Looking at a ragwing plane

[alaskan9974]

Buddy of mine is selling a 75 citabria. Little over 1200TT on the airframe and motor. Was repainted a few years ago over the old paint, but it is flaking on the top surface of the wing. Would this necessitate an immediate recover? The original paint is underneath, and the aircraft was recently annualed. No fabric is showing, he is an A&P and says he applies silver when he checks the wing through the inspection plugs if he sees light.

 

[James331]

No

 

[pigpenracing]

Is it original 1975 fabric? Usually the fabric stays good if the airplane is hangared. The problem is the paint gets old and brittle and shows cracks. So now someone put new paint over the old cracked paint. If the paint is flaking now it will be really ugly when you fly it 50 more hours. The fabric flexes and the old bottom layer paint is no longer flexable. It should have been recovered when it was painted. I am sure it is airworthy as long as you can deal with ugly. Remember these days it cost around $40,000 to recover and paint for a nice job. If it was me I would pay more for a plane that was recovered in the past 15 years.

 

[James331]

Is it original 1975 fabric? Usually the fabric stays good if the airplane is hangared. The problem is the paint gets old and brittle and shows cracks. So now someone put new paint over the old cracked paint. If the paint is flaking now it will be really ugly when you fly it 50 more hours. The fabric flexes and the old bottom layer paint is no longer flexable. It should have been recovered when it was painted. I am sure it is airworthy as long as you can deal with ugly. Remember these days it cost around $40,000 to recover and paint for a nice job. If it was me I would pay more for a plane that was recovered in the past 15 years.

40k to recover a 7ECA?

If you're willing to pay that PLEASE PM me!

 

[pigpenracing]

40k to recover a 7ECA?

If you're willing to pay that PLEASE PM me!

I am not willing to pay that is the reason I don't buy fabric planes with 40 year old fabric. You know as well as me once you tear one down there will be other small problems and old stuff to repair. I hear the quotes are usually a little cheaper but when you get a turn key out the door full recover done it is $40,000... My 140 wing was recovered in 2003 and my Model 12 is a 2010 model so I am good

 

[Dana]

40K sounds way excessive but at any rate, if you're paying for a recover it will probably be more than the plane is worth. The only realistic (i.e. affordable) way is to do it yourself under the supervision of an A&P, but it's a big job. Peeling paint doesn't necessarily mean a recover if the fabric is good, but I believe Citabrias have a very expensive wing spar AD.

 

[denverpilot]

... I believe Citabrias have a very expensive wing spar AD.

If you're talking about putting the metal sleeve into the spar where the strut attaches via a bolt, that one was done long long ago on most of the fleet.

I can't imagine an A&P would even fly one today without doing it. It was the cause of three wing fold ups in flight and two of those were fatal.

And I know the person who wasn't the fatal. He bailed under parachute. Back in the 80s.

 

[champ driver]

If you're talking about putting the metal sleeve into the spar where the strut attaches via a bolt, that one was done long long ago on most of the fleet.

I can't imagine an A&P would even fly one today without doing it. It was the cause of three wing fold ups in flight and two of those were fatal.

And I know the person who wasn't the fatal. He bailed under parachute. Back in the 80s.

Please explain this "metal sleeve into the spar", are you saying this is part of the wing spar AD 2000-25-02, or something associated with original manufacturing?

7,8 and 11 series Aeroncas and Champions with wood spars have a wing spar AD, 2000-25-02 which is an inspection, and is expensive only IF,.. you find damage.

 

[denverpilot]

Please explain this "metal sleeve into the spar", are you saying this is part of the wing spar AD 2000-25-02, or something associated with original manufacturing?

7,8 and 11 series Aeroncas and Champions with wood spars have a wing spar AD, 2000-25-02 which is an inspection, and is expensive only IF,.. you find damage.

I believe the one I'm thinking of was a long time before the 2000 one. I'd have to go look it up. Late 80s likely date?

Essentially there was a bolt that ran through the wooden spar at or near the strut attachment point and over time it would round out a larger hole in the spar causing weakness.

I only knew of it tangentially from back then. Young pup and certainly wasn't flying Citabrias back then!

Then later, according to one of the people who bailed and survived, it led to three wing failures in flight. Two fatal. That's more "modern" news on it. To me anyway.

