Long cross country

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C_Parker

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Hey guys, relatively low time PPL looking to take a long cross country next month. I'm ADSB in/out equipped, Forelight and onboard GPS, flying solo, in a C182.

I've broken the 9 hour trip into 3 hour blocks by making two stops, I carry 4.8 hours of fuel. I plan on flying high (11,500) to catch a tailwind on the way there (eastbound) and fly low (4,500) on the way back to duck under the prevailing wind, until I reach the rockies anyways (no less than 1,500 AGL). The trip there and back will be about a week apart, with the flights being completed in one day, providing weather allows but I will have some flexibility if conditions change. I'll watch for rotation of high and low pressure systems to take advantage of winds, and I can use Altitude Advisor in Foreflight. Besides the obvious of knowing and monitoring weather conditions, having some snacks, staying alert, etc. do you guys have any advice for a relatively new pilot on his first long XC?

Also, do we have any Wyoming or South Dakota pilots here? I've planned my stops at Converse County Airport in Wyoming and Harold Davidson Field in South Dakota based mostly on making even segments to the trip and fuel prices. Are those good stops or should I consider different airports?

Thanks
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Your altitudes aren't nearly high enough to clear the terrain that your course will take you over. You have at least one mountain above 12,500 feet. I would suggest you dog leg south on the first leg to go around the southern end of the highest mountains. Other than that, it's all about the weather!

PS: Add 42.14N/110.63W between your points on your westernmost leg. Then the terrain maxes out at 8900 feet.
 
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Hi Croomrider,

Good point, I will be doglegging south of the Wind River Range, which clears me of any terrain over 9,000ft. My stated altitudes will be subject to terrain, and will be no less than 1,500 AGL at any time.
 
I see you have onboard WX? On a long flight there WILL be weather issues, maybe even just strong winds. Part of MOST days will have flyable hours. You need to bite off miles as able, remain flexible, and ‘make hay while the sun shines’.

Never get fixated in on previous plans or stops, even my favorite, cheap fuel. How about a backup South around the worst of the terrain over Farmington, NM, some sites, Page, AZ, ST George, UT then up to Salt Lake? The bottom line, have a few ideas, float the flying days.
,
 
Your stop at KVMR offers only one runway which is fine if the wind is cooperating. There is another choice close by with cheaper gas and two runways, it's KYKN. You might also look at KTOR for the cheaper fuel on your first leg. I would definitely call before going to any remote places to make sure they will be open and the fuel is available.
 
Yes, KTOR then westerly towards Cherokee with the lowest of terrain.
 
I wonder if the fuel prices in Foreflight for KOFK are for real?
 
@C_Parker your route is near perfect.
I'd deviate a bit south to Logan Ut. and cross. But that's just me, your 182 will do this crossing with ease. 2 hours out, all the high rocks will be behind you.
Just because there is a rock at 14,000' doesn't mean you must go there. or be at 14,000' when your route is 50 miles away.
 
C_Parker said:
Hey guys, relatively low time PPL looking to take a long cross country next month. I'm ADSB in/out equipped, Forelight and onboard GPS, flying solo, in a C182.

I've broken the 9 hour trip into 3 hour blocks by making two stops, I carry 4.8 hours of fuel. I plan on flying high (11,500) to catch a tailwind on the way there (eastbound) and fly low (4,500) on the way back to duck under the prevailing wind, until I reach the rockies anyways (no less than 1,500 AGL). I plan to make the trips there and back each in one day, providing weather allows but I will have some flexibility if conditions change. I'll watch for rotation of high and low pressure systems to take advantage of winds, and I can use Altitude Advisor in Foreflight. Besides the obvious of knowing and monitoring weather conditions, having some snacks, staying alert, etc. do you guys have any advice for a relatively new pilot on his first long XC?

Also, do we have any Wyoming or South Dakota pilots here? I've planned my stops at Converse County Airport in Wyoming and Harold Davidson Field in South Dakota based mostly on making even segments to the trip and fuel prices. Are those good stops or should I consider different airports?

Thanks
View attachment 72479
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https://www.airnav.com/fuel/
Have you seen this website. It may help with fuel stop selection.

I see you are planning to do this in one day. 18 plus hours of flying is VERY tough on your brain. Be careful doing this. It will effect your decision making abilities. I did a 16 hour flight dodging weather all day. When I got home and ordered a pizza and I could not do simple math in my head to figure a 10% tip for the delivery guy. Be careful.
 
Scott@KTYR said:
https://www.airnav.com/fuel/
Have you seen this website. It may help with fuel stop selection.

