have been told the best way to get your PPL is purchase a 150 or similar trainer and contact a CFI. You can get "burned" if the plane you purchase needs more repairs to make it flight worthy than what might have been found on a pre-buy. Overall the limiting time factor is your CFI schedule and yours. After you have your PPL then load up the hours and train and get more experince. Once you get your VFR then find another plane if yours is not IFR worthy. I guess this might be the norm but hate to buy something I know I won't keep.

I would love to own a plane that got 200kts on 8 gph and had 1500 lbs of useful load. Needless to say that plane doesn't exist or its way above my budget. I will normally fly either alone if on bussiness but if on vaction the family would be along for the flight. If its a family event I would prefer to have 750 lbs in usefull load plus fuel for a 4 hr flight (I doubt the wife could make it much further anyway). The trend here seemed to be efficency while flying fast, this lead me to Mooney's. I like the J model but really like the K model for its ablity to fly above weather if needed. Some other advantages to this are smoother air, better tail wind (hopefully tailwind), and higher speeds. The disadvantage is wearing O2 above 12,500. I don't know if the family would like it but it wouldn't bother me. The other disadvantage is higher maint cost due to turbo/turbo-nomalizer.

The other option I looked at was the Vans RV-10. This would give lower annuals and probably lower insurance cost since it doesn't have retracts. I would really love it deltahawk actually produced its diesel engine they have been working on for decades at this point. Not sure if deltahawk will produce an STC for a Mooney but I would have to find a plane with a worn out engine. The reason for me to like the diesel is I know fuel will be around and sold everywhere. I am not sure what 100LL will be in ten years, maybe a work around but something tells me it won't be very cheap.

If I decied to take the GA opportunity I would probably spend about 225-275k on a plane (not a trainer one I would keep). I would expect to spend about 15k getting my PPL with IFR. Annual cost will depend more on the plane but hanger fees will probably be the same for all unless it doesn't fit in a normal hanger (not likely on my budget). Say $300 a month for hanger fees, $2000-$3000 for an annual if nothing is wrong. If something needs fixed prepair for the bill. At first insurance will be higher but say $2500 a year for ball park figure. Not sure how much a medical will cost, if the new bill passes then might make this a one time event. I would expect to give a rough estimate of $100 per hour to fly until I have built up enough emergency funds to support an engine overhaul 3x over. Is there something I am overlooking in my cost estimate, my only thoughts might be some form of registration renewal but have not found this anywhere, does this depend on the state if I need to factor this in.

I can reduce this some if I elect the RV-10 route, the annual will be way less. Insurance can be a moving target so I won't really adjust this number much but probably a bit lower.

Is there any advantage to owning a certified aircraft Vs building a kit besides being allowed to fly in Japan and one other country (can't remember it). I probably would never try to be an airplane taxi but I could see maybe some sort of charity flying (think flight for paws comes to mind, think that is the name). Are there any other aircraft you would look at in my shoes. I looked briefly at the piper PA-24-260TC but didn't even find any for sale. Which brings up another question, flying from TN to FL would a turbo even help me. I tried to look at the winds aloft to see but really didn't get a handle on it and better to ask someone that routinely flies this. About the only thing I am sure of is if I flew across the rockies I would be thankful I had it.

I know this was a full post of questions and most of it probably would be answered if I had my PPL but since I don't just getting a feel for it. If you have any questions to make suggestions let me know.

Thanks for reading.
 
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All I can tell you is our k model can't do 750lbs plus 4 hours of fuel. Not even close.
 
I would adjust the budget to where you're spending $150-200k on the airplane and reserve the rest for maintenance. $3k annual is entirely reasonable(again depending on airplane) but that doesn't include the oil changes or random high dollar repairs and things that will inevitably happen.

Insurance isn't usually that bad even for low time pilots. Depends on your hull coverage and what type of aircraft but I'm guessing you'll be in the $1-2k/year range.