It was fixed by putting a metal sleeve through the spar and passing the bolt through it.

There's been a lot of hand-wringing even back then over wood spar aircraft. Lots of OWTs and what not surrounding them. Some real things to look for as they get old, some not.

I'm sure you know. I'm just mentioning it for folks who might not realize there's always folks who are freaked out by wood, and I'm not one of them.

 

[champ driver]

There is no AD associated with the wing prior to 2000-25-02 that I know of.
On my original wood wing spars there are only phenolic bushings, or sleeves as you call them, at the front spar butt end, 4 of them, and at each lift strut ends at the spars 3 each, front and rear. My new spars have aluminum bushings all at the same locations. There were never bushings at the rear spar butt end. I don't know of any other bushings in the spars.
I've owned my Champ since '85 and I've always been involved in it's maintenance, it's currently undergoing a full restoration.

Over the years there have been a number of problems and a few failures within the wing. Most of those are from hard aerobatics, damage like a wing strike on a hangar, or ground loop with the wing tip hitting the ground. Nails pulling out from the spars, cracked ribs are mostly from aerobatics, and compression cracks in the spars are from some kind of damage.
The original Champ was designed for a 65 HP engine with a VNE of 129mph. Over the years engines up 180 and 200 HP and the aerobatics that go with that have stressed the original spars much harder than anyone could have imagined in 1946.

I believe the Scout has had a few failures, what some people don't realize is the Scout is NOT approved for aerobatics, it's supposed to be a bush plane.

As for the OP questions, it's difficult to diagnose anything from 1000 miles away, and I'm no covering and paint expert. I would look closely at the logs to see if it's ever been covered since new. A lot of internal issues may need repairs after 42 years that you just can't fix without doing a recover. I would also find someone that knows Citabrias and is willing to help you inspect it, someone who doesn't have any investment in the plane, if you know what I mean. Not knowing anything about your friend, sometimes "friends" can turn out to be no friend at all. Do your research, find a second opinion and realize you may or may not be able to live with a plane with an ugly finish.

 

[denverpilot]

There is no AD associated with the wing prior to 2000-25-02 that I know of.
On my original wood wing spars there are only phenolic bushings, or sleeves as you call them, at the front spar butt end, 4 of them, and at each lift strut ends at the spars 3 each, front and rear. My new spars have aluminum bushings all at the same locations. There were never bushings at the rear spar butt end. I don't know of any other bushings in the spars.

Fair enough. I'll have to ask the guy who bailed out, which AD it was... or how it was handled back then.

Meanwhile an honest question, as I'm not a student of the design of the Aeronca stuff... is the wing on the Champ identical to the wing on the Citabria?

This was definitely a Citabria he bailed from, which is why I ask. Mostly out of curiosity...

 

[champ driver]

I just looked up my records to jog my memory and I think I know what you're talking about. There is a heavy wall round tube inserted into the square tube rear spar carry though that's inside the fuselage, AD 49-11-02. There is also an AD for the front strut fitting at the spar because of tie down loads, that is 47-30-01. And, there is 48-04-02 for additional PK screws in the aluminum leading edge to prevent nose rib buckling. All of those are very old AD's and should have been complied with many decades ago. Those are so old that I forgot about them.

Aeronca Champs, Chief and Citabria wings are essentially the same structure inside. There are some minor differences like the wing tip is changed to a square shape fiberglass instead of the steel tubing round shape. The leading edge aluminum used to be .016 and is now either .020 or .025, the ribs are slightly heaver with a wider flange for pop rivets instead of PK screws holding the fabric to the ribs.

 

[Art VanDelay]

Looking at a fabric plane - also needs to be looking for a hangar !

 

[denverpilot]

There is a heavy wall round tube inserted into the square tube rear spar carry though that's inside the fuselage, AD 49-11-02.

...

Those are so old that I forgot about them.

Hahaha well, I'm kinda old and the guy who had to bail is older than me!

Thanks for the info on the construction similarities. I've not had the pleasure of flying a Champ, but it explains why folks who have, seem to hold them in high regard.

One (even older! Ha!) friend really talks about many many days of time building in a Champ he did long before he was in professional aviation. He just adores the things.