I see you are planning to do this in one day. 18 plus hours of flying is VERY tough on your brain. Be careful doing this. It will effect your decision making abilities. I did a 16 hour flight dodging weather all day. When I got home and ordered a pizza and I could not do simple math in my head to figure a 10% tip for the delivery guy. Be careful.
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Hi Scott, apologies for the confusing explanation in my original post, I meant that each flight would be completed in a day but the journey there and back would be separated by about a week.
 
As far as making the trip, here's my 50-cents.

snacks should be low-carb. Most of us are susceptible to carbo-crashing, or "carb-coma".
when in doubt, fly hungry vs. full.
small frequent snacks (small handfull of nuts, a half a granola bar) instead of larger options (an entire sandwich).
 
Scott@KTYR said:
I see you are planning to do this in one day. 18 plus hours of flying is VERY tough on your brain. Be careful doing this. It will effect your decision making abilities. I did a 16 hour flight dodging weather all day. When I got home and ordered a pizza and I could not do simple math in my head to figure a 10% tip for the delivery guy. Be careful.
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I was going to bring that up, even though I believe he said it would be two 9 hour trips, separated by a week.

I am sure he is younger than me, but even when I was younger, I would not have tackled a 9 hour trip in one day without extenuating circumstances. The trickiest part of any flight is the landing, especially at a new airport, and at the end of a 9 hour flight you are going to be your least alert. Henning's gear up at Oshkosh was (supposedly) attributed to fatigue.

I am sure the OP knows this, but be sure to keep well hydrated. Also, I suggest carrying along a $20 pulse ox (and use it). Also a portable O2 tank might be a good idea.
 
For long cross countries I generally fly IFR

I Follow Roads. Typically lowest terrain, most amount of outs and most airports are relatively close to the major highways. While I am totally 100% all about GPS and Foreflight, too many VFR pilots are fixated on point to point direct magenta line tracking.

I did 22.5 hours in 2.5 days as a wet behind the ears PPL just following freeways. Load up on PB&J, snacks, drinks and enjoy the ride. Make a plan, but be flexible. Event though we flight planned each leg, rarely did we actually stop at that destination based on real time conditions and situation. Foreflight inflation at your fingertips makes those changes easy peasy.

Have fun!
 
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JOhnH said:
I am sure the OP knows this, but be sure to keep well hydrated. Also, I suggest carrying along a $20 pulse ox (and use it). Also a portable O2 tank might be a good idea.
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9 hours at altitude will wear you out, even below 10,000 MSL. Most of us are not acclimated to the altitude and will suffer from the effects of minor hypoxia. My longest day was 8.5 hours at altitudes between 7,000-9,000 feet all day. I was quite exhausted and had a hangover style headache by the time I put the plane in the hangar.
 
Croomrider said:
Your stop at KVMR offers only one runway which is fine if the wind is cooperating. There is another choice close by with cheaper gas and two runways, it's KYKN. You might also look at KTOR for the cheaper fuel on your first leg. I would definitely call before going to any remote places to make sure they will be open and the fuel is available.
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Yankton, SD is a nice airport, with a brick FBO. At least, it was nice when I stopped in several years ago, and there are two runways to accommodate crosswinds.
 
C_Parker said:
Hi Scott, apologies for the confusing explanation in my original post, I meant that each flight would be completed in a day but the journey there and back would be separated by about a week.
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WHOOPS!!! I missed that!!!.
Also FORGOT TO SAY WELCOME TO POA!!!
 
To echo what other people have said. I did a long day, Sedona to Chicago, at 11.5 for most of the day with no O2. We were trying to get as far as we could with the good weather we had, so we both decided to fly as long as we felt ok. Tying the plane down I realized how bad I was. My ferry pilot was better than I was, but I was a zombie for the next 3 days. I would wake up, make it to the couch and sleep.
Part of the issue was I didnt want to drink too much and have to land early, so I am sure it was part hypoxia and part dehydration. I will never put my body through that again. I would rather do the trip in 2 days each way and be human at the end of the day rather than push it and take a chance. And of course to add, I am jealous of your trip!
 
Have fun, adjust for weather and sight see if able.

My last super long XC has HUGE headwind that was not in the forecast for the area I encountered it ... I had made an extra fuel stop already as that wind was "supposed" to be only in the east Texas area near my over night stop (Austin) and not over the entire state of Louisiana. There are a lot of field without "tick" marks on the VFR sectional for Louisiana.
 
Guys, I really appreciate all the pointers.

