Long XCountry- Shot Down

O

Owad1971

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Owad1971
:mad2::mad2:
So after spending the previous night and early morning planning the super most awesome Long Xcountry- I get to the school and my instructor will not sign me off for the "long one"- wants me to do another "short one" then a "long one"- whats the point? other than adding $$$ to my training- The only difference between the legs was a 60 mile lazy flight along a river and back. DO instructors always insist on you exceeding the requirements needlessly? I seriously rather spend the extra Hobbs on performance TO & Landings, not solo xcountries where I have proven (during two previous extra DUAL Xcountries) that I can aviate, navigate and communicate.....


Someone please talk me off the ledge....I am KINDA P'O ED!:mad::mad::mad:
 
Would you still be upset if the weather had kept you from going at all? Maybe he is testing you in another fashion? I can tell you that along my journey to PPL, I had planned quite a few trips that got canned including having to redo my checkride cross country planning. You just need to sock it up to getting more planning experience.
 
Owad1971 said:
:mad2::mad2:
So after spending the previous night and early morning planning the super most awesome Long Xcountry- I get to the school and my instructor will not sign me off for the "long one"- wants me to do another "short one" then a "long one"- whats the point? other than adding $$$ to my training- The only difference between the legs was a 60 mile lazy flight along a river and back. DO instructors always insist on you exceeding the requirements needlessly? I seriously rather spend the extra Hobbs on performance TO & Landings, not solo xcountries where I have proven (during two previous extra DUAL Xcountries) that I can aviate, navigate and communicate.....


Someone please talk me off the ledge....I am KINDA P'O ED!:mad::mad::mad:
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I think all of us have dealt with that at one time or another. Some for legitimate reasons others just for more money as you said. Of course there is also the aspect that a flight instructor might be scared to sign off anyone in case something happens, so they prescribe extra training just to be ultra-conservative.

I would ask your flight instructor for the specific reasons they wouldn't sign you off. If there are things you need to work on it would be reasonable to expect those to be communicated prior to you spending the night planning a flight.

If you don't get good answers perhaps it is time to talk with the chief pilot.
 
Did you ever think that maybe there is a reason why your instructor has to sign you off on the cross country flights? If you truly believe you are being ripped off ,you should shop around for another instructor.
 
instead of bitching on this forum - did you ask him what he thinks you would get out of one more short x-country?

sometimes asking generates a good discussion - maybe you are not doing something to PTS standards and he wants to see it first - in case you haev not noticed men are not very good at explaining themselves
 
Owad1971 said:
:mad2::mad2:
So after spending the previous night and early morning planning the super most awesome Long Xcountry- I get to the school and my instructor will not sign me off for the "long one"- wants me to do another "short one" then a "long one"- whats the point? other than adding $$$ to my training- The only difference between the legs was a 60 mile lazy flight along a river and back. DO instructors always insist on you exceeding the requirements needlessly? I seriously rather spend the extra Hobbs on performance TO & Landings, not solo xcountries where I have proven (during two previous extra DUAL Xcountries) that I can aviate, navigate and communicate.....


Someone please talk me off the ledge....I am KINDA P'O ED!:mad::mad::mad:
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The way I read the OP, he wanted to jump straight from short dual cross-country flights to a long solo cross-country flight. I don't know of any instructor who has let his student do a long cross-country as the first solo cross-country.

That first solo short cross-country is very good practice and allows the student and instructor to have the confidence to send the student off onto the adventure of a long cross-country. If you already have the self-confidence for the solo long cross-country without first doing the short cross-country solo, then possibly you are over-confident.

I, too, thought I was quite capable of a long solo cross-country before doing the short solo cross-country. And I was. But it was still a very good exercise in flying solo and proved to me and my instructor that I was actually ready. It isn't a dollar thing. It is prudence and safety. Be grateful.

PS: Congratulations on your progress. We'll soon see you after the checkride.
 
Alexb2000 said:
I think all of us have dealt with that at one time or another. Some for legitimate reasons others just for more money as you said. Of course there is also the aspect that a flight instructor might be scared to sign off anyone in case something happens, so they prescribe extra training just to be ultra-conservative.