Others will probably have better ideas on aircraft but the usual suspects coming to mind are the Cirrus SR22, Bonanzas, maybe a 182T or turbo-arrow.
 
For an idea on how much it costs go look at what rentals cost. Owning is likely to be somewhere near that figure.
 
PeeGee said:
All I can tell you is our k model can't do 750lbs plus 4 hours of fuel. Not even close.
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I am not sure fuel burn to calculate the amount of fuel needed for 4 hours but some 252's got an encore conversion that gave 1050lbs useful load. That would be somewhere around 50 gallons of fuel if I had 750 lbs of people and luggage. Maybe this bird is too specific to find like the PA-24-260TC I mentioned before.

I will say that doing the math with 50 gal burning 13 gals an hour (this is probably not realistic) only got me 3.8 hours with no reserves. I would make maybe 2 hour legs at best it seems.
 
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Full tanks on a Comanche with tip tanks gives you 6+ hours of fuel and 700lbs of payload. Short fill it a little bit and you easily have your 4 hours and 750lbs of payload at 150+kts. Roomier than Mooneys by a long shot too.

1250 useful load.

I've flown mine non stop from Michigan to Florida at 11.4gph at 9,000ft
 
Your post is just too long to read....
Good luck with whatever it is you are wanting.
 
Scoobysmak said:
I am not sure fuel burn to calculate the amount of fuel needed for 4 hours but some 252's got an encore conversion that gave 1050lbs useful load. That would be somewhere around 50 gallons of fuel if I had 750 lbs of people and luggage. Maybe this bird is too specific to find like the PA-24-260TC I mentioned before.

I will say that doing the math with 50 gal burning 13 gals an hour (this is probably not realistic) only got me 3.8 hours with no reserves. I would make maybe 2 hour legs at best it seems.
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the encore is only one of three "k models" and is 220hp and has a higher gross, we have a little under 900 useful in a non-encore. I believe the encore gets about 230lbs more gross.
 
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LT4247 said:
Your post is just too long to read....
Good luck with whatever it is you are wanting.
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Step back. I'm the forum prick around here and that was too much...
 
Investigate fractional ownership. (net Jet)

Your required 185k ground speed at 8 GPH is not realistic.

With your 200k budget, plus your 15 k training you can afford a great motorhome.

Just think, no more need to be De-iced capable, no extra training or licensing, no more sleeping in some one else's bed. no more hotel bills.
http://www.rvtrader.com/listing/2007-Newmar-Essex-115166254
 
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Anyway has the OP even done a discovery flight yet?

Not putting the Cart in front of the Horse are we?

I recommend Discovery flight to make sure you like GA flying. Its night like Commercial Airline flying. GA flying you have to do all the flight planning yourself.
 
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Tom I don't think that RV will go 185Kts. He wants speed to reduce his travel time. Not something that can barely go 70 MPH and gets 8mpg.
Besides a motor home is for 80yrs that can barely see over the dash.
 
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evapilotaz said:
Tom I don't think that RV will go 185Kts. He wants speed to reduce his travel cost. Not something that can barely go 70 MPH.
Besides a motor home is for 80yrs that can barely see over the dash.
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It won't operate at 8 per hour either. But for what he wants to do, it is a better method.
 
Tom-D said:
Investigate fractional ownership. (net Jet)

Your required 185k ground speed at 8 GPH is not realistic.

With your 200k budget, plus your 15 k training you can afford a great motorhome.

Just think, no more need to be De-iced capable, no extra training or licensing, no more sleeping in some one else's bed. no more hotel bills.
[URL]http://www.rvtrader.com/listing/2007-Newmar-Essex-115166254[/URL]
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Cute answer but unless you build me a motorhome with used/rebuilt aircraft parts I doubt I will be able to make my destinations in time. Just so you can finish reading what you started I quoted it for you below so there is no confusion.

