Long Cross Country Flight Planning

[oldShar]

It's like buying an aircraft --- you need to define the mission --- WHY are you going?
- To get somewhere in a hurry where you want to MINimize flight time? (You can do better driving)
- To MAXimize flight time? (don't draw lines or do planning)
- To SEE the sights? (defer to MAXimize or go Flight Routes)
- To add time/distance entries to your log book? (defer to MINimize and go DIRECT)
- To add entries to your logbook? (Sporty's won't chide you for buying extra books)
- Other?

 

[jtheune]

Nope I fly the needles as long as they're centered I'm good. When I look at the GPS too long my instructor turns the screen to something else and I fly the needles.

Are you using VORs or are you flying the GPS derived CDI?

 

[Shepherd]

You can fly direct using multiple VORs, assuming you have them. It's great practice, and it's a great skill to have. But..... It's a lot of work, both outside and inside the cockpit. Not something to try for your first long distance trip.
The guys have given you some great advice. Keep it simple, and have a backup plan.

 

[dell30rb]

Are you using VORs or are you flying the GPS derived CDI?

I gathered her instructor was switching the screen because she looks at the moving map instead of using the gps generated course as displayed on the CDI.

 

[saracelica]

I gathered her instructor was switching the screen because she looks at the moving map instead of using the gps generated course as displayed on the CDI.

Ideally flying the CDI generated by the GPS. I just wouldn't trust the batteries still in a hand held for navigation. That's just me. My CFII is cool but for my long solo XC's I had to have the checkpoints and times for all of them. We did PPL old school.

 

[Headspace]

For long direct GPS cross country work I will sometimes define checkpoints based on crossing radials and DME distances. It's not needed, though, unless the GPS loses integrity and if that happens you may get rerouted along airways or VOR to VOR unless you're right next to the airport.

 

[steingar]

I'll be working in downtown Columbus off Marconi Avenue and staying on East Nationwide Blvd. Just looking at google earth CMH seemed as close as anything. What are the issues with CMH, just expensive fuel or something else? I will certainly do flight following and file a flight plan.

I try and avoid big commercial airports. Issues with security and wake turbulence. And yes, bigger airports can get spend. That, and you meet better people at GA airports.

But yes, you will be closer to where you want to be if you land CMH.

 

[jonnyjetprop]

All good stuff. Remember to have fun

For the record (not that anybody will care):

I do exact what others said. Draw the straight line. Make changes if you don't like what you're flying over or thru. The trick is to only make one change at a time, as the first little jink may fix other issues down the road. At work, I follow the magenta line. I'm paid to do that. On my own, it just depends on how I'm feeling. I love trying to fly the line without GPS by just looking outside. I may need glasses, but they still don't need batteries. Sometimes I just turn left because something just looks interesting. The best route can be a curve. It's the beauty of GA.

 

[somorris]

I agree with Jeff and Cap'n Ron and others -- fly direct. I would call and talk with ATL Approach Control on the landline to increase your comfort factor. They can advise you. I would also have my course drawn on paper sectionals and keep up with my position there. I would stop at a smaller GA instead of Chattanooga because fuel will probably be cheaper. Somewhere like Collegedale, if you deviate to the west, or pick another smaller field. Call ahead where you plan to stop to be sure there isn't an issue with their fuel, or that they close early on the weekend (that happened to me once . Most of all, have fun.

 

[dell30rb]

In that case you have a good instructor. But training is not the real world. Once you are going places, you won't fly airways much whether you have a gps or not.

Very true, the only value I have found to using airways recently is the MEA is known, and sometimes significantly lower than the oroca

 

[nddons]

Great thread. Have fun, OP.

 

[perezam]

I got my PP back in October 2012 and am just starting to venture more than 50 miles from home (KPTK) and am in the same boat as Fly-Fa. Do the VFR pilots out there crossing several states purchase multiple sectionals, draw segments on each sectional for their waypoints, do the calculations and fill out paper/pencil flight plan log? The way I am starting to approach my longer flights is using the Garmin 430 (magenta line), Foreflight on my knee with same segment and segments programmed in and a paper sectional (have really on flown in Michigan so far). I use the Garmin for the route with Foreflight for situational awareness and track that on the paper sectional just in case ForeFlight craps out (its happened once already).