I'm totally onboard with the stop in KYKN, but adjusting the first stop to KTOR will push me a little closer to required reserve than I feel comfortable with. I'd rather pay a few extra bucks in fuel than feel anxiety for 30 minutes before landing...

Additionally, I really like the comments on oxygen. I don't want to feel like a piece of crap when I get there, so I'm definitely going to get a pulse oximeter and some O2 just to be safe. Do you guys think a canula style system would work best or the handheld bottles? My aircraft does not have provisions for a built in system.
 
I went on craigslist and got two medical E sized bottles (large aluminum), cannulas, masks, regulator, cart, tubing, etc for $50. My doctor gave me a free prescription for getting them filled at any welding supply store. I upgraded the regulator to a pulse demand regulator from ebay for $25 (Drive Bonsai Model OM-812). The large tank can put out O2 at 6 settings for between 43.6-10.9 hours depending on the setting (1-6 L/min equivalent). I took my 150 up to 12,600 and saw that my O2 sat really did drop because I only had it on the lowest setting. Up to setting 3 and I was back at 96-97%. That would give me 17.7 hours of O2.

The manual does say that it is good for 0-10,000 altitude, but I don't think that anything will really change at altitudes much higher than that, maybe just calibration. Not like the pressure change will make a difference when it is rated to 3000 psi.
 
I would plan KGNG GOODE V4 CKW V6 MBW V100 ANW then direct. The MEA along that route is below 10,000 other than part of the way between Malad City MLD and Rock Springs OCS. This route adds 33 nm compared to direct, or roughly 3% to your total distance.

If you are looking for stops, I spent a day and a half waiting out weather at KFOD Fort Dodge, Iowa, last summer. (I was in a plane with a broken radio, the ceiling was 800-900 feet, and it's a class E surface area, so I needed an SVFR clearance to depart but had no good way to ask for one. Thus, I waited for a legal VFR ceiling.) I don't remember fuel prices but I did have nice conversations with the airport's denizens, used the courtesy car to explore town a little, was treated well, and would land there again. There is also a form of commercial air service that could get you out of (Fort) Dodge in the event you are stuck there due to weather or mechanical issues and absolutely need to be elsewhere.

I would definitely have a pulse oximeter on board. Oxygen would be a welcome addition but not mandatory. I speak from experience that flying at 12,000 MSL for a long period of time will result in O2 sats below 90% and that you will not even notice anything unusual while you're in the air. Having a way to check your O2 sats and top them up when needed cannot possibly harm you and can keep you from becoming impaired or feeling like you have a hangover the next day. They're not legally required for your flight, but if you have them you should use them.
 
I will often glance at charts before making my route- similiar to what was said about flying a major road, if there’s a reasonable route that takes me over a bunch of airports I’ll go that route- making “Emergency” bathroom stops, something’s not quite right should check it out stops, etc easier...

Bringing my bird home I found a route that added a whopping 30nm but had us overflying small airport after small airport...
 
I have flown some long cross countries as I have moved around the US. Plan what you want but it never worked out for me. Chicago to Elko, NV ended up being a 2 day trip.

Of course I was flying a much slower plane 100kt cruse. Biloxi, MS to Chicago 10hrs. Seattle to Juneau 9hrs. Elko, NV to Ketchikan, AK 20hrs ran into snow and could not get through a mountain pass.

I flew 4 hour legs X 2 and the final leg was 2 hours with a beer and steak for dinner..:)

Plan your trip and fly the weather.. Safe Travels and have fun.
edit: ha, ha and my Biloxi to Chicago (Round Lake, Il really) was VOR and sectional navigation no GPS....:)
 
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iamtheari said:
I would plan KGNG GOODE V4 CKW V6 MBW V100 ANW then direct. The MEA along that route is below 10,000 other than part of the way between Malad City MLD and Rock Springs OCS. This route adds 33 nm compared to direct, or roughly 3% to your total distance.
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I really like this. That plan not only diverts over lower terrain, but as I looked closer at the sectional it flies me directly over a number of additional airport. My original route was quite remote.
 
Both KVMR and KYKN are nice little airports. Both have a brick lounge building. My PPL was and still is based out of KVMR so I've landed there a few times. Note RWY 12 is Right Traffic and RWY 30 is Left Traffic. KYKN has 2 runways if crosswinds is an issue and is not much further than KVMR. Both should have fuel as I've never know them to be empty. Either airport, you may not see a single person while you are there depending on the day and time of day, but if you are comfortable with self service, won't be a problem.
 
I can't comment on the route out west and your route over SD looks good.

