Long XC training opportunity Colorado to Sun and Fun. No fun permitted.

Landing Fees

Landing Fees

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Feb 9, 2018
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Landing Fees
Flight of two, a Mooney and a 182. We will provide instruction. A great opportunity to plan and fly long legs, in formation, through many types of weather and log XC or simulated instrument.
 
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So much for not “holding out” without a Commercial certificate and the airplane being set up for charter. LOL. ;)
 
I suppose somebody could get deep enough in the weeds to call this holding out. I think you need to offer refreshments to be considered “holding” in the latest revision. This flight will be BYOB.
 
I don't see anything about fees so I'm assuming, as I'm *sure* the FAA is, that these are free seats just for the joy of going to FnS
 
DP and JC make a fair points. If the FSDO has somebody in charge of scouring the interwebs looking for banditos offering to fly anyone, anywhere, anytime they are leaving something more important undone. As such they need only look as far as the local flight school bulletin board - time-building and splitting time. Probably depends on the mood of the day. I didn't even contemplate that since if one was offering up a seat to a licensed pilot, one that would probably have been flying commercial anyway, that it would/could/should be considered holding out. You know how they say you forget everything after the test, I am cutting up my certificates right now. Ha.
 
They’re touchy since the FlyteNow thing. Really a post like this is exactly what they wanted to do and charge a few bucks for website access.

It’s a PITA, since there’s physical bulletin boards full of the same thing all over the country, and at OSH. Couldn’t say for SnF since I’ve not yet been there.
 
Doesn't holding out require a willingness to accept any passengers from any segment of the public? It would also require compensation.

Of course if you are paranoid then you recognize that mere companionship makes the trip more bearable and that is a form of compensation. Furthermore, since you are flying and gaining flight hours while your pilot friend is a mere passenger, there is not common cause because you are not getting the same thing out of the trip. Lastly, holding out can reasonably be said to be accomplished at many levels, that it was only advertised to a single person does not negate that it was advertised. Therefore, 61.113 tells you that you can never fly with a passenger again for any reason unless you certify as a charter operation.

My answer is don't be paranoid.
 
bflynn said:
Doesn't holding out require a willingness to accept any passengers from any segment of the public? It would also require compensation.
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The original post before editing didn’t stipulate a pilot, and FAA considers the flight time compensation.

The kicker here and other requirement is common purpose, and that is probably met in a trip to SnF.

Sooo, do what one will... probably just best not done via an open to anyone post or one that looks like it, on the Internetzzz.
 
denverpilot said:
FAA considers the flight time compensation.
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My flight time that I pay for is not compensation.

My flight time where we split expenses for a common purpose trip is not compensation. I pay for my half of allowable expenses and you pay for yours. This is explicitly provided for in 61.113.

OMG, I've gotten sucked into another 61.113 paranoia argument...
 
Ok I think I have indemnified myself from any enforcement action with this: I want to hire somebody to fly my plane to FL. The compensation will be $60/flight hour but you have to pay for your share fuel (1/3), my engine fund, annual, hangar, AD's, tires, battery reserve, Garmin database subscription, oil, cleaning supplies. Winner winner.

Now since I am a CFI and the PIC will be under foggles and the right seat guy is the safety pilot...all three of us will log time.
 
bflynn said:
My flight time that I pay for is not compensation.

My flight time where we split expenses for a common purpose trip is not compensation. I pay for my half of allowable expenses and you pay for yours. This is explicitly provided for in 61.113.

OMG, I've gotten sucked into another 61.113 paranoia argument...
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The Chief Counsel didn’t agree with your second post for even a flight fully paid for by the pilot who might get business later from his friend. They specifically called out the flight time besides the future business that hadn’t even occurred.

No intent to start the debate up again. Just saying it’s not a good time to do anything even remotely that looks like holding out on the Internet.

I also clearly said do whatever the hell you want to. Not my problem.
 
Landing Fees said:
Ok I think I have indemnified myself from any enforcement action with this: I want to hire somebody to fly my plane to FL. The compensation will be $60/flight hour but you have to pay for your share fuel (1/3), my engine fund, annual, hangar, AD's, tires, battery reserve, Garmin database subscription, oil, cleaning supplies. Winner winner.

Now since I am a CFI and the PIC will be under foggles and the right seat guy is the safety pilot...all three of us will log time.
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Can only spilt operating costs. Maintenance and hangar, illegal unless you rented the aircraft to yourself with all of those costs included. LOL.

Ironically as a CFI you could just post you are offering long XC training. LOL. LOL.
 
First he has seats, then he doesn't have seats, now it's a training flight in a rental aircraft....this could go on forever and they'll never get to SnF.
 
Clark1961 said:
First he has seats, then he doesn't have seats, now it's a training flight in a rental aircraft....this could go on forever and they'll never get to SnF.
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Oh we are going but I am doing background investigations on anybody that wants to go, especially DP.

Compensation has dropped to -$15/hour because you now have to pay for my expert instruction.
 
Landing Fees said:
Oh we are going but I am doing background investigations on anybody that wants to go, especially DP.

Compensation has dropped to -$15/hour because you now have to pay for my expert instruction.
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Let’s get one thing clear here. I’m not paying. Got it?
 