My other concern is the fuel burn calcs. Foreflight has not been the most accurate as it does not take into consideration taxi, top of climb, descents. I was/am still doing this the old fashion way using paper/pencl nav log and calc'ing fuel burns that way. I realize you can make some gross assumptions and err on the cautious side, but curious how everyone else handles that out there in the VFR world. Just trying to become a safer and smarter pilot.

 

[Fly-Fla]

You are ahead of me in that you have a 430 on board. The 172 I fly has only 1981 radios so no GPS. I have a yoke mounted Ipad mini with Foreflight, I have a full size Ipad 2 with Foreflight as a back-up, and I purchased charts to get me to Ohio as a back-up to electronics. For this trip Foreflight under calculated my fuel by 1.5 gallons or so each way which I thought was pretty close and probably accounted for pre-flight, taxi and such. I'm not sure a full leg by leg paper computation would have been a whole lot better. I stopped halfway on this trip because I wanted to take a break to stretch my legs and hit the bathroom, and this trip could not have been done on one tank anyway. Overall I was pretty happy with Foreflight after this trip.

 

[gprellwitz]

Just a hint if you're purchasing paper charts to back up ForeFlight on longer trips. If you're traveling far enough to cross sectionals you may find it more cost effective to purchase WAC charts.

 

[bluerooster]

Is 5500' a magic number with getting clearance to fly through Atlanta airspace, or do I need to be at least that high? It certainly saves a few miles to fly over ATL but I wasn't sure at what point in my trip I would know if I would be cleared.

5500' would put you below the outer ring of class ATL class b, by a wide margin.

 

[bluerooster]

Come to think about it. When planning a long flight, across more than one chart.
I'll lay them all out on the floor, match them up, and pop a chalkline, PtoP. Then modify that route as needed for navigation ease, and fuel stops.
I've never planned a flight by intending to fly direct to my destination, using the GPS, or KNS80. because for some reason there is never an airport with fuel at the right spot, so I gotta deviate anyway.
But I plan to fly direct to each checkpoint, or fuel stop.
And the KNS80 was a neat gizmo, which allowed you to fly "direct" using offset VORs.

 

[Wbauman]

5500' would put you below the outer ring of class ATL class b, by a wide margin.

Depends on where you are in the outer ring. There are a few areas that 5500 would put you under.

 

[perezam]

If I can ask another question. What is the best way to estimate the required fuel for the trip? Again, you can do the paper/pencil navlog and calculate the burn for each leg + taxi + climb, etc. or you can use an estimated burn of gph based on altitude, speed, wind (foreflight can calculate this as well based on some parameters). Trying to find an effecient yet accurate way to do this without necessarily filling out a full navlog. Thanks from the newbie.

 

[LDJones]

You are ahead of me in that you have a 430 on board. The 172 I fly has only 1981 radios so no GPS. I have a yoke mounted Ipad mini with Foreflight, I have a full size Ipad 2 with Foreflight as a back-up, and I purchased charts to get me to Ohio as a back-up to electronics. For this trip Foreflight under calculated my fuel by 1.5 gallons or so each way which I thought was pretty close and probably accounted for pre-flight, taxi and such. I'm not sure a full leg by leg paper computation would have been a whole lot better. I stopped halfway on this trip because I wanted to take a break to stretch my legs and hit the bathroom, and this trip could not have been done on one tank anyway. Overall I was pretty happy with Foreflight after this trip.

If your consistently high on your fuel burn adjust the fuel burn rate number in FF upward by a tenth or two until you're getting a more consistent result. Remembering, of course, this will always be nothing more than an estimate. Power settings and leaning technique can have a significant impact on fuel burn.

 

[RV10flyer]

Like Loren said.