If it was me and I had that much leeway across the entire trip I would alter my return leg (heading west) to stop at Sioux Falls (KFSD) and stop at Maverick...awesome FBO and lots of runway choices. Then I would plan a full stop for the late afternoon at KRAP and fly Mt.Rushmore and Crazy Horse upon arrival to Rapid City.

That does one other thing for you. It has you stopping for the night with plenty of daylight leftover before crossing the big rocky stuff. That legs west could be much slower than you think because you can easily have 25kt headwinds even at 4500msl...you might not be able to sneak under enough to matter. So then your day will be running late leading to the possibility of night flight overy the big stuff in WY and west as you near home. You might feel pressured to finish the flight at night...do you want to do that at night?

And that also puts you thru the Crypt MOA at its operating altitudes so if they are active you might want to go North or South anyways.

I would make your first trip day (east) about speed and getting there with tailwinds.
 
Had a couple more thoughts.

You have roughly 9hrs of flying. But you'll also probably get up 90min before the flight to get ready and prep the plane. You have 2 planned stops. As my wife just said after I gave her your route...something always seems to come up. So in a way you should plan for an hour on each stop even though it can be done faster. So now you are at 12.5hrs total either flying or related to flying. That's a long day and still doesn't count shutting it down and tie down on the ramp. That can put you in night flight (not bad) but just another factor.

I'm closing in on 200 hrs and I think I'm just getting comfortable landing at new to me airports at night, but I prefer the larger Delta's if possible. They seem to keep the deer and other critters away unlike our little country airport.

It's also nice to get cheap gas, but I do like landing at airports with credible FBO. If you blow a tire at a country airport your 30min stop might be a lot longer than blowing it at an airport with full services (mx).

One more thought. It's a blast to fly on weekends and saves us vacation. But lots of smaller FBOs don't fix broken planes on Sat/Sun. For my last few larger XC I have used more weekdays just in case.

Sorry for the download. Your trip looks cool and makes we want to try it :)
 
Sinistar said:
One more thought. It's a blast to fly on weekends and saves us vacation. But lots of smaller FBOs don't fix broken planes on Sat/Sun.
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Found this out first hand. Winter, Dawson Creek, BC broken carb heat cable. Pulled engine cowls off fixed cable myself. In comes a part 135 guy, makes a 180 next to me. Blew engine cowls across the ramp. Unloaded passengers with engines running. He looked surprised when he looked at me with my finger in the air and pointing at engine cowls..
 
Sinistar said:
Had a couple more thoughts.
I'm closing in on 200 hrs and I think I'm just getting comfortable landing at new to me airports at night, but I prefer the larger Delta's if possible. They seem to keep the deer and other critters away unlike our little country airport.
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Both KVMR and KYKN have tall chain link fence surrounding them. Critters should not be a problem.
 
C_Parker said:
Hey guys, relatively low time PPL looking to take a long cross country next month. I'm ADSB in/out equipped, Forelight and onboard GPS, flying solo, in a C182.
Click to expand...

A 182 is a good bird for this sort of trip, especially solo. It's comfortable and will have performance to spare even up high.

I've broken the 9 hour trip into 3 hour blocks by making two stops, I carry 4.8 hours of fuel. I plan on flying high (11,500) to catch a tailwind on the way there (eastbound) and fly low (4,500) on the way back to duck under the prevailing wind, until I reach the rockies anyways (no less than 1,500 AGL). The trip there and back will be about a week apart, with the flights being completed in one day, providing weather allows but I will have some flexibility if conditions change. I'll watch for rotation of high and low pressure systems to take advantage of winds, and I can use Altitude Advisor in Foreflight. Besides the obvious of knowing and monitoring weather conditions, having some snacks, staying alert, etc. do you guys have any advice for a relatively new pilot on his first long XC?
Click to expand...

Be flexible. That is by far the biggest thing that will keep you safe. Be ready and willing to change the plan at any point. Weather, and to a lesser extent maintenance, will change your plans sometimes. I like to tell my passengers that flying is always an adventure, just not necessarily the adventure you had planned on. ;) Don't hesitate to alter your route or your departure time to avoid weather, even if it means your planned fuel stops all go out the window. And don't hesitate to land early for fuel, food, or to just stay overnight because you feel a little tired. By the time you feel a lot tired, your mental performance is WAY too poor to be flying an airplane, especially with limited experience.

It looks like you're based in Idaho, so I'm guessing you've gotten a bit of instruction and experience in flying around the big rocks? If not, I would highly recommend a trip up to McCall KMYL for some instruction with the folks at Mountain Canyon Flying. 2000 hours into this GA thing and it's still the most fun and best learning flying I've ever done.