Scoobysmak said:
I would love to own a plane that got 200kts on 8 gph and had 1500 lbs of useful load. Needless to say that plane doesn't exist or its way above my budget. .
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evapilotaz said:
Anyway has the OP even done a discovery flight yet?

Not putting the Cart in front of the Horse are we?

I recommend Discovery flight to make sure you like GA flying. Its night like Commercial Airline flying. GA flying you have to do all the flight planning yourself.
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I have not taken a discovery flight at this point, on the to do list but it has not happened yet.

I did take a few courses in college when I was thinking about being a pilot. Your basic stuff with charts and weight and balance issues, basic metorlogical conditions, effects of hypoxia and aviation law. After a few airline pilots came to the courses and gave there stories I lost interest for a career choice. Low starting wages, questionable advancement and not always home.
 
Scoobysmak said:
I have not taken a discovery flight at this point, on the to do list but it has not happened yet.
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You might want to start with that or at least take a few lesson flights. You're theory crafting is akin to diagnosing medical issues with WebMD.... could be the Flu, could be full blown AIDS...

You'll know pretty fast if you like flying or not.
 
No need to buy an aircraft to learn in. Try to find a local flying club and at least get your PPL before you decide what to buy.
 
Do an introductory flight. You'll know for sure whether or not you want to pursue your license.
 
I still like the idea of buying a 150 or 172 and learn in that. You will fly much more with your own plane and with hours you will have in by time you finish ifr, you will about have paid for plane in rent. Not really, but, you can sell it and get most if not all of your money out. Then buy your cruiser. You will have looked and lusted after many planes by that time. You'll have better idea of what will work for you then. After you solo you can fly your own plane till the wings fall off.
 
Your plans are doable, although some of the numbers might be off. I'm sure it varies for everyone to some extent.

Flying to save money doesn't work. It can save you time, and it can be a lot of fun, but it isn't going to save you money...ever.

Flying just for the sake of convenience and getting there more quickly, or with less nuisance along the way doesn't seem like the right reason to learn to fly. And it certainly doesn't seem like a good reason to buy a plane. Do you even know if the wife and kids like flying in a small plane? My wife is not that crazy about it, and I'm having to break her in very slowly. (Big damper on fun, however, I learned to fly because it was a lifelong dream. I had no intention of buying a plane or flying for travel. But I did, and we do.)

You really do need to find out if you love flying. Because if you don't, flying yourself and your family around is going to be a lot of work. If you don't love flying, you're only going to be flying when you have to, instead of as much as you have time for. That means your skills are going to be rusty, and you might be putting loved ones at risk.

Take the discovery flight. It's a couple hours out of your day, and a couple hundred buck at most. You might even want to take the wife and kids on that flight, just to find out their reaction. Knowing whether or not you (and your family) like flying is step one. Without knowing that, everything else is just a waste of time.
 
I wasn't sure if I was going to love flying until I was soloing. Once I got to that point I fell in love with flying and the freedom. So my point is take a few lessons to make a decision if private flying is for you and family.
 
Rykymus said:
Your plans are doable, although some of the numbers might be off. I'm sure it varies for everyone to some extent.

Flying to save money doesn't work. It can save you time, and it can be a lot of fun, but it isn't going to save you money...ever.
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This. I was driving 22 hrs/week for work. Now I fly 6 hrs. More time at the business = more income.
 
You view of what you want/need might change as you fly. Just get your PPL and enjoy doing it! Don't think about the end result (cross country with an IFR) at the beginning. Enjoy getting up into the air, then soloing, then cross countries, then the test. Don't devalue those incredible experiences by thinking about some outcome that will require many more steps before you get there.

You might get side tracked into aerobatics or gliding….

Enjoy the beginning. Once you have your PPL, you'll be much better positioned to assess where you want to go with it.
 
Why not just rent. You will be many dollars ahead and can choose what type of plane you want to rent depending on if you are taking the family, doing a short VFR trip, or doing a long IFR one. If your budget is 275k for a plane assuming you can rent something on average for $120 an hour dry that is almost 2300 hours of renting before you break even not taking into account maintenance, hanger, insurance, etc. Most pilots that fly only for personal reasons never get anywhere near 2300 hours total time.