I’d rather walk to Florida than be stuck in the plane with someone who loses it over a friendly reminder that FAA has a hard on for this stuff right now.

Hahahaha. Chill.

Really there was no intent to cause a fuss. But y’all wanted to fuss.

And yes, you’d need to do the TSA documentation and file it in your records for years, to teach a new student and endorse their logbook that you did so, speaking of background checks. :) :) :)
 
I’m enjoying the discussion. Have you upset yourself DP? Trying to find the wiggle room to get somebody to come along and pay their share. I changed the post at the flight school to reflect long XC training, crap now my insurance is going to triple, some poor private pilot just incurred another $2K to get legal in my humble plane.
 
If you fly me to SnF, I will be a mooch and expect it for free. :)
 
Can’t even fly you for free or even let you fly because I would be oppressing somebody and that kills puppies.
 
I'm totally lost here. Are you looking for someone to share a ride/costs to SnF or do you own two aircraft and are looking for someone to fly one of them to SnF?
 
Landing Fees said:
Can’t even fly you for free or even let you fly because I would be oppressing somebody and that kills puppies.
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I’ll just be honest in saying that a good portion of FAA regulations are totally idiotic. If it’s your airplane than you should be able to operate it as freely as you wish.
 
idahoflier said:
I'm totally lost here. Are you looking for someone to share a ride/costs to SnF or do you own two aircraft and are looking for someone to fly one of them to SnF?
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Understand the confusion. I offered seats for a pilot that might want to fly with us to SNF, that is “holding out”, which is a no-no. I have changed the title and the original post repeatedly and the thread has degenerated into insanity. Now I am hiring somebody to fly my plane but expecting you to pay me and cover the insurance difference if you don’t meet the open pilot policy.
 
Ryanb said:
I’ll just be honest in saying that a good portion of FAA regulations are totally idiotic. If it’s your airplane than you should be able to operate it as freely as you wish.
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I started the thread innocently enough and a couple pointed out the err of my ways. I am now advertising inexpensive XC flight instruction (but not really) to everyone except people who believe polar bears are endangered.
 
Landing Fees said:
I started the thread innocently enough and a couple pointed out the err of my ways. I am now advertising inexpensive XC flight instruction (but not really) to everyone except people who believe polar bears are endangered.
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A lot of people like to pick nits. Hang around long enough and you’ll discover it even more, it’s the nature of the internet.

Personally I don’t see a thing wrong with what you’re doing, but I’m not the FAA.

Sometimes it’s best not to advertise what you’re doing. I’m not an advocate for doing things against the regs but - - don’t ask, don’t tell.
 
Landing Fees said:
I started the thread innocently enough and a couple pointed out the err of my ways. I am now advertising inexpensive XC flight instruction (but not really) to everyone except people who believe polar bears are endangered.
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If ya pick me up we can give each instruction! :goofy:
 
I would go, but no fun is allowed.....and I can get that at home.

Actually, I can provide free instruction for having no fun at the charge of half the cost if you pick me up in your non-rental aircraft that I can rent but not really.
 
Ryanb said:
I’ll sit in the back and be the chaperone...just to make sure things are legal.
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In order to avoid entanglement with the FAA I have decided that I will only fly people within in the limits of my facility who don't want it.
 
Landing Fees said:
Understand the confusion. I offered seats for a pilot that might want to fly with us to SNF, that is “holding out”, which is a no-no. I have changed the title and the original post repeatedly and the thread has degenerated into insanity. Now I am hiring somebody to fly my plane but expecting you to pay me and cover the insurance difference if you don’t meet the open pilot policy.
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Not an attorney, but I can't imagine any issues with having someone fly your aircraft to SnF, even if you post a thread on an internet forum looking for VOLUNTEER pilots. Seems like worst case the pilot would need to hold a CPL with a valid medical, then the compensation issue would go away if the FAA considers it an issue. If that's not the case then the FAA is truly out of control...
 
idahoflier said:
Not an attorney, but I can't imagine any issues with having someone fly your aircraft to SnF, even if you post a thread on an internet forum looking for VOLUNTEER pilots. Seems like worst case the pilot would need to hold a CPL with a valid medical, then the compensation issue would go away if the FAA considers it an issue. If that's not the case then the FAA is truly out of control...
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Initially I was offering two seats to fly out to SNF with me and my buddies in our planes. This could have been perceived as "holding out", SWA had already called the FAA to complain because I was offering free alcoholic drinks and three free bags. So I changed (in jest) it to hiring somebody to fly my plane but made the hourly rate not cover their share of expenses, so that they ended up paying for their share of gas, which could still be construed as holding out. Then I changed it to instruction. Sometimes we have to get into the minutia to remember that there really is a lot of minutia.
 
Ryanb said:
Affirmative. CFI giving dual instruction.
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I was reading the AC about holding out and it doesn’t mention Internet forums at all. I think I am in the clear.

Mason. You can log dual when you are reading this forum and you can log twice the flight time when flying with two instructors.
 
How is that 182 gonna keep up with the Mooney?

Or even better, how is the Mooney driver gonna throttle back the whole way?

:)
 
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