Speaking of the rocks - They're not lit, and the later in the day it gets the more air currents they're going to be throwing around, which can get highly unpleasant if not dangerous. That's fine on the eastbound trip, when you'll be traversing the mountainous zone of your flight in the morning, but in the return trip, you'll be much more likely to face headwinds, and the mountains will be at the end of your flight. I would plan to land at sunset, whether or not you make it home. It'll also be a much more pleasant flight if you do the mountain leg in the morning on the westbound trip too.

C_Parker said:
I wonder if the fuel prices in Foreflight for KOFK are for real?
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Probably. I just paid 10 cents less than that at my favorite fuel stop here in Wisconsin the other day, and I've fueled at KOFK before because the price was good. But for @C_Parker this is a good stop to consider not only for the fuel price, but because there's a restaurant on the field. I would replace KVMR with KOFK in the plan - It looks like it's way out of the way, but only adds 8 miles to the trip.

I might also consider going KGNG - KGUR - KOFK - C77 eastbound (with the extra waypoint(s) in the first leg), and maybe C77 - KOFK - KTOR - KRKS - KGNG on the way back. If the headwinds suck, that gives an extra cushion on the fuel later in the flight, plus having the planned extra stop might encourage that hotel stay if it's prudent.
 
Many that have posted here should go to Google maps and look at the mountains between Logan Ut. and Opal Wy.
There really anything to worry a 182 pilot.

go look
 
PPC1052 said:
Even if you are not IFR rated, you might take a look at the IFR Low charts for some ideas of paths to take east that will safely get you through the mountains, and at what altitudes.
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That's a great tip.. someone a while ago pointed that out to me before I was IR.. and in a plane I flew that did not have GPS. I find the minimum altitudes depicted on VFR charts to be uncomfortably close for comfort.. but finding a Victor airway and flying that with a VFR altitude above the airway's altitudes gave good ground clearance and VOR assurance
 
Tantalum said:
That's a great tip.. someone a while ago pointed that out to me before I was IR.. and in a plane I flew that did not have GPS. I find the minimum altitudes depicted on VFR charts to be uncomfortably close for comfort.. but finding a Victor airway and flying that with a VFR altitude above the airway's altitudes gave good ground clearance and VOR assurance
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I have done that...had a flight once in hilly terrain through a valley...at night...and headwinds aloft were gnarly and bumpy. Pulled up the IFR charts and tracked the airways all the way down to MVA to be sure I was well clear of any terrain.
 
iamtheari said:
If you are looking for stops, I spent a day and a half waiting out weather at KFOD Fort Dodge, Iowa, last summer. (I was in a plane with a broken radio, the ceiling was 800-900 feet, and it's a class E surface area, so I needed an SVFR clearance to depart but had no good way to ask for one. Thus, I waited for a legal VFR ceiling.) I don't remember fuel prices but I did have nice conversations with the airport's denizens, used the courtesy car to explore town a little, was treated well, and would land there again. There is also a form of commercial air service that could get you out of (Fort) Dodge in the event you are stuck there due to weather or mechanical issues and absolutely need to be elsewhere.
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I'd second KFOD. That's my home drome and it's a nice airport with lots of amenities. And you're correct, we have Airchoice 1 that you can normally get tickets to Chicago for $65 or so.
 
Hey guys, getting close to making final preparations for this trip. My 182 went in for annual on Friday, wanted to get a clean bill of health before heading out.

That being said, I'm having a hard time deciding on the size of oxygen bottle. I'm battling with convenience/size and "real world" flows. I'd like the bottle to last round trip, and since the whole flight will not be high it won't be continuous. Your thoughts? I'm leaning towards 15cu. ft.
 
Why are you getting O2 if you are staying at 11.5? You just as a backup? Take a pulse oximeter with you, if you are concerned about hypoxia.

Also, always expect your trip to take at least 1 hour per leg longer than you plan.

Rgbeard said:
As far as making the trip, here's my 50-cents.

snacks should be low-carb. Most of us are susceptible to carbo-crashing, or "carb-coma".
when in doubt, fly hungry vs. full.
small frequent snacks (small handfull of nuts, a half a granola bar) instead of larger options (an entire sandwich).
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Granola bars are carbs bound with sugar.

Protein bars, trail mix and shakes are all good choices.
 
I’m low time also, and my longest xc flights were around 5ish hours. Strongly recommend the previous suggestions of flying as near to major roads and airports as possible, as well as calling ahead first to ensure fuel will actually be available. Ask me how I know that!

For onboard treats I don’t have an appetite while flying but water and Gatorade are great to have.
 
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