I have fuel flow set at 12.0 gph, altitude at 8500 and speed set to 150 Kts on Foreflight. Even though my normal long xc cruise numbers are 10.3 gph, 12500 and 160 kts. It always works out close to time and fuel and I always run my engine the same way. 40F LOP, 2300-2400 rpm, WOT up high. Leave 1.5 hr margin initially then work from there to be safe. I have a fuel totalizer and float gages, so Foreflight is only used for planning purposes only.

On short burger runs down low...I don't fly far enough to worry about fuel as my two 30 gal tanks are always kept full to reduce condensation.

 

[tmyers]

Wayne, thinking about breakfast at PMH this Sat, Will you be around?

 

[RV10flyer]

Wayne, thinking about breakfast at PMH this Sat, Will you be around?

I have to work and save up from a very slow 1Q. They always have good food and service when we eat there.

 

[JHW]

Come to think about it. When planning a long flight, across more than one chart.
I'll lay them all out on the floor, match them up, and pop a chalkline, PtoP. Then modify that route as needed for navigation ease, and fuel stops.
I've never planned a flight by intending to fly direct to my destination, using the GPS, or KNS80. because for some reason there is never an airport with fuel at the right spot, so I gotta deviate anyway.
But I plan to fly direct to each checkpoint, or fuel stop.
And the KNS80 was a neat gizmo, which allowed you to fly "direct" using offset VORs.

do you modify your route so you never have to flip a sectional over to snap your chalk line? Or do you buy a 2nd sectional for the ones that need both sides ?

 

[Fly-Fla]

I bought some different color highlighting tape from Sporty's when I first got started. It's removable so you can change you route as the planning progresses. I used this for my route and thought it looked good. I switched, flipped, and rotated charts as I progressed to keep them handy, but never used them for actual navigation.

 

[Negreteplaya]

you will have a better fly if somebody goes with you. even to give you the soda, wáter, sándwich, or talk about movies. time will go faster. i flew once alone 4 hours ,and i wouldnt make it again, you have to enjoy the fly not stress you. good fly

 

[DTBorden]

I didn't read all the respnses but there were some sound ones. First of all, your proposed route isn't a "long" cross-country in that airplane, and second, dump that portable electronic junk and learn pilotage before the day comes that you need it and all you have is a tangle of wires and dead gadgets.

 

[oavalle]

I'm planning to fly from KMAI (Marianna, FL) to KCMH (Columbus, OH) VFR in two weeks weather permitting. Some of you may have seen my related thread about being a low time pilot which I posted a few weeks ago. I will be flying a 172P with only Radios for Navigation however I have a yoke mounted Ipad Mini and a full size Ipad 2 (not mounted) both with Foreflight loaded. I also have a Dual GPS to feed them both even though they both have internal GPS capability. I thought I might fly into Chattanooga (KCHA) as a midpoint stop for fuel, bathroom break, weather updates etc, however I just pulled this out of the hat for no real reason other than being about half way. This puts me on a course from MAI to avoid dealing with Atlanta before turning more NE. In this situation would you plot a course VOR to VOR or just fly direct using Foreflight? It seems if I zig zag from VOR to VOR I add about thirty miles to the trip, which is not a huge waste out of a 600 NM trip but is to be considered. Obviously using VOR's and GPS as a back-up gives me a secondary navigation option. The other questions is how high would you fly(excessive high level head winds aside). The highest I have flown is 5500, I'm in Florida so no real need to clear mountains and I haven't flown far enough yet to justify additional altitude. I will be flying alone and the plane has a nearly brand new engine so it should fly nearly at book numbers. Thanks for your thoughts.