I would ask your flight instructor for the specific reasons they wouldn't sign you off. If there are things you need to work on it would be reasonable to expect those to be communicated prior to you spending the night planning a flight.

If you don't get good answers perhaps it is time to talk with the chief pilot.
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Agreed- I actually don't mind planning out the trip- It helps me visualize what I can expect on my trip- I even do this for pattern/ practice area work (getting a full briefing , Weigh & Balance...all of it).

At the last "stage check" before the xcountry solo phase...NONE of the things that needed improvement were related to navigation, or comms. The day of the stage check ( a full blown xcountry with another instructor, the Chief Pilot and 2.5 Hrs Hobbs...) was quite gusty...and In my view I could use some work on the simulated soft field TO & Landings in less than ideal weather conditions...

For all of the "Extras" because they are being ultra conservative they should OFFER to pay for my checkride If I pass on the first try.......

NOW Theres a THOUGHT- If your method is so effective- Prove IT!!!:D:D:D

Thanks All- Rant Over!
In my next life I will be filthy rich, then stuff like this won't matter...
 
^ As AP mentioned its typical for you to do a short solo XC (or two) before doing a long one. You need 5 hours solo x/c flying for the private pilot certificate.

Do a short one like your instructor suggests and do the long one later to finish up.

(i) 5 hours of solo cross-country time;

(ii) One solo cross country flight of 150 nautical miles total distance, with full-stop landings at three points, and one segment of the flight consisting of a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles between the takeoff and landing locations; and
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My instructor wont sign me off due to the winds that we have been having, gusting 20+. One day we did short/soft field TO and landings but i've cancelled another 5 lessons or so. He knows I'm ready but doesn't want me up solo in the gusting winds, but he also doesn't want me wasting money on just boring holes in the sky....
 
AuntPeggy said:
The way I read the OP, he wanted to jump straight from short dual cross-country flights to a long solo cross-country flight. I don't know of any instructor who has let his student do a long cross-country as the first solo cross-country.

That first solo short cross-country is very good practice and allows the student and instructor to have the confidence to send the student off onto the adventure of a long cross-country. If you already have the self-confidence for the solo long cross-country without first doing the short cross-country solo, then possibly you are over-confident.

I, too, thought I was quite capable of a long solo cross-country before doing the short solo cross-country. And I was. But it was still a very good exercise in flying solo and proved to me and my instructor that I was actually ready. It isn't a dollar thing. It is prudence and safety. Be grateful.

PS: Congratulations on your progress. We'll soon see you after the checkride.
Click to expand...


Sorry about that detail... I did one solo xc prior...the proposed would have followed the same route for leg one.... then north along a river by 60nm to a prominent (large easy to find controlled) airport....then back retracing my steps. I was careful to understand my limitations, comfort level and stay reasonable...
 
Owad1971 said:
Sorry about that detail... I did one solo xc prior...the proposed would have followed the same route for leg one.... then north along a river by 60nm to a prominent (large easy to find controlled) airport....hen back retracing my steps. I was careful to understand my limitations, comfort level and stay reasonable...
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My CFI wants 2 solo xc (KPOU and KGON) before the long solo xc
 
momalley said:
My CFI wants 2 solo xc (KPOU and KGON) before the long solo xc
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:goofy:the plan was FRG...POU...ALB..Then home via POU....
My first xc was FRG to POU- I was trying to get done all in one day..

Oh Well...Next time.
 
momalley said:
My instructor wont sign me off due to the winds that we have been having, gusting 20+. One day we did short/soft field TO and landings but i've cancelled another 5 lessons or so. He knows I'm ready but doesn't want me up solo in the gusting winds, but he also doesn't want me wasting money on just boring holes in the sky....
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Flying in gusty winds is good practice. I hope you're not cancelling lessons just so you have a smaller number of hours to solo.
 
I was never in your shoes. I always felt that my instructor was pushing me along and I was the more conservative one.

In either case it comes down to trust. If you don't trust your instructor then you should, as someone else suggested, ask questions. Maybe it's as simple as your proposed long x-country won't get you to the total solo x-country time you need so you might as well do another short one first. If you honestly think your flight school is trying to run up the hours for no good reason then you need to find another flight school. I wouldn't want that mental stress hanging over all my flying time.
 