Keith
 
Scoobysmak said:
Cute answer but unless you build me a motorhome with used/rebuilt aircraft parts I doubt I will be able to make my destinations in time.
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To make your destination on time every time you'll need an aircraft that is pressurized, and equipped for flight into known icing conditions. Your $200,000 budget isn't going to buy any aircraft in this category that will be in a condition for safe long term operation.

Those here will encourage you to get in over your head, I'll tell you that a smart buyer will spend 50% of their budget on the aircraft, and 50% on the operating fund.

My best advice, cut a deal with a fractional ownership company. and fly in comfort and safety in an aircraft that you can't afford
 
Henning said:
Your expectations are unrealistic.
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I agree. OP might just be a bit ignorant. More research will solve that.

One thing especially is the one trip a month to Florida, there will be times where you just can't make the flight. Weather, maintenance issues, your health, all conspire at times to ground you.

That, and take your expected budget and double it. And that's if nothing major goes wrong with the airplane.
 
Rykymus said:
Your plans are doable, although some of the numbers might be off. I'm sure it varies for everyone to some extent.

Flying to save money doesn't work. It can save you time, and it can be a lot of fun, but it isn't going to save you money...ever.

Flying just for the sake of convenience and getting there more quickly, or with less nuisance along the way doesn't seem like the right reason to learn to fly. And it certainly doesn't seem like a good reason to buy a plane. Do you even know if the wife and kids like flying in a small plane? My wife is not that crazy about it, and I'm having to break her in very slowly. (Big damper on fun, however, I learned to fly because it was a lifelong dream. I had no intention of buying a plane or flying for travel. But I did, and we do.)

You really do need to find out if you love flying. Because if you don't, flying yourself and your family around is going to be a lot of work. If you don't love flying, you're only going to be flying when you have to, instead of as much as you have time for. That means your skills are going to be rusty, and you might be putting loved ones at risk.

Take the discovery flight. It's a couple hours out of your day, and a couple hundred buck at most. You might even want to take the wife and kids on that flight, just to find out their reaction. Knowing whether or not you (and your family) like flying is step one. Without knowing that, everything else is just a waste of time.
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This is good advice.

As far as GA goes, it's gotta be something you just want to do. If you value your time spent doing aviation-related chores (and this is far more than just flying) as a cost then you will quickly see that GA is a loser. But if you find that GA enhances your life; that your time spent doing it is a net benefit, then it can be a winner.

So I agree it'd be a good idea to find out whether you love it and all that comes with it - or not - because that's a big part of the valuation.
 
Like some have said, start with an intro flight. If you like it, start taking some lessons. But its a long and expensive road, so if you are not commited you will wash out. Many start with grand dreams and end up quiting about the time of their solo.

But I can identify with your dread of the long drive. In the past we would drive from MI to FL to VA and back to MI for every holiday. 55 hours of drive time. 4 of us + a dog, the airlines and 1 way tickets were a pain and expensive. Now we fly it in a Cirrus SR22. Love the plane. No more wasting time and hotel rooms with 4 days of driving on a week's vacation.

What you want is possible (well some of it), but it does take your commitment to make it happen. But its worth it and TONS of fun!
 
Depending on your start and end point you can absolutely save money vs the airlines.

I can fly to central Wisconsin and back for $200 round trip. Airlines - $400 and a whole lot slower.
 
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Rick Wallace said:
But what if your time is worth....(wait for it)..... money?
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There are .01% of the population who's time is worth more than what the plane cost.:rofl: Realistically though, there are some people GA works very well for, and their plane allows them enough extra billable hours on site that the plane makes them money.

BTW, your time is worth infinitely more than money. Money is only worth what someone else imagines it to be, your time is worth what you imagine it to be.
 
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