Just fly direct weather and moa permitting and make sure that your batteries are charge


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[Fly-Fla]

Just to refresh, I already took this trip. I originally posted when I was doing the flight planning. I went from MAI to DKX where I stopped for fuel and a short break, and then went on to OSU. I used CTJ as a waypoint to avoid Atlanta airspace which I decided not to tackle this trip. On my return I went OSU to MMI for a fuel stop and break and then return to MAI again using CTJ as a waypoint around Atlanta. I did a full written flight plan and paper sectionals but used my identical plan in Foreflight as my primary. I checked off my landmarks and continued to tune VORs the entire trip to keep me busy. I requested and received flight following the entire trip. The plane I flew was N52922 and the trip pops up in flight aware for anyone interested. I started a website for our Club NWFlyers.org and I posted a couple of pictures from my trip.

 

[steingar]

Congrats to the OP, hope you liked my little metropolis. The only thing I would add is you can often overfly Bravos and avoid dealing with them entirely. For a trip of the sort you just took I'll try and put myself up at 10 or 11 thousand feet, where its cool and the air is thin. I couldn't get over Atlanta (12.5K!) but I've overflown a couple other Bravos this way.

 

[Jaybird180]

Thank you for sharing

 

[Fly-Fla]

Congrats to the OP, hope you liked my little metropolis. The only thing I would add is you can often overfly Bravos and avoid dealing with them entirely. For a trip of the sort you just took I'll try and put myself up at 10 or 11 thousand feet, where its cool and the air is thin. I couldn't get over Atlanta (12.5K!) but I've overflown a couple other Bravos this way.

Which metropolis was yours?

 

[steingar]

Which metropolis was yours?

The little one-horse burb that seems to surround CMH. Not too hard to hit the high points on a brief stop.

 

[bluerooster]

If I can ask another question. What is the best way to estimate the required fuel for the trip? Again, you can do the paper/pencil navlog and calculate the burn for each leg + taxi + climb, etc. or you can use an estimated burn of gph based on altitude, speed, wind (foreflight can calculate this as well based on some parameters). Trying to find an effecient yet accurate way to do this without necessarily filling out a full navlog. Thanks from the newbie.

In the Cherokee 180, I would carry 50 gallons of fuel when full, and 36 when filled "to the tabs". So for planning fuel stops during a cross country, I would plan for 10gph. That would give me 3 hours with reserve.
(3 hours, and I'm due for a break anyway)
Actual fuel burn would allways end up being 8.1gph.

In the Yankee, with 25 gallons on board, I would plan for 10gph which would give me 2 hours. It would usually burn about 8gph.

In the C182, I plan for 14gph, and burn about 12. with 60 gallons, I get 3hours with no problem.

Pretty much I flight plan on the conservative side, knowing that I'll burn less, and I'm gonna land in ~3 hours, whether I need gas or not.

When I was younger, I could fly our Cherokee 140, (full tanks) untill I ran outta gas. (took about 7 hours) But today I'd be stove up for three days.

 

[bluerooster]

Depends on where you are in the outer ring. There are a few areas that 5500 would put you under.

Base of the outer ring is 10k so 5500 would put you below it Shoot, you'll still be below it at 9500.
Now, the next ring (if you want to call it that) 3500 will put you well under any part of it. Going over the top of it will put you above 12k.
13k will give you 500' above.
ATL is the exception to the standard "wedding cake" that you get taught. It actually has more than 3 layers, and some of those layers have weird spots in them

 

[bluerooster]

do you modify your route so you never have to flip a sectional over to snap your chalk line? Or do you buy a 2nd sectional for the ones that need both sides ?

For planning purposes, I'll use an old sectional for the flip side, then I'll copy it to the flipside of the current one. And also program it into Qrouting, to be opened up in Oruxmaps, on my Android device.

 

[Wbauman]

Base of the outer ring is 10k so 5500 would put you below it Shoot, you'll still be below it at 9500.
Now, the next ring (if you want to call it that) 3500 will put you well under any part of it. Going over the top of it will put you above 12k.
13k will give you 500' above.
ATL is the exception to the standard "wedding cake" that you get taught. It actually has more than 3 layers, and some of those layers have weird spots in them

I see that now. When I posted I was looking at ff on my iphkne and it does not show that outer ring. I then pulled my sectional and I see that now. Thanks for clearing that up.