Brad Z said:
Flying in gusty winds is good practice. I hope you're not cancelling lessons just so you have a smaller number of hours to solo.
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I'm not cancelling the lessons, my CFI is.

I however, don't feel extremely comfortable with my crosswind landings to do them solo in 25kt gusting crosswinds at this point in my training
 
here's what I "think" I know:
to meet the 5 hour solo xc req, you'll most likely either need 2 short ones and 1 long one, OR 1 not-so-short one plus 1 pretty darn long one. maybe he's just pushing you towards the former option for the extra exposure, which in the end would only be an extra .2 or .3 hobbs or so?

a quick skyvector check of FRG to POU to FRG shows about an hour and 10 minutes (at 100kts), which means your long one would have to be 3 hours and 50 minutes. maybe he's thinking that might be a bit on the high side? I dunno.
 
The only reason I could think that he would have you do another short XC was if the combined time between one long and one short XC did not make up the 5 hours required. If you have demonstrated that you are competent enough to do one short why practice the same again ?

My "short" XC solo was about 2 hours (hour each way to one destination) and my long one was about 3 hrs, landing at 2 airports. My instructor told me to keep an eye on the hobs and if it looked like I was going to be landing back at Van Nuys with a total of 4.6 or 4.7 or something like that, to fly some circles over the desert to burn up the time LOL:D.

They said if I was under 5 hours I would have to do another complete XC solo..:mad2:
 
I did one dual XC and 3 solo XCs (one of which was a repeat of the dual XC). I loved flying these, so I certainly never thought that doing more would be BAD.
 
That was my attitude. I was never one to watch the hours like a hawk but I still made it to the checkride in under 50. My theory was, you're going to pay for time after the checkride, so why the obsession with 30 minutes here or there before the checkride? Enjoy the training time! You're still flying. I guess for some folks, flying solo or with an instructor in the plane with you isn't fun.

ChrisK said:
I did one dual XC and 3 solo XCs (one of which was a repeat of the dual XC). I loved flying these, so I certainly never thought that doing more would be BAD.
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ferrari-tech said:
The only reason I could think that he would have you do another short XC was if the combined time between one long and one short XC did not make up the 5 hours required. If you have demonstrated that you are competent enough to do one short why practice the same again ?

My "short" XC solo was about 2 hours (hour each way to one destination) and my long one was about 3 hrs, landing at 2 airports. My instructor told me to keep an eye on the hobs and if it looked like I was going to be landing back at Van Nuys with a total of 4.6 or 4.7 or something like that, to fly some circles over the desert to burn up the time LOL:D.

They said if I was under 5 hours I would have to do another complete XC solo..:mad2:
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EXACTLY!!!!!!!!
 
eman1200 said:
here's what I "think" I know:
to meet the 5 hour solo xc req, you'll most likely either need 2 short ones and 1 long one, OR 1 not-so-short one plus 1 pretty darn long one. maybe he's just pushing you towards the former option for the extra exposure, which in the end would only be an extra .2 or .3 hobbs or so?

a quick skyvector check of FRG to POU to FRG shows about an hour and 10 minutes (at 100kts), which means your long one would have to be 3 hours and 50 minutes. maybe he's thinking that might be a bit on the high side? I dunno.
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Correct, FRG to POU is 54nm or about 35 minutes.
 
ebetancourt said:
I'm curious, what is being described as short or long distance wise?
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as per FAR- xcountry flight is at least 50nm from origin airport. For training PP-SEL 5 hours of solo xcountry time reqd, at least one trip must include a flight of 150 mi total distance with 3 stops (home landing counts as a stop).
 
momalley said:
Correct, FRG to POU is 54nm or about 35 minutes.
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Heck no- Not on the Hobb$$ meter it isn't...this I know.:hairraise:

So Much For Maximizing my Bang for my Buck...I was trying to save a few $$ in this area (with one less flight) and put it toward an area where I could use more targeted work (like practice in advance of checkride)...Unfortunately for me there are limits to my flying budget... I need one of those winning lottery tickets:yes::yes::yes:
 
Owad1971 said:
Heck no- Not on the Hobb$$ meter it isn't...this I know.:hairraise:

So Much For Maximizing my Bang for my Buck...I was trying to save a few $$ in this area (with one less flight) and put it toward an area where I could use more targeted work (like practice in advance of checkride)...Unfortunately for me there are limits to my flying budget... I need one of those winning lottery tickets:yes::yes::yes:
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Aviation is often incompatible with a limited budget. This seems to apply particularly to professional aviation.
 
I wouldn't care - just be happy to fly a XC to be honest. They are the payoff...

I never thought anything of it - but every XC I did during my PPL training was 3 legged and could have counted for a 'long' one. I think one would have been about 10nm too short to qualify but I did 4 and they all were in the 150nm round trip range hitting 2 airports then back home. I guess my CFI thought I was ready to go...he even signed me off for me to hit a 70' X 3600' spot that I wanted to go to. I knew I was ready for it and we'd done a decent amount of practice at a similar sized strip.

Anyway, like others had mentioned - if you don't know why ask him? If there had been any point in my training where I felt like we were repeating things that I was doing well on and ready to move on I wouldn't have hesitated to have the conversation.
 
I think you may be a tad bit overconfident.

S**t happens on cross-countries. Some of it will be for things you haven't trained for. Mine had no less than FOUR unusual occurrences. Some were related to navigation, others weren't.

1. I discovered in flight that the DME had a 5 mile range. Not useful. Had to replan in the air using cross-radials to make a planned descent.

2. Another pilot had an engine failure very near my position at the time, and landed safely at a nearby airport I was using as a checkpoint. ATC lost contact due to low altitude and mountains, and asked me to relay.

3. I had trouble figuring out the self service fuel pump (specifically, they don't turn off unless you SHOVE the filler into its holder).

4. On my arrival after 3+ hours into a busy towered pattern, the aircraft behind me executed MY instruction to turn base. I exercised 91.3(b) and continued on downwind to avoid until it was sorted out. There was another Class D there. No fallout whatsoever except the CFI in the other aircraft insisted the instruction was "unclear" (on the ground -- the aircraft in question was one I'd flown before). No, it wasn't at all.

A further "issue" (though it really was a non-issue) was that I learned that haze from a distance looks a heck of a lot like overcast.

This is all in one flight!

Do you still think you're "ready?" I'd want to test that if I were you. A shorter flight has fewer opportunities for this sort of thing, and will be less overwhelming and more likely to build the confidence it is supposed to.

And eman1200 has a very good point. A 3+ hour cross-country is quite a lot longer than 150 miles.
 
A XC that is more then 3 hours is very tiring. I did it and I can still remember it and how I felt. I never slept so well but I wanted a long xc to be long so I didn't have to do much more solo (I hate flying solo) If I were your CFI I probably wouldn't let you do one that is more then 2.5 round trip.

As far as the 5 hours just make sure you watch the hobbs. :) When I did the first XC I was at 3.2 hours so all I had to do was a XC that took 1.8 so when I got close to the airport I looked at the hobbs and I was at 1.6 so I circled around the area "Sightseeing" and when it clicked to 1.7 I entered the pattern. I landed and parked and then the hobbs read 1.9 I was happy to get my XC time in with only 2 flights. :)
 
I scrubbed my long solo XC enroute. Had already completed one XC with the CFI and the same XC route solo. He liked having the third long XC as one direct (mine was straight line distance of 166 nm which would require refueling in the 152 as well with winds aloft). Just after transitioning the Class C I lost transmit, but could still hear. Tried both pilot and co-pilot headset jacks. ATC was going to cancel my FF for no response so I idented and they began communicating that way (idents for response).

There were potential rain showers at my destination near time of arrival, and with the radio issues I decided to break that chain before too many links developed. Hand held worked for Class C approach and transition, but not with ATC.
 
Well, from the thread title I thought this was going to be the most exciting Long X-C story ever.
 
tiger said:
Well, from the thread title I thought this was going to be the most exciting Long X-C story ever.
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I am sorry to let you down....:lol:

I agree...Looking at the title, one would think F-16s were involved.:hairraise:
 
ferrari-tech said:
The only reason I could think that he would have you do another short XC was if the combined time between one long and one short XC did not make up the 5 hours required. If you have demonstrated that you are competent enough to do one short why practice the same again ?

My "short" XC solo was about 2 hours (hour each way to one destination) and my long one was about 3 hrs, landing at 2 airports. My instructor told me to keep an eye on the hobs and if it looked like I was going to be landing back at Van Nuys with a total of 4.6 or 4.7 or something like that, to fly some circles over the desert to burn up the time LOL:D.

They said if I was under 5 hours I would have to do another complete XC solo..:mad2:
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Yeah - my CFI gave me the same instructions. Don't land until greater than x.x on the Hobbs. Another student (different CFI) came up 0.1 short on his XC hours. That was an expensive lesson just to add that extra 6 minutes.
 
I only did one shorter XC before my long one, but in the end I was .7 short of my time requirements and did another short one. It seems everyone does the FRG to POU (everyone I've talked to goes there first) which was much harder to navigate than my long XC which was GON to BDR to FRG. I had to change BDR instead of OXC due to the VOR being out of the plane and I wanted to use the shoreline to be safe without any VORs. I enjoyed going to HTO on my last one because it was uncontrolled versus all the other controlled airports.
Especially if you're going to go onto instrument training, there's no harm in doing another one.
 
saracelica said:
A XC that is more then 3 hours is very tiring. I did it and I can still remember it and how I felt. I never slept so well but I wanted a long xc to be long so I didn't have to do much more solo (I hate flying solo) If I were your CFI I probably wouldn't let you do one that is more then 2.5 round trip.

As far as the 5 hours just make sure you watch the hobbs. :) When I did the first XC I was at 3.2 hours so all I had to do was a XC that took 1.8 so when I got close to the airport I looked at the hobbs and I was at 1.6 so I circled around the area "Sightseeing" and when it clicked to 1.7 I entered the pattern. I landed and parked and then the hobbs read 1.9 I was happy to get my XC time in with only 2 flights. :)
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Do you still hate flying solo?

I just find that interesting because there are times when solo flight is the best thing ever for me.
 
Owad. You are flying on the instructor's ticket. We had a long XC here that went NE out of Peoria. After 30 minutes he didn't see what he though he should be seeing.

SO he decided to land. Just so happened it was 4R at ORD.
His CFI took a 44709 ride. It's been 20 years. Ewey, his CFI, is still mad about it.

You can ***** and moan all you want. If you think you are getting ripped off, get to someone else. But it sure looks to me like a bit of overconfidence. the CFI's sign. says he has reason to think you will not get in trouble, but you have to earn that, not declare it.

Good things come in order, and when they are ready. We have all been there.
 
Owad1971 said:
So after spending the previous night and early morning planning the super most awesome Long Xcountry- I get to the school and my instructor will not sign me off for the "long one"- wants me to do another "short one" then a "long one"-
Click to expand...

So you and your instructor never talked about today's destination until this morning? Sounds like a failure to communicate.....
 
tiger said:
Well, from the thread title I thought this was going to be the most exciting Long X-C story ever.
Click to expand...

haha - yeah no joke.

"...so, on the way to my second leg of my long XC I decide to over fly the White House..."
 
AuntPeggy said:
The way I read the OP, he wanted to jump straight from short dual cross-country flights to a long solo cross-country flight. I don't know of any instructor who has let his student do a long cross-country as the first solo cross-country.

That first solo short cross-country is very good practice and allows the student and instructor to have the confidence to send the student off onto the adventure of a long cross-country. If you already have the self-confidence for the solo long cross-country without first doing the short cross-country solo, then possibly you are over-confident.

I, too, thought I was quite capable of a long solo cross-country before doing the short solo cross-country. And I was. But it was still a very good exercise in flying solo and proved to me and my instructor that I was actually ready. It isn't a dollar thing. It is prudence and safety. Be grateful.

PS: Congratulations on your progress. We'll soon see you after the checkride.
Click to expand...

My first xc was my long xc KASH 7B2 KBDL 6B6 KASH. with that in mind one of my dual xcs was longer KASH KDDH KLEB KASH

